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How Much of Indian History Is Really True?

Common faith doesn't mean anything, if such was case entire ME would have been single country, Europe wouldn't have fought..and there is recent of example of country divided into two.............
Say what you want, Pakistan has a stronger core than India has or has ever had, you may mock the idea of a common faith, but guess what , you folks do not even have that in common.
No one is denying that Invaders have entered these lands that are associated with the Indus, but the fact of the matter is all those invaders have adopted local culture, language etc Kasur was invade by Pashtuns, the descendants of those Pashtuns speak Punjabi not Pashto, they have fully embraced the local culture and customs.....What was the point you where making in regards to Indus and foreign invaders?
 
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Say what you want, Pakistan has a stronger core than India has or has ever had, you may mock the idea of a common faith, but guess what , you folks do not even have that in common.
No one is denying that Invaders have entered these lands that are associated with the Indus, but the fact of the matter is all those invaders have adopted local culture, language etc Kasur was invade by Pashtuns, the descendants of those Pashtuns speak Punjabi not Pashto, they have fully embraced the local culture and customs.....What was the point you where making in regards to Indus and foreign invaders?


So you are saying different ethnics groups made together pakistan, then how does your figure all being indus stands scrutiny

Idea of common faith has nothing to do idea of being nation state, as some one said, only thing constant in history is change, with TIME people , culture, kingdoms, nations, faith......change...
 
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So you are saying different ethnics groups made together pakistan, then how does your figure all being indus stands scrutiny

Idea of common faith has nothing to do idea of being nation state, as some one said, only thing constant in history is change, with TIME people , culture, kingdoms, nations, faith......change...
Of course different ethnicities make up Pakistan, who has denied this, however they do have a common theme which is common culture due to religious beliefs, what the HELL do you guys have in common, you can argue all you want about whether religion is a sufficient bond, however that at least we have in common, what the hell have you guys got in common.
 
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So much of fight over history and that to without knowing the history, or probably cannot associate with history as there was nothing like history of Pakistan.

Getting back to topic, firstly the definition of nation was not like what you try to make now, in past Bharat Khanda was a region, which had many kingdoms, like how we have many states now all of them where associated one common geographic region like how we read national boundaries these days.

Those who talk about there was no India and britishers where one who made India, I must say thats only one part the name India was not there, but it was and has always been bharat. Interestingly the whole concept of Bharat has been very well defined in vedic literatures, thats before British or even Islam came into reality.

Please read following to understand whats Bharat Khanda and how it was defined historically
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharata_Khanda

To further understand how Vedic literature explained further about planet, read this very interesting article

http://www.hitxp.com/articles/histo...hy-jambudvipa-bharathavarsha-bharatha-khanda/

Vedic Cosmology itself is a very big subject, but this will help you understand how well versed and learned the vedic era was, they not only defined Bharat Khanda, they went ahead with much more, read here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambudvipa

Even today when a proper puja is done, the priest mention two things the time as per hindu calendar and location, which starts like Jambudvipa, Bharat Khanda, Bharat Varsha, <present location as per vedic details>, so someone jumping up with a gun saying there was nothing like Bharat before 1947 need to read and understand it might be true for Pakistan, its not true for India (bharat), we have documented history. Only thing is today you put in terms of country and where as vedic past put it as region constituting of various kingdoms.
 
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lol abusive?? what is abusive in it? well i tell you the meaning chut= roof , chuchi= umbrella or say chatri as i said indian term .:hitwall::hitwall::hitwall:
Let the MODs decide what that word means in Hindi and Urdu since roof in Hindi / Urdu is CHATT and Umbrella spells in Hindi / Urdu as Chatri.

@waz @Oscar
Kindly do some favor to ban this abusive bad mouth troll.
 
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Of course different ethnicities make up Pakistan, who has denied this, however they do have a common theme which is common culture due to religious beliefs, what the HELL do you guys have in common, you can argue all you want about whether religion is a sufficient bond, however that at least we have in common, what the hell have you guys got in common.
You are going on loop, if common faith is all that take to make or break nation,then you have lost that argument long time break.

Nation state is not just having common faith, if so India would not have existed even decade after existence.
 
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You are going on loop, if common faith is all that take to make or break nation,then you have lost that argument long time break.

Nation state is not just having common faith, if so India would not have existed even decade after existence.

