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How Kashmir was stolen from Pakistan by Mountbatten

Was Pakistan created for Muslims or Muslims created for Pakistan?

Both were created for each other. That is why a large chunk of India was carved to create this country. And more Muslims were left in India to carve more Pakistan's out of the struggling and bungling Indian remain.

I know many pundits and anyone with common sense would realise the folly of Kashmir being independent.

It would take something very dramatic.

In general for Pakistan to attain parity with India,it needs to be economically much stronger than India and only then will we see something happening in Kashmir.

Else the status quo is here to stay.



which south indian state is going to breakaway?

Those south indians who wanted a separate state shut up in no time when the contitution made it criminal to ask for it.

All those South Indian states where the North non-cow eating cow belt people emigrate in large numbers and they would not be able to feed those hungry teeming millions.They can form their own constitution later, no problem.
 
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Both were created for each other. That is why a large chunk of India was carved to create this country. And more Muslims were left in India to carve more Pakistan's out of the struggling and bungling Indian remain.



All those South Indian states where the North non-cow eating cow belt people emigrate in large numbers and they would not be able to feed those hungry teeming millions.They can form their own constitution later, no problem.


TamilNadu is hard core vegetarian state dude, forget about cow eating.

what do you know? have you been there?
 
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it's a waste of time to talk about it; but we know on which side there is the most unrest and it sure as hell aint this ISI behind it. Kashmiri nationalism is a purely Kashmiri phenomenon and it's a reaction to them being pushed against a wall and a reaction as a direct result of draconian laws and measures imposed on them.

It's basic human nature.

but neither do i have the time nor the need to convince y'all coz the writings already on the wall.

Curiously, amongst the younger generations it's more of a secular nationalist movement religion plays a less dominant role here. Even many of the supposedly oppressed pundits are increasingly vocal, you just wont hear about it in that heavily regulated media of yours


Well, J&K has a bumper tourist season and there has been hardly any noise and unrest..


On the contrary, the murmurs from the west of LOC are increasing at a steady pace..

Gilgit violence - thenews.com.pk

Army deployed in Gilgit as violence leaves 10 dead, 40 injured | DAWN.COM

Violence-hit Gilgit faces shortage of essentials | DAWN.COM

13 killed in sectarian violence in Gilgit, Chilas | Pakistan Today | Latest news | Breaking news | Pakistan News | World news | Business | Sport and Multimedia

Gilgit-Baltistan sectarianism: Police chief denies foreign hand in violence – The Express Tribune

Anti-Militant Protests Rock Kashmir

`Milaap Rally’ in Neelam Valley opposes Pakistan-backed terrorism , World , Aninews

Strike in Neelum valley against militant activities | DAWN.COM
 
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We have had to recite various fundamentals of the freedom struggle and of the events during partition and independence of India and Pakistan, almost as if these were new discoveries, to be announced to an incredulous audience. Unfