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How secular, really, is India?

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pakistan is the islamic republic of pakistan and by law the pm and the president of the country needs to be a muslim. Agreed but when we talk about a muslim society, the holy quran on which it has the bases gives equal rights to all non muslims that of muslims, even more rights then any secular nation can even think off. This for the only reason that most hindus too which fased discrimination being from the low cast turned into muslims. Pakistan may not be secular but minorites here enjoy equal rights. Talking about indian secularism why was babari masjid shaheed by the fanatic hindus? can you give me one sinlge example of that happening to any hindu temple in pakistan. Sikhs every year they vist pakistan to perform their relgious acts, how many of them face any discrimination from any muslim. We all know the real face of indian secularism, we have also seen it in kashmir and with sikhs too. What was the operation called that was launched against sikhs and killed hundreds of them. Point any that has happened in pakistan.
 
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pakistan is the islamic republic of pakistan and by law the pm and the president of the country needs to be a muslim. Agreed but when we talk about a muslim society, the holy quran on which it has the bases gives equal rights to all non muslims that of muslims, even more rights then any secular nation can even think off.

Er...I disagree with the quran giving equal rights to non-muslims part. But I don't think we should discuss the bad stuff about islam here...tends to ruffle some feathers.

This for the only reason that most hindus too which fased discrimination being from the low cast turned into muslims. Pakistan may not be secular but minorites here enjoy equal rights. Talking about indian secularism why was babari masjid shaheed by the fanatic hindus? can you give me one sinlge example of that happening to any hindu temple in pakistan.

Lol...how many hindu temples are there in Pakistan? For that matter, how many hindus are there in pakistan?
As you said....many of them converted...though I doubt it is because they just loved islam so much.
I've never heard of Pakistani hindus rioting and causing problems there. They are very well behaved.

Ayodhya is sacred to a lot if Hindus. How would you guys feel if someone built a Church bang in the middle of the big mosque at mecca? I bet it wouldn't last more than a couple of hours...lol...hell its unthinkable to even build one.

Even then the Supreme court intervened and put a stop to the nonsense.


Sikhs every year they vist pakistan to perform their relgious acts, how many of them face any discrimination from any muslim. We all know the real face of indian secularism, we have also seen it in kashmir and with sikhs too. What was the operation called that was launched against sikhs and killed hundreds of them. Point any that has happened in pakistan.

The operation was not agains sikhs. It was against separatists who happened to be sikhs. Ditto with Kashmir. It is against separatists and terrorists....who incidentally happen to be muslim. Don't try to be cheap and construe all this as religious bias.
 
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Er...I disagree with the quran giving equal rights to non-muslims part. But I don't think we should discuss the bad stuff about islam here...tends to ruffle some feathers.
You disaggree because its true. You dont wana discuss it because you dont have a moral ground to stand on, otherwise i would be seeing long copy and pasting of stuff full of craps.


Lol...how many hindu temples are there in Pakistan? For that matter, how many hindus are there in pakistan?
As you said....many of them converted...though I doubt it is because they just loved islam so much.
I've never heard of Pakistani hindus rioting and causing problems there. They are very well behaved.
This dose not mean there ant any temples in pakistan where hindus go to worship. You doubt it because it happened. Go and do some research on the rule of muslims in the subcontinent and when muhammad bin qasim came to sub continent and how the hindus from the low cast started converting into muslims.
They are nodoubt very well behaved but because they have been given equal rights and there isnt any discrimination regarding race, colour, religion. Islam doesnt discriminate any on race, colour, cast or religion and pakistan is based on that principles.
Ayodhya is sacred to a lot if Hindus. How would you guys feel if someone built a Church bang in the middle of the big mosque at mecca? I bet it wouldn't last more than a couple of hours...lol...hell its unthinkable to even build one.
Sacred place means you burn other sacred places that belong to miniorties.We are talking about religious freedom in india and pakistan so dont bring mecca in.





The operation was not agains sikhs. It was against separatists who happened to be sikhs. Ditto with Kashmir. It is against separatists and terrorists....who incidentally happen to be muslim. Don't try to be cheap and construe all this as religious bias.