Bangladesh was never going to work as East Pakistan, it was a strategic error to make them a part of us for obvious historical and geographical reasons and why has India not split up, thank your security forces who have waged war on dissident ever since your nations inception in 47, amnesty will corroborate all the stories about rape rooms, assassinations and torture your security forces have used so effectively in order to combat the 20 insurgencies not including Kashmir as the kashmiri are not insurgents but freedom fighters who want to end the illegal Indian occupation in their territory want further clarification as you seem to be somewhat confused with English, those Sikh separatists fighting for a independent Khalistan are INSURGENTS as under International law Amritsar is part of India, those kashmiri fighting in Srinagar are freedom fighters as the International community (UN) considers Kashmir to be disputed territory which has to be resolved via a plebiscite comprende.
 
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But there was a continuos Hindu Civilisation ALL through out SOUTH Asia till 1947

The migration after 1947 only changed the demographics ; NOT the history of SOUTH ASIA

Hindus lived from Peshawar in the West upto Chitagong in the East till 1947

After Partition It was Hindus who CONSOLIDATED as India

The civilisational and cultural unity ;sameness and commonalities HELPED
to form INDIA

India -- the STATE is a political entity which was FORMED from the existing
Land and people who were UNITED by Hinduism

Nehru and upper-class secular Brahmins in Congress helped consolidate India.

The fanatical Hindus who I assume you're talking about only stoked tensions by demanding the imposition of Hindi on Southern states, demanding laws protecting the 'Hindu way of life' and demanded that minorities submit to 'Hindu culture'. Your RSS and VHP chachas did barely anything to consolidate India. Socialist Nehru built your institutions. Secular Ambedkar wrote your constitution. Leftist Indira brought India military prestige and made it a regional power. Western-educated Manmohan Singh liberalized your markets. All the fanatical Hindus did was participate in the occasional riot and destroy a masjid or two.
 
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So let me get this straight. After reading 3 pages of the thread this is what I get:-

There was nothing called India b4 1947. Its all a conspiracy that the this term is used b4 that period. Like there was no east INDIA company. There was no columbus searching for INDIA. He did not name native of an unknown land as INDIANS.

But Pakistan has 5000 yrs old history.

India was a geographical expression like Balkans, Arabia or Lavent.
 
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Nehru and upper-class secular Brahmins in Congress helped consolidate India.

The fanatical Hindus who I assume you're talking about only stoked tensions by demanding the imposition of Hindi on Southern states, demanding laws protecting the 'Hindu way of life' and demanded that minorities submit to 'Hindu culture'. Your RSS and VHP chachas did barely anything to consolidate India. Socialist Nehru built your institutions. Secular Ambedkar wrote your constitution. Leftist Indira brought India military prestige and made it a regional power. Western-educated Manmohan Singh liberalized your markets. All the fanatical Hindus did was participate in the occasional riot and destroy a masjid or two.

Chacha, analogy to achi hai per fundamentals bhool gaye aap.
Sarva Dharma Sama Bhava has been the guleing factor, Unlike Muslims, hindus have no issues in going to gurudwara, budhist pagodas, Jain Mandirs, Church or for that matter to dargahs and this has what built the fibre of strong India, there could be some bad apples in a truck, but we ignore then and keep them out of daily basket. So you might look things individualistically but we see it collectively.

And I am very sure you dont know what RSS or VHP is and what are there objectives.
RSS is a Nationalist organisation working to promote nationalism and social services across the country. The affiliates of RSS comes to be known as the sangh parivar. These affiliates include ABVP, BJP, BMS etc . Vishwa Hindu Parishad or world hindu council is an international organisation to promote and protect hinduism and its culture.
Coming to major differences:
  • RSS is nationalistic based on ideology of hindutva or cultural nationalism whereas VHP is more based on hinduism or hindu religion.
  • RSS leaders are sewaks who have devoted their services to motherland whereas VHP is dominated by religious leaders.
So cherry picking some words and building a story that sounds logical doesnt really mean it makes a logical sense too :P
 
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@PaklovesTurkiye Something you may want to read, musing of Koenraad Eist on his blog. Read up about him before you start:-)


MONDAY, JULY 23, 2012

The British were not guilty of Partition; somebody else was


The easiest way before an Indian audience to get hands clapping, is to accuse the British of the Partition of India. Try it for yourself and say out loud: “Partition was engineered by the wily Britishers in their nefarious design of ‘divide and rule’”, success assured. And the applause is sure to follow no matter whether the audience, whose sensibilities you may not know, is Gandhian, Nehruvian-secularist or Hindu nationalist. Yes, Hindu nationalist too.


“Jinnah was brainwashed into dividing India”, I read in RSS mouthpiece Organiser. Well, if it is that easy, why doesn’t the RSS brainwash the Indian Muslims into becoming India-loving Hindus? Incidentally, how is it done, this “brainwashing”? In reality, the Hindu nationalists are taking a cheap shot at the British in order to mask their fear of pinpointing Muslim guilt.


