How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Ajaxpaul]

Pakistan should counter the MKI's the same way they are countering our AWACS. Destroy them on ground. Let Lashkar i Taiba do the work

So it was a practice run in Pakistan for LET.....

LET countering MKI. ..must have hit rock bottom with regards to strategy .

 

[Srinivas]

Dude, as much as i would like to, i rather not disclose.....let Oscar return from his Oh La La break, then if appropriate, he can tell you the works. !!

Indians would have thought let those Pakistanis who are conducting those test trials believe that they ahve actually deceived us. In real time war scenario you will know the truth.

Every body have their own surprises and every body have their own trump cards the chest thumping you did in the previous posts in not worth.

SU 30 MKI is a heavy weight in the skies with omni role capabilities, This thread needs to be alive since the evolution of this wonderful machine has not stopped.

 

[DARKY]

Actually it's the Indians who are living in a nod land thinking that MKI is the best thing since Masala Dosa, but in an India/Pakistan scenario, the likes of Mirage-2000 will play a better part than the Flanker.....and believe me these aren't PAF's words. !!!

I take your words.. since Mirages and Mig 29s would play a lead role in any indo-pak conflict... more than the Su30 which perhaps would be used in support roles and to conduct strikes by taking a loop around the Arabian sea.

About Indians pumping about Su30... Its same as people in Pakistan or Pakistanis feel about JF-17... but both are for different roles.

 

[Windjammer]

Indians would have thought let those Pakistanis who are conducting those test trials believe that they ahve actually deceived us. In real time war scenario you will know the truth.

Every body have their own surprises and every body have their own trump cards the chest thumping you did in the previous posts in not worth.

SU 30 MKI is a heavy weight in the skies with omni role capabilities, This thread needs to be alive since the evolution of this wonderful machine has not stopped.

As if Indians knew what experiment PAF was conducting.....indeed chest thumping much. !!

 

[flightlieutenantshikari]

Su-30 MKI is an extremely potent platform,but just like any man made object has its own defects too!

 

[Srinivas]

As if Indians knew what experiment PAF was conducting.....indeed chest thumping much. !!

That will be known once PAF and IAF will fight in the skies

 

[Ammyy]

May you sleep on that.....for ever.

Yes I can sleep without any fear.... My forces are not inducting incapable fighters

 

[JohnyD]

As if Indians knew what experiment PAF was conducting.....indeed chest thumping much. !!

mullah ki daud majjid tak and pakistan ki daud china tak...so we know how far u can go!!!!

 

[rockstarIN]

5 minutes in a pre-emptive strike plan is like a lifetime! In Indo-Pak scenario where a lot of bases are close to the border, it will make a huge difference.

Now if you want to shrug it off as insignificant because it was done by Pakistan and not India, then it's your call. No one would give a shyt.

Such shabby claims can be made by anybody, I can say that..ohh we have veil in the name of LCA and AMCA is already on final stage of integration and running frequently DMZ. I have my uncle's so and so at IAF and bla bla. Nobody gave shyt either u or me.

Just chest thumping, everybody have surprises and 'counter-surprises'

If you pick up an unidentified aircraft heading closely towards your border, the idea is to scramble your fighter jets, just in case there is an intrusion. In any case. !!

Well, not really when a country have very good anti aircraft missile systems.

There is a surprise there for you.

 

[JF_17_Thunder]

Need is the mother of invention....
we will surely come up with something.... let the time come

 

[SQ8]

Ive been trying to post on this thread for the past two days but def.pk's bugs are stupid..
Gave up finally.

Such nice research.. all pointless to see an error.

 

[indiatester]

Ive been trying to post on this thread for the past two days but def.pk's bugs are stupid..
Gave up finally.

Such nice research.. all pointless to see an error.

Can you post a bit about the 5 minute aircraft test by PAF in DMZ.

 

[rockstarIN]

Ive been trying to post on this thread for the past two days but def.pk's bugs are stupid..
Gave up finally.