Am i being cheap here for just exposing the worlds greatest democracy who tends to be secular too of her real nature when it comes to minorties how the dominant hindus of this so called secular nation suppress miniorties and thugs like bhual thakra are being suported and funded by government. Is this what you call secularism. You should be ashamed of yourself. Religious muders, burning alive of christian priests with their family, forcing them to convert to hindusm. Is this what you call religious freedom. What a shame it is.
 
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You disaggree because its true. You dont wana discuss it because you dont have a morale ground to stand on, otherwise i would be seeing long copy and pasting of stuff full of craps.

Er...I think you mean moral ground. "I disagree because it is true?" Yeah...rite.

Sorry buddy...i'm not getting dragged into this. I'll just say that islam (at least some forms of it) is not at all kind to non-muslims. That is my opinion, and I am not debating it on this forum.


This dose not mean there ant any temples in pakistan where hindus go to worship. You doubt it because it happened. Go and so some research on the rule of muslims in the subcontinent and when muhammad bin qasim came to sub continent.
They are nodoubt very well behaved but because they have been given equal rights and there isnt any discrimination regarding race, colour, religion. Islam doesnt discriminate any on race, colour, cast or religion and pakistan is based on that principles.

Well..I'm glad that the Pakistani version of islam is non-discriminatory. However, secularism is a lot more modern and progressive idea than your version of islam. Sorry buddy, but you gotta move on.
Oh please, muslim invaders conquered the subcontinent. You really think that they did this by being all secular and non-violent? The sole purpose of muslim rulers was to impose islamic superiority. You reallly shouldn't try and debate that. Only after islamic superiority was firmly established did some rulers decide to give a little leniency to non-muslims. What a great achievement that is.
But then lets not judge medieval rulers by modern ethical and moral standards. Its just not fair.


Sacred place means you burn other sacred places that belong to miniorties.We are talking about religious freedom in india and pakistan so dont bring mecca in.

Er...I didn't support the babri mazjid incident. I"m just putting it into context. Incidentally, the Mazjid was being used as a hindu temple for a long time before that. It was hardly an important place of pilgrimage for muslims.
Try building a church in mecca....just think of the carnage that will follow.

Ayodhya is like mecca for a lot of hindus. Don't you get it? Religious fanatics are the same everywhere. You can't just write off the whole of India because some hardcore hindus wanted to build a temple in their mecca.

Am i being cheap here for just exposing the worlds greatest democracy who tends to be secular too of her real nature when it comes to minorties how the dominant hindus of this so called secular nation suppress miniorties and thugs like bhual thakra are being suported and funded by government. Is this what you call secularism. You should be ashamed of yourself. Religious muders, burning alive of christian priests with their family, forcing them to convert to hindusm. Is this what you call religious freedom. What a shame it is.

Er...no I don't call it religious freedom.

Sheesh..chill...its not like i'm personally responsible for all the murders and riots out there.
Please don't try to change the subject...you were talking about Khalistan and kashmir...not bal thackeray.
 
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India is hardly secular.

It changed its Constitution to suit the Deobandis in the Shah Bano case! Imagine the Constitution is changed for a select group's desires and who do not represent all the Moslems of India!!!!

And the Christians are not taken as minorities and the Christians themselves do not take themselves as minorities. Nor do the others!

The reservations in jobs and education is not there for Christians or others. Only Moslems and OBC and SCs/STs have it ( and they are Hindus!)
 
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Pak intentions behind PGPC creation
by J.S. Sandhu

THE Archaeological Department of Pakistan had conducted a survey of Sikh historical gurdwaras soon after Partition. It had listed as many as 130 important gurdwaras. Detailed information about these gurdwaras was later incorporated in the book “Sikh Shrines in West Pakistan” by Khan Mohammad Waliullah Khan and published by the department in 1962.

These shrines include 28 gurdwaras built in the memory of Guru Nanak Dev Gurdwara Janamasthan, Nankana Sahib; Gurdwara Sacha Sauda; Gurdwara Panja Sahib, Hassan Abdal; Gurdwara Chaki Sahib, Eminabad; Gurdwara Darbar Shaib, Kartarpur; Gurdwara Bairi Sahib; Sialkot, etc. One gurdwara, Janamasthan Guru Ram Das, Lahore, marks the memory of the fourth Guru, Sri Ram Das.