One would have expected at least Mahatma murderer Nathuram Godse to have criticized Islam, apart from laying as much of the blame as possible at Gandhi’s feet. But Godse says very little about the guilt for Partition. He accuses the British of a “divide and rule” policy, alright, but doesn’t make this the cause of the Pakistan movement. He accuses Gandhi of not countering the Muslim League’s demand of Partition with his trademark means of action, viz. the fast unto death; but he does not go into the question of why the Muslim League made this demand in the first place. So, even among Godse’s fans you won’t find many articulate opponents of the British conspiracy thesis.


In this article, I will argue that the British had nothing to do with Partition, and that this was a purely Muslim operation necessitated by the present democratic age’s belief in numbers. In the medieval period, the Muslims constituted far less than the 24% of the Indian population which they were in the 1940s, yet they ruled. Mohammed Ali Jinnah thought that this was no longer possible in modern times, so if they wanted to be in power, they needed a smaller country where they would constitute the majority. So, the Two-Nation Theory espoused by the Muslim League necessitated two separate states, one of which would have a Muslim majority.


To be sure, the British were guilty of many things, and the fixation of Hindu nationalists on them is understandable. Principally, they caused several very serious famines, they dismantled the technology and economic structure of India, and they imposed a foreign ideology that harmed the natives’ self-respect. This did not make British rule “the biggest crime in history”, as L.K. Advani claims on his blog (15 July 2012), but it was pretty bad. However, none of that made them guilty of Partition. Nor did their policy of “divide and rule” cause the pre-colonial or post-colonial (and generally not even the colonial) hostility between Hindus and Muslims. It was a tactic used at the negotiation table, not meant for the streets (where riots would only upset economic life), much less for a final Partition of the Indian empire.


Viceroys Lord Victor Linlithgow and Lord Archibald Wavell told Jinnah to his face that they would not countenance the division of their nice and neat Indian empire, not even in the event of decolonization. Their successor, Lord Louis Mountbatten, only accepted Partition because the Muslim League threatened and started violence. Congress leaders did the same, including even Mahatma Gandhi in June 1947. All his so-called fasts unto death, his promise that “India will only be divided over my dead body”, proved hollow in the face of the real chance that these opponents would not give in, so that his fast would only be concluded with his death. .


It is only the fledgling Cold War that made the British and also the Americans see a silver lining in the Partition, viz. that one of the parties would join the Western camp and provide it an outpost to monitor the Soviet threat. This was apparently also what made Lord Mountbatten more pliable. But it was only in 1945 that the Soviet ally became an enemy, five years after the Muslim League adopted the Pakistan resolution, and more than ten years after the idea of Pakistan was first mooted.


In reality, the ideology of Partition was rooted in Islam. According to Islam, Muslims must always be in power. Thus, Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women but non-Muslim men are not allowed to marry Muslim women because wives are deemed to be at the husbands’ command. In the Middle Ages, Muslim minorities had seemed to subdue the Hindus by military means, and Muslim leaders with a medieval mindset concluded logically that numbers were unimportant to decide who will dominate whom. Thus, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad (who had given an emigration fatwa during the Khilafat movement) is mis-termed a Nationalist Muslim but aimed in fact at the Islamic domination of the whole of India. However, Jinnah had interiorized the modern value of democracy and didn’t dare to ask for more than a country in which Muslims would form the majority.


Islam is against multiculturalism unless it is treated with utmost respect and has at least the perspective of becoming dominant. By contrast, the Hindu nationalists including Nathuram Godse were prepared to give the Muslims far-reaching concessions in order to keep India united. They were not guilty, Congress was not guilty when it proved insufficiently accommodating to the League, and the British rulers were not guilty. If a section of the Muslims had not desired Partition, then Partition would never have happened.


Hindus who blame the British for Partition, show that they are afraid of the truth, and afraid of Islam. It is far easier to accuse the British, who have safely departed, than to lay the blame at the door of Islam. Blaming Islam opens a can of worms, it is difficult to deal with this religion. It is a challenge to one’s courage, but it is mainly a challenge to one’s intelligence. If you are deficient in these departments, then go ahead and blame the British.


On the other hand, if you have courage and intelligence, it should be easy to face the fact of Muslim causation of the Partition of India. Today, it takes a moderate dosis of courage to criticize Islam: you risk the ire of the institutions (and your job if you are a scholar in the Humanities), the violence of some indignant Muslim, and if you are a Hindu, also the displeasure of your fellow Hindus. But these risks are manageable, and as I will explain on some future occasion, I do not buy the myth of Hindu lack of bravery. Criticizing Islam also requires a large amount on intelligence, viz. the power to discriminate between causes (the doctrine of Islam) and symptoms (the behavior of Muslims, only partly caused by this doctrine), and the balancing act between uncompromising criticism of the doctrine and sympathy at the human level. Even you could have been born and brought up as a Muslim and developed an attachment for Islam’s irrational beliefs. If you believe in reincarnation, you should realize that you even could have been a Muslim, perhaps several times over. So, responsibly criticizing Islam and its role in the Partition of India requires intelligence.


It is here that I have more reason to worry. Though Hindus have shown great intelligence in the literature of the past and ICT initiatives of the present, they have mostly failed to apply their intelligence to the Islam problem, though this is staring them in the face every day. But I am confident that now you will do something about it.


http://koenraadelst.blogspot.in/2012/07/the-british-were-not-guilty-of.html


@Spectre @Nilgiri @nair @Star Wars @Soumitra

@scorpionx @footmarks

@Joe Shearer
 
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@PaklovesTurkiye Something you may want to read, musing of Koenraad Eist on his blog. Read up about him before you start:-)


MONDAY, JULY 23, 2012

The British were not guilty of Partition; somebody else was


The easiest way before an Indian audience to get hands clapping, is to accuse the British of the Partition of India. Try it for yourself and say out loud: “Partition was engineered by the wily Britishers in their nefarious design of ‘divide and rule’”, success assured. And the applause is sure to follow no matter whether the audience, whose sensibilities you may not know, is Gandhian, Nehruvian-secularist or Hindu nationalist. Yes, Hindu nationalist too.


“Jinnah was brainwashed into dividing India”, I read in RSS mouthpiece Organiser. Well, if it is that easy, why doesn’t the RSS brainwash the Indian Muslims into becoming India-loving Hindus? Incidentally, how is it done, this “brainwashing”? In reality, the Hindu nationalists are taking a cheap shot at the British in order to mask their fear of pinpointing Muslim guilt.


One would have expected at least Mahatma murderer Nathuram Godse to have criticized Islam, apart from laying as much of the blame as possible at Gandhi’s feet. But Godse says very little about the guilt for Partition. He accuses the British of a “divide and rule” policy, alright, but doesn’t make this the cause of the Pakistan movement. He accuses Gandhi of not countering the Muslim League’s demand of Partition with his trademark means of action, viz. the fast unto death; but he does not go into the question of why the Muslim League made this demand in the first place. So, even among Godse’s fans you won’t find many articulate opponents of the British conspiracy thesis.


In this article, I will argue that the British had nothing to do with Partition, and that this was a purely Muslim operation necessitated by the present democratic age’s belief in numbers. In the medieval period, the Muslims constituted far less than the 24% of the Indian population which they were in the 1940s, yet they ruled. Mohammed Ali Jinnah thought that this was no longer possible in modern times, so if they wanted to be in power, they needed a smaller country where they would constitute the majority. So, the Two-Nation Theory espoused by the Muslim League necessitated two separate states, one of which would have a Muslim majority.


To be sure, the British were guilty of many things, and the fixation of Hindu nationalists on them is understandable. Principally, they caused several very serious famines, they dismantled the technology and economic structure of India, and they imposed a foreign ideology that harmed the natives’ self-respect. This did not make British rule “the biggest crime in history”, as L.K. Advani claims on his blog (15 July 2012), but it was pretty bad. However, none of that made them guilty of Partition. Nor did their policy of “divide and rule” cause the pre-colonial or post-colonial (and generally not even the colonial) hostility between Hindus and Muslims. It was a tactic used at the negotiation table, not meant for the streets (where riots would only upset economic life), much less for a final Partition of the Indian empire.


Viceroys Lord Victor Linlithgow and Lord Archibald Wavell told Jinnah to his face that they would not countenance the division of their nice and neat Indian empire, not even in the event of decolonization. Their successor, Lord Louis Mountbatten, only accepted Partition because the Muslim League threatened and started violence. Congress leaders did the same, including even Mahatma Gandhi in June 1947. All his so-called fasts unto death, his promise that “India will only be divided over my dead body”, proved hollow in the face of the real chance that these opponents would not give in, so that his fast would only be concluded with his death. .


It is only the fledgling Cold War that made the British and also the Americans see a silver lining in the Partition, viz. that one of the parties would join the Western camp and provide it an outpost to monitor the Soviet threat. This was apparently also what made Lord Mountbatten more pliable. But it was only in 1945 that the Soviet ally became an enemy, five years after the Muslim League adopted the Pakistan resolution, and more than ten years after the idea of Pakistan was first mooted.


In reality, the ideology of Partition was rooted in Islam. According to Islam, Muslims must always be in power. Thus, Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women but non-Muslim men are not allowed to marry Muslim women because wives are deemed to be at the husbands’ command. In the Middle Ages, Muslim minorities had seemed to subdue the Hindus by military means, and Muslim leaders with a medieval mindset concluded logically that numbers were unimportant to decide who will dominate whom. Thus, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad (who had given an emigration fatwa during the Khilafat movement) is mis-termed a Nationalist Muslim but aimed in fact at the Islamic domination of the whole of India. However, Jinnah had interiorized the modern value of democracy and didn’t dare to ask for more than a country in which Muslims would form the majority.


Islam is against multiculturalism unless it is treated with utmost respect and has at least the perspective of becoming dominant. By contrast, the Hindu nationalists including Nathuram Godse were prepared to give the Muslims far-reaching concessions in order to keep India united. They were not guilty, Congress was not guilty when it proved insufficiently accommodating to the League, and the British rulers were not guilty. If a section of the Muslims had not desired Partition, then Partition would never have happened.


Hindus who blame the British for Partition, show that they are afraid of the truth, and afraid of Islam. It is far easier to accuse the British, who have safely departed, than to lay the blame at the door of Islam. Blaming Islam opens a can of worms, it is difficult to deal with this religion. It is a challenge to one’s courage, but it is mainly a challenge to one’s intelligence. If you are deficient in these departments, then go ahead and blame the British.


On the other hand, if you have courage and intelligence, it should be easy to face the fact of Muslim causation of the Partition of India. Today, it takes a moderate dosis of courage to criticize Islam: you risk the ire of the institutions (and your job if you are a scholar in the Humanities), the violence of some indignant Muslim, and if you are a Hindu, also the displeasure of your fellow Hindus. But these risks are manageable, and as I will explain on some future occasion, I do not buy the myth of Hindu lack of bravery. Criticizing Islam also requires a large amount on intelligence, viz. the power to discriminate between causes (the doctrine of Islam) and symptoms (the behavior of Muslims, only partly caused by this doctrine), and the balancing act between uncompromising criticism of the doctrine and sympathy at the human level. Even you could have been born and brought up as a Muslim and developed an attachment for Islam’s irrational beliefs. If you believe in reincarnation, you should realize that you even could have been a Muslim, perhaps several times over. So, responsibly criticizing Islam and its role in the Partition of India requires intelligence.


It is here that I have more reason to worry. Though Hindus have shown great intelligence in the literature of the past and ICT initiatives of the present, they have mostly failed to apply their intelligence to the Islam problem, though this is staring them in the face every day. But I am confident that now you will do something about it.


http://koenraadelst.blogspot.in/2012/07/the-british-were-not-guilty-of.html

Thankz...:-) :tup:
 
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Bangladesh was never going to work as East Pakistan, it was a strategic error to make them a part of us for obvious historical and geographical reasons and why has India not split up, thank your security forces who have waged war on dissident ever since your nations inception in 47, amnesty will corroborate all the stories about rape rooms, assassinations and torture your security forces have used so effectively in order to combat the 20 insurgencies not including Kashmir as the kashmiri are not insurgents but freedom fighters who want to end the illegal Indian occupation in their territory want further clarification as you seem to be somewhat confused with English, those Sikh separatists fighting for a independent Khalistan are INSURGENTS as under International law Amritsar is part of India, those kashmiri fighting in Srinagar are freedom fighters as the International community (UN) considers Kashmir to be disputed territory which has to be resolved via a plebiscite comprende.


As I said earlier mistake or not, faith based nation is hollow argument.

As for rest of the explanation, better find the different thread to discuss merits of your statements
 
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What these Ganga lot do is now that they have a country (as virgin as Pakistan as both dropped in 1947) but because Ganga carries the name "India" they think they now have ownership over the entire history of what the British built - British India.

If I ever took Pakistan over I would simply change the name of Pakistan to "Republic of Asia" and then claim that we have existed since eternity followed by claming everything from Istanbul, Turkey to Tokyo, Japan as our civilizational entity and history. Not that there is anything to claim on Ganga but I would pull the rug underneath them as well and claim Ganga as well. I would say Ganga is Asia is it not?

The best way for you to look at it is this way. If John had three sons. David, Steven and John Junior. Would John Jr start claiming he was born before his birthdate because his name was same as his father's?

......... > David.
John > Steven.
....... > John Jr.
The analogy you gave is incorrect. The correct one is here below:

Soviet union disintegrated but now Russia is the successor to Soviet Union. The same way today's India is successor to pre-partition India.
 
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