Such nice research.. all pointless to see an error.

We are still listening..!!

 

[Windjammer]

Yes I can sleep without any fear.... My forces are not inducting incapable fighters

Care to elaborate, which one of your fighters has any noteworthy combat experience. !!
The subject (MKI/Flanker) has not even been bloodied in the battle yet.....even the likes of MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 don't exactly have a feather in their cap

mullah ki daud majjid tak and pakistan ki daud china tak...so we know how far u can go!!!!

Better than yous running like a headless Chicken in every direction feeling insecure. !!

 

[SQ8]

Oh sure, trolling in front of your retired buddies(Daedalians) and posting that on youtube, is soooo professional.
And of course the news of the 'good' colonel's indiscretions automatically makes the Indian media liars.
Let me tell you sir a TRUE post exercise or a post mission briefing would never be televised or recorded for the general public.

And of course "praising"(condescending) the MKI will surely make all his over the top wrong claims right.Sir truth is not relative but absolute.

There is also a transcript if you wanna judge for yourself how right he was.





What I quoted was not from the manufacturer but the "30th Central Scientific Research Institute, Russian Ministry of Defence" which has now merged with the MoD RF 4 CRI.

If there is anyone that'll know about real time tactics assessment it is them.

Their tasks are as follows:
- Threat assessment and forecasting.
- Defining operational and technical requirements.
- Monitoring defence industry progress on the Russian Air Force acquisitions.
- Performance evaluations of the newly developed aerospace technologies and complexes.

The most common possible logic is that it comes from them and I will bet you on their word as they are directly related to the development of warfighting skills.






What do you mean by where is the recovery?
When the angle of attack exceeds its critical value the plane automatically enters stall. And now the post stall begins where the recovery takes place.
When the air flow is disrupted or flow separation that is at the critical angle of attack the separated flow is so powerful that further increases in AoA results in less lift and more drag after which the TVC along side other necessary control surfaces take over.
Disrupted airflow basically means flow separation and nothing more.
The fly-by-wire as we know manipulates the control surfaces along side the thrust vectored engine nozzles without the pilots input during the post stall.

"EXCEEDING the AOA" does not mean the MKI is flying beyond the AoA that is impossible. It basically means that it has reached the critical value of its AoA and thus is recovering in the post stall.




SIRJI what he is recovering from is the stall, post stall does not automatically mean you are falling. True it results to a fall in height as that is what we have learnt from the olden days but those were olden planes and MKI is no olden plane.
TVC prevents this fall that is if the maneuver is performed right.
The thrust from the engine is applying an appropriate force that is why we see a 'hang time', therefore NO he is not falling from the sky.
It looks like its defying the laws of motion coz in this case the object itself is applying asymmetrical force.

You do understand what happens in a post stall?
In a post stall control surfaces like ailerons and elevators don't work thus the use of thrust vectoring. I hope you have atleast heard of the term "post-stall technologies".








Oh no no no don't delude yourself into assuming that that is what we think, you yourself are thinking that the MKI is a "magic plane".
What we believe is that TVC can kick some major @@s and although it can't stay as long as per your standards as it does not have "magic", it can stay longer than its opponents.
you just explained TVC and yet you won't except it outcomes.
I'll show u after just a bit, the advantages of the AoA provided by the TVC and how it is necessary in air combat.

And of course the Indian pilot is not considered as an expert so we happily breeze past his claims after all the "good" colonel's words are set in stone.







Oh so do tell what advantage does non TVC planes have in the 5v5s that TVC planes don't?
No one claims that TVC can help dodge any missile or that it will be used in literally every phase of the flight or that it can negate everything.
TVC is only 1 aspect of the plane, its the complete plane that we brag about.
If you really wanna go there then the MKI again has quite an advantage with 2 radars more than enough for off-boresight detection and 1 IRST probe for passive detection, 12-14 hardpoints thus can carry more armaments, data linking with other MKIs, et cetra.
But that's a whole another thing.

When you are considering ACEVAL or AIMVAL the very implication of a TVC is to be considered lest what's the purpose of reading a paper on air-combat maneuvering when you are judging a pure vectoring fighter or a supermaneuverable TVC fighter by evaluations done on conventional fighters?

And please what is with you continuously attacking Kopp? I am not even basing my statements on any of his claims.
His resume itself will be enough to frighten both of ours combined so his words do carry weight regardless of your prejudices.












So this basically translates to the fact that modern aerial warfare won't exactly involve too much dog-fighting(or it could depends on the parameters) however when it does the TVC plane will have an edge most of the time.





Sirji you too have posted your arguments based on copy pasted knowledge,of course you'll find a difference between the question and answer if you are willing to put a double standard on ur arguments and not do the same for my rebuttals.



I don't see why some people will incessantly try to show that the TVC is of no use when almost all the powerful AF's(Your beloved PLAAF included) are continuously opting for it, when 6th gen fighters are based completely on TVC and when there is underlying proof of how well it has performed and is performing.

One last try to post this..and then I give up.

1. The video was not posted by him, but by a daedalien.. Id take trolling by an experienced colonel who heads requirements and testing at Nellis over any ridiculed electrical engineer anyday.

2. He states nothing that is overly incorrect, as he was at nellis.. he is probably just stating what he heard at mountain home AFB.
You have already made a big boo boo by making this statement.

post stall does not automatically mean you are falling. True it results to a fall in height as that is what we have learnt from the olden days but those were olden planes and MKI is no olden plane.

The idea of stalling applies to the wright flyer and the F-22 equally.
Lift as per bernoullis principle depends on the difference in pressure(or the force) exerted by the particles of the fluid(air) that move at differing speeds on the surface(wing). Hence the air that moves on the top of wings is moving faster and the one below it moving slower which results in the force from the bottom airflow having a greater push that we call lift.

Now when you disrupt the airflow, the difference in pressure reduces and hence lift.. and aircraft fly on lift.
The difference between aircraft like the MKI and the wright flyer comes in the excess thrust that allows the aircraft to quickly regain speed(which is why you will always see the Cobra flown without AB and at lower speeds) and continue flying.
Another thing, the reason why the Cobra is effective on aircraft such as the MKI , The Draken and a few others is that the downwash from their LERX is still active and provides control authority even at angles of attack reaching 110 degrees.

Now how is that useful in combat? Well, the Cobra's ability to drop airspeed quickly or basically using the aircraft as a giant airbrake was first thought up by the father of modern air combat John Boyd. He used the technique on pilots by letting them close enough and then pulling up rapidly.. keeping the rudder straight ..he was able to do this in a F-100 super sabre in a maneuver known as "flat plating the bird". everytime the other pilots overshot him, and got shot down.

However, when these pilots tried the same trick on boyd.. he would never get close enough and simply pull up when he saw the maneuver being executed .. come down.. and give them nice gun-camera shots of their heads.

...to be continued on why TVC specifically is not useful for WVR in multiple aircraft engagements anymore..and why the MKI unique TVC actually ends up being a disadvantage.

Currently off to Oxford street.. will return and post more.

@Oscar, so your mean is TVC have no advantage but holds disadvantage. well i wonder Russian air force pilots and their engineer don't get your simple logic?

No, I mean that TVC holds no quantifiable advantage anymore in multiple WVR engagements due to the advancement in missile technology and reliability.

TVC still had advantages.. in the uses that the US and the Europeans recognize and are applying it.
Not for the reasons the Russians think it does.

And yes, I think they are over doing it as it helps to sell the idea to eager beavers like the Indian MoD.
Which is why a non-noob force hits its head when it gets something like the MKI with TVC as it realizes that it does not need the capabilty on what is already an effective platform.
Hence you wont even HAVE an airshow where the IAF is seen displaying it. Because actual pilots that have flying to fight on their minds know better.

to be continued...