Eight gurdwaras, including Gurdwara Budhu ka Awa, Lahore; Samadhi of Guru Arjan Dev; and Gurdwara Haft Madar, Sheikhupura, are in the memory of the fifth Guru, Sri Arjan Dev. There are 12 gurdwaras in the memory of the sixth Guru Shri Hargobind.

Each of these gurdwaras has its own property in the form of agricultural land and buildings. Such land had been donated by Sikh devotees from time to time for the maintenance and upkeep of these gurdwaras. Some of these gurdwaras thus have thousands of acres of land. The property of these gurdwaras is worth hundreds of crores of rupees. This property came under the control of the Waqf Board after Partition and has since then been systematically misused and misappropriated. Except for very few gurdwaras, where Sikh pilgrims from India are allowed to visit in the form of jathas on religious or historical occasions, not a rupee has been spent on the maintenance and upkeep of other gurdwaras by the Waqf Board.

Sikh devotees, who have acquired foreign nationality and could visit some of the gurdwaras (beyond access to Indian Sikhs), have come back with horrifying accounts. These gurdwaras are not only in a bad state of disrepair but have been systematically desecrated by local residents who use them as shelter for domestic animals and as ground for drying dung cakes. Shops have been set up on the gurdwara premises and essential routine of prayers is not being followed. These grand sites marking significant events in Sikh history are today but lifeless and decrepit buildings.

Knowledge of the sad state of gurdwaras in Pakistan has been commonplace among Sikhs worldwide, there has been an intense desire among them to gain access to all gurdwaras in Pakistan so that they can be surveyed before repair work is undertaken and moves are initiated with the administration for eviction of encroachers and for restoration of alienated land. On its part, the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) has been demanding that the gurdwaras in Pakistan, part of its domain between 1929 and 1947, should be restored to it. The SGPC has made several appeals to the Pakistan Government in this regard. The intensity of the Sikhs’ desire to accomplish this task is amply reflected in the fact that, in prayers said twice a day, every Sikh beseeches God to bless him with free access to the gurdwaras in Pakistan so that they can be maintained just as the gurdwaras in India are done.

It is worth recalling that the Sikhs had to wage a prolonged struggle to recover control of gurdwaras from corrupt Mahants, who were using the resources of gurdwaras for personal aggrandisement. The Mahants had taken care to keep the British on their right side. The patience and persistence of Sikhs involved in the struggle to liberate the gurdwaras was rewarded as the SGPC was formed as an elected body to run the gurdwaras. In the wake of Partition, the Waqf Board took over charge of the gurdwaras in Pakistan and the results are for all to see. The Waqf Board has fared no better than the Mahants. The pain in the hearts of Sikhs is so intense that it cannot be imagined.

Three centuries have passed since the 10th Guru, Sri Gobind Singh, ordained the Khalsa. In commemorating this event recently, the entire Sikh community paid tribute to the vision of the great Guru, resolved to abide by his ministrations and undertook not to spare any effort for the preservation and advancement of Sikhism. Many world leaders, including Heads of State and the governments of India, UK and Canada, have felicitated the Sikhs and made complimentary references to the honesty and integrity exhibited consistently by members of the Sikh community. At this momentous juncture, as all Sikhs celebrate and rededicate themselves to the ideals cherished by their Gurus, Pakistan has delivered a body blow to the entire Sikh community. The Pakistan Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (PGPC) was formed through a recent notification. Its autocratic chief, Lt-Gen Javed Nasir (retd) was quick to show his true colours, as he prevented the SGPC from maintaining its traditional right to collecting offerings made by pilgrims on important religious occasions, when Indian Jathas visit the important gurdwaras in Pakistan.

If the Pakistan Government was sincere in its protestation of concern for the Sikh community and if it wanted to make a symbolic gesture on the occasion of the Khalsa tercentenary, it need not have wasted its time in setting up the PGPC. Without even giving up the stranglehold that it has maintained over the gurdwaras in Pakistan, it could have announced a phased programme for their restoration and repair, and for the restoration of alienated lands.

Instead, it proceeded to appoint Pakistani Sikhs to the PGPC, so that it could project that the Sikh community was being allowed to run its own affairs there. It does not need any effort to understand that neither Gyan Singh of Baluchistan, nor Ram Singh of Peshawar, nor Satnam Singh of Sindh, and their three other Sikh colleagues have religious credentials and that they are but instruments in the hands of General Nasir.

One fails to understand why three Muslims have been appointed on the PGPC. Is there an intention to Islamise Sikhs in this Islamic Republic which is inexorably sliding towards obscurantism? Clearly, no discerning Sikh would regard the creation of the PGPC as a step in the right direction.

General Nasir has already displayed his real intentions. In an interview (April 23) to “Jung”, the largest circulated Urdu daily in Pakistan, the former ISI leader did not so much as outline any plan for the restoration of gurdwaras in Pakistan to their original glory but proceeded to suggest that the creation of the PGPC would provide a fillip to the “separatist” movement in Punjab, which, in due course, would “threaten the very integrity of the Indian nation”. One wonders why an experienced General should believe the myth that there is a separatist movement in Punjab and why he should lay store by a non-existent phenomenon to achieve what might be regarded as a military objective. Clearly, he remains burdened primarily by military preoccupations.

All previous protestations of friendship of the Sikh community ring hollow and it is becoming increasing clear that Islamic fundamentalist elements, who control the government, have decided to appropriate unto themselves Sikh gurdwaras and the properties attached to them, so that all traces of the Sikh faith are removed from the firmament in Pakistan.

Sikhs have combated such challenges in the past and will do so now. Let the Pakistan government and its operatives not forget that the raison d’etre of the Sikh religion is its ability to protect the meek from oppression by Muslim rulers.

The Sikh Gurus made several sacrifices in the course of their such campaign. Two of them, the 5th Guru and the 9th Guru, were martyred in the process and the four sons of the 10th Guru were brutally killed. Many other loyal adherents of the Gurus gave up their lives in the struggle to liberate this land from the clutches of ruthless and avaricious Muslim rulers. The Sikhs maintain the spirit even today and will not hesitate to shed blood, if necessary, to protect their religion and all elements of their heritage, no matter what the locale.

tribuneindia... Editorial
 
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Lol Salim....nice try but i wasnt impressed by it. Try better next time and with some better source.
 
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We are discussing India, and how secular really India is. We are not discussing how secular Pakistan is or Australia. Get back on the topic!

Thanks.
 
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Webmaster,

I totally agree with you.

My apologies.

Maybe I was influenced by how India somehow is squeezed in as comparison in some of the posts!

The fault is entirely mine!
 
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We are discussing India, and how secular really India is. We are not discussing how secular Pakistan is or Australia. Get back on the topic!

Thanks.

Actually Pakistan never claimed to be secular. :enjoy:
 
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What did Jinnah say on this?

You will find that in the course of time, Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state."

That is secularism!

If Jinnah meant it, then I am afraid his dreams are shattered by statements like:

Actually Pakistan never claimed to be secular.

Was Jinnah the founder of Pakistan and its destiny or those who subscribe to the above?

Can we go back to the topic of this thread?
 
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Actually Pakistan never claimed to be secular. :enjoy:

Exactly my point. Pakistan didn't even try. They aren't even off the starting line in this regard. How ironic that they point fingers at India for not being "secular enough" for their tastes, and boast about the royal treatment of minorities in Pakistan at the same time.
 
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Salim, this guy has proved, that it is useless trying to knock sense into him. IF he says proudly that the FIRST sikh inducted in PA is proof of Pak being secular, i think you are wasting your time. If he says that the fact that hindu's were 'allowed' to celebrate holi openly means that Pak is secular, you are wasting your time and i am sure your IQ has dipped a few points because of his 'logic'.

Let the guy live the way he wants to, let him have any opinion he wants, its not upto you to correct him or take his responsibility after he has repeatedly demonstrated that he does not want to learn.

Admin Edit: There is no need for personal critcism rather you may use the statement to critcize. Thread to be opened once my above message is read by everyone. Thanks.
 
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Allright, this is not only to this Marathaguy... It is to anyone who thinks that Pakistan is not Secular even the Pakistanis who are claiming so!

Er...from what I have heard, Pakistan was created for muslims, and non-muslims who wanted to stay in Pakistan were free to do so.
Look at your constitution. It clearly states that Pakistan is an islamic republic and follows the principles of Islam. What if some minority chap in Pakistan has no desire to follow the principles of Islam? Your own constitution is based upon religious principles.
Secularism starts with the constitution. Simply giving minorities equal civil rights is not secularism.

I can't believe that after so much proof you are saying this. We DO NOT compel them to follow the principles of Islam. They are free to go to churches, temples or whereever they want to! You are making up stuff just because you do not have any hard facts or evidence to back your idiotic claims and Pakistan-bashing. When have we ever compelled Hindus or Sikhs to follow Islam? Yes, but the religious principles and hadith also say that "let anyone who wants to follow a religion different than yours, let him do so" So we DO NOT impose Islamic principles on people of a differnet faith and if you think we do give proof rather than keep blabbering about something which you know nothing! Secularism is BUILT INTO those Religious Principles you talk about because even in the time of the Prophet Muslims, Jews and Christians lived peacefully together and the prophet himself said "let them freely practice their varios religions, if we will treat them well they will turn to Islam themselves"

Well bravo. I'm glad that they were "allowed" to celebrate Holi. Were they not allowed to do so before?

I said they were allowed "publically" last year with protection from police from idiot mullahs who were against it. Otherwise it was always at Mandirs and the areas surrounding them that they celebrate and celebrated. They were allowed to celebrate each and every holi! Don't make up stuff just to tell us about your chaotic mindset. Not everyone hates people because of their religion!

I'm sure you have loyal Hindus. Any middle class Pakistani will be loyal to his homeland.
But don't pretend that Pakistan is secular. Its not. It doesn't fulfil the basic tenets of secularism.

Pakistan is Secular even if you people think it was not meant to be!!! I repeat Pakistan is much more secular than India! It is about how people from minorities feel about their respective countries and how they think that they are treated. Just taking a look at what Hindus, Christians and Sikhs say about Pakistan will prove this. If Pakistan did not look after their interests then they would not be this loyal! Ask the Sikhs who joined the army. They are ready to forsake their lives for this nation. Have you ever seen such loyalty from a muslim in India and have you ever wondered why?

Well they need a reality check. Pakistan is no paradise.

Hindus don't wish that muslims would go away. They wish that their loyalties shift and they become a part of mainstream society, get their kids (including daughters) educated and contribute to the economy rather than mugging up the quran all day. No offence, but these are the realities of the vast majority of Indian muslims.

7V7XsATYCxY[/media] - Islam does not "permit" girls to study

Well, I think that your biases get in the way again when it comes to education for muslims. My cousin was rejected an application in City Montessori College in Lucknow even when he got 72% overall. His parents believe it was discrimination that got in the way! Its all about what people from minorities think! Well it does'nt really look like you want them to be loyal to India because you treat them with contempt and as unequals! Come on! How much will you deny? I have been to India and seen your attitudes!

Again, quoting individual sob stories don't help your case. Even I can start posting touching stories of kashmiri pundits being tortured and chased out of their homes in Kashmir.

Are muslims killed more often or is it the pundits and what about the backlash when some pundit was killed in Hyderabad. Well, as i said if there are too many "sob stories" in India then another Pakistan might be crated because many people from minorities in India are discontent as they suffer bias each and everyday! Ask the Pakistan Nationalists and Sufferers witness and they will tell you how many people they help shift from India to Pakistan and how loyal to Pakistan these people become... these people who were once from your country! You should be proud that you are succeeding in convincing them that India hates them and that they don't belong to India!

The policy of the govt. I feel is a bit too pro-muslim.
It isn't the govt. policies that is alienating muslims, it is a lot of other complicated factors.
As I said, if muslims became a part of mainstream society and stopped living in ghettos some of the prejudice against them would atleast start to dissipate.
It depends on which part of India you are from. From my experience, muslims are treated normally. In my school, among my friends I don't remember any muslims being treated any differently. I have plenty of muslim friends and they are quite normal chaps (no they don't hate India....of course, they complain about corruption and bad roads...but then who doesn't)

:tsk: I would presume that you are under the influence of a powerful drug which makes you say stuff which you yourself know is untrue. :what: How can anyone say it is Pro-Muslim!!!:hitwall: How can I have a conversation with someone who is suggesting that India is Pro-Muslim when muslims are so discontent and feel so unaccepted! Normally? Treated normally???... after all I have said you guys say this rather than be ashamed of how you people treat minorities and how many people are shifting from India because they aren't accepted as citizens. Fine call them "sob stories" if you want and continue ignoring them!

India is secular by law. That makes all the difference.
If people are prejudiced then there are a lot of complicated reasons behind it. Indian muslims aren't the innocent lambs that you are portraying them to be. They are responsible for a lot of the violence and bomb blasts that go on. Just because they are a minority doesn't make them innocent by default.

Indian police sucks. I know that already. They are a brutal shitty organization drowning in regionalism and politics. Don't tell me the Pakistani police is any better.

I won't! Because I admit it is not any better than Indian Police and I might even say worser because I don't stand by vague theories that are completely untrue. I stand by the truth, not by lies and stupid theories that try to bend those lies into truth. Please continue living in denial...

Ain't that convenient. Salim suddenly becomes a fearing subjugated muslim who is just trying to please the hindu masters. Sheesh. I don't know about your family, but there are plenty of muslim families that I know of, who don't have your attitude.
Hmm....maybe even they are too scared to admit to my face that they hate India...:woot:

Well as I said, muslims do not publically say that they are maltreated and oppressed in India and their views are not taken into consideration and considered as strongly as a Hindus. If it is a Hindus word against a muslims then it is the Hindu that gets off rather than the muslim! Anyway i am supposed to be half-indian so I know how muslims in India think. Many only admitted all this to me only when they knew I was half-indian and did not want to admit it to a Pakistani. This might be another reason for Salims fanatical point of view... his hatred for Pakistan.

I myself want to hide my face in shame because i have so much to do with a country that has no value for our expectations and beliefs and wants me to get out just because i am from a different religion! That is what makes me exceedingly loyal to Pakistan. If I had felt that India accepted me and wanted me I might have been loyal to India though i cannot imagine myself in such a way because I am glad that I am free from Indian discrimination and oppression. Our whole family thinks the same way! Just ask yourself what you are doing to your country. If tommarrow India breaks up into 2 pieces again people like you who ignore their problems and mistakes will be responsible!

It doesn't matter what Jinnah said. What matters is the rules. Can a non-muslims become PM of Pakistan? How can Pakistan be secular if the PM has to be muslim by law?

You want a person out of 1% Hindus to be Prime Minister and President? Is that democracy? So thats what you would have done in India if Hindus made only 1% of the population. Well that proves that there is bias in India and there is too much about Hindu supremacy going on there. Well in Pakistan they can be everything else but the Prime Minister or the President, why don't you talk about that? As I said unlike India we don't need to put in figureheads like Kalam just as a show that we are secular and all groups in India are homogenous and equally treated while they are not. Man these ordinary, poor sikhs and christians who earn less than 20 Rupees a day are willing to join the army and saying that Pakistan has done a lot for them and they would like to be "shaheed" in its name. Do you have muslims in India that vow their allegiance to India like that? I have never seen muslims being uncontrollably loyal to India. Why don't you meet with some of my Hindu friends and present them with the constant bakwas that "Pakistan is not Secular" and their community is treated badly. Infact my Sikh friend from Pakistan even slapped an Indian in his bulging face in Dubai for telling him similar crap you are telling me right now!

Don't blame India as a nation for the prejudices of people. Jeez...if your family is going through "hell" doesn' t mean that every other muslim family is too.

Yeah, yeah. India cannot be blamed for anything. Definately my family there only wants attention which is why they say muslims are not treated well! But obviously Pakistan can be blamed for everything including the Hydrabad bombings and Samjhauta Express! Salim is the first person I have met who has'nt admitted anything about the poor treatment of minorities. Maybe because he loathes Pakistanis so much. I am sure he talks about the same stuff when he is with other Indian muslims.

Our leaders accepted muslims as part of India even before India was officially created. Its the muslim leaders who didn't want a secular India....for various bigoted reasons.
Please don't try and tell me what my attitudes and prejudices are...you are failing miserably at it.

Well all the families I know are! My muslim friends also say that they have no political power or right. Truth is you simply do not want to integrate muslims into India. You want them to think of themselves as seperate which is exactly what they think because of your actions. Putting in figureheads and few muslims in high-ranking positions proves absolutely nothing! Secularism is about how each and every member of a minority group in India (or Pakistan) thinks about the treatment they recieve there! It is not about how a few muslims are at the top. We also have some very powerful Hindu businessmen in Pakistan and many hindus in Politics. Do we cry about it? Do we use that to say we are secular. No, because it does not matter who they are but it matters what they think! Their thoughts about their Nation will prove if the nation is truely secular and cares about them!
 
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Allright, this is not only to this Marathaguy... It is to anyone who thinks that Pakistan is not Secular even the Pakistanis who are claiming so!
I am one of them, so it is also to me
I can't believe that after so much proof you are saying this. We DO NOT compel them to follow the principles of Islam. They are free to go to churches, temples or whereever they want to! You are making up stuff just because you do not have any hard facts or evidence to back your idiotic claims and Pakistan-bashing. When have we ever compelled Hindus or Sikhs to follow Islam? Yes, but the religious principles and hadith also say that "let anyone who wants to follow a religion different than yours, let him do so" So we DO NOT impose Islamic principles on people of a differnet faith and if you think we do give proof rather than keep blabbering about something which you know nothing! Secularism is BUILT INTO those Religious Principles you talk about because even in the time of the Prophet Muslims, Jews and Christians lived peacefully together and the prophet himself said "let them freely practice their varios religions, if we will treat them well they will turn to Islam themselves"
Typing this statement or its equivalent 100 times is not going to make someone with an independent mind believe in what you say, so first tone down your rhetoric.
"let them freely practice their varios religions, if we will treat them well they will turn to Islam themselves"

There are two things- one in principle or what you want to achieve,i.e. what the rules/laws/books say? other in application
In principle:
For Pakistan to be secular, we bloody hell dont care what the hadiths or quran say? Get this. It matters only if you say Pakistan=Islam, which means you have already said that Pakistan is not secular. Dont bring ANYTHING from them. Regarding books, we will only see the constitution of Pakistan and the laws applicable.

From the preamble constitution of Pakistan which is usually the main ideal of constitution:
i)Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;

So it is Allah which you exercise your power from. Giving here the benefit of doubt, that you may have used Allah as a generic term for God. Not exactly a good begining, I will say.

ii)Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed;
So the ONLY the principles from Islam will be observed and by using the word "fully observed", so you have put the limits of freedom, equality and tolerance(rest not so important for secularism) as those told by Islam. You cant cross them.
Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;

Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities freely to profess and practise their religions and develop their cultures;
Observe what this says. Muslims shall be enabled whereas provisions for others will be made. So you will actively help the muslims but mainly non-interference with others.
Cognisant of our responsibility before Almighty Allah and men;
Faithful to the declaration made by the Founder of Pakistan, Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, that Pakistan would be a democratic State based on Islamic principles of social justice;
Only the islamic principles, if social justice demands more? If it demands that men and women should be treated equally, that one man is not equal to two women for giving testimony(against islamic principle), you have said only the islamic principle will be followed.

Your constitution has failed in delivering the IDEAL of secularism as an ideal and you are asking us to believe otherwise?

If you want to argue on this more, let us argue, but remember NO quran or hadiths.

Now the application part.

I said they were allowed "publically" last year with protection from police from idiot mullahs who were against it. Otherwise it was always at Mandirs and the areas surrounding them that they celebrate and celebrated. They were allowed to celebrate each and every holi! Don't make up stuff just to tell us about your chaotic mindset. Not everyone hates people because of their religion!
You have publicly allowed it for the FIRST time and you are bragging about it? I have seen huge processions of muhurram conducted EVERY SINGLE YEAR and have you seen us telling you. EVERY FRIDAY, during prayer times, the WHOLE of old city of hyderabad comes to a stop because muslims are praying ON THE ROADS and traffic becomes a complete stand still. Have you heard this before?

Pakistan is Secular even if you people think it was not meant to be!!!
We think it is not meant to be because your constitution never meant it to be.
I repeat Pakistan is much more secular than India! It is about how people from minorities feel about their respective countries and how they think that they are treated. Just taking a look at what Hindus, Christians and Sikhs say about Pakistan will prove this. If Pakistan did not look after their interests then they would not be this loyal! Ask the Sikhs who joined the army. They are ready to forsake their lives for this nation. Have you ever seen such loyalty from a muslim in India and have you ever wondered why?
Just in case you forgot, the person responsible for developing the missile systems and nuclear bombs was a muslim (APJ Abdul Kalam), who also happened to be our former president. The present prime minister (Manmohan Singh) is a sikh. The head of the ruling party is a christian(Sonia Mano Gandhi). You can never dream of giving us such examples and yet you give us some individual instances.

Hell, Pakistan's sole nobel prize winner's tomb was defaced because he was an ahmadiya.

Well, I think that your biases get in the way again when it comes to education for muslims. My cousin was rejected an application in City Montessori College in Lucknow even when he got 72% overall. His parents believe it was discrimination that got in the way! Its all about what people from minorities think! Well it does'nt really look like you want them to be loyal to India because you treat them with contempt and as unequals! Come on! How much will you deny? I have been to India and seen your attitudes!
In Pakistan 70% might be high, we dont get it unless we are more than 97-98%. So sorry no sympathy.

Are muslims killed more often or is it the pundits and what about the backlash when some pundit was killed in Hyderabad. Well, as i said if there are too many "sob stories" in India then another Pakistan might be crated because many people from minorities in India are discontent as they suffer bias each and everyday! Ask the Pakistan Nationalists and Sufferers witness and they will tell you how many people they help shift from India to Pakistan and how loyal to Pakistan these people become... these people who were once from your country! You should be proud that you are succeeding in convincing them that India hates them and that they don't belong to India!

good for them and good for you, but I can give you hundreds of individual instances (the chat bandar owner near my house was a pakistani). Do you want me to give his story? So let us take out our personal experiences in this.
:tsk: I would presume that you are under the influence of a powerful drug which makes you say stuff which you yourself know is untrue. :what: How can anyone say it is Pro-Muslim!!!:hitwall: How can I have a conversation with someone who is suggesting that India is Pro-Muslim when muslims are so discontent and feel so unaccepted! Normally? Treated normally???... after all I have said you guys say this rather than be ashamed of how you people treat minorities and how many people are shifting from India because they aren't accepted as citizens. Fine call them "sob stories" if you want and continue ignoring them!
If india becomes pro-muslim it is no longer secular!!!, it has to be pro or anti every religion equally. As I said, put a sock on the sob stories.
I won't! Because I admit it is not any better than Indian Police and I might even say worser because I don't stand by vague theories that are completely untrue. I stand by the truth, not by lies and stupid theories that try to bend those lies into truth. Please continue living in denial...



Well as I said, muslims do not publically say that they are maltreated and oppressed in India and their views are not taken into consideration and considered as strongly as a Hindus. If it is a Hindus word against a muslims then it is the Hindu that gets off rather than the muslim! Anyway i am supposed to be half-indian so I know how muslims in India think. Many only admitted all this to me only when they knew I was half-indian and did not want to admit it to a Pakistani. This might be another reason for Salims fanatical point of view... his hatred for Pakistan.

I myself want to hide my face in shame because i have so much to do with a country that has no value for our expectations and beliefs and wants me to get out just because i am from a different religion! That is what makes me exceedingly loyal to Pakistan. If I had felt that India accepted me and wanted me I might have been loyal to India though i cannot imagine myself in such a way because I am glad that I am free from Indian discrimination and oppression. Our whole family thinks the same way! Just ask yourself what you are doing to your country. If tommarrow India breaks up into 2 pieces again people like you who ignore their problems and mistakes will be responsible!

sob, sob sob.... get over it.

would have written but already getting bored replying to your sob stories.
 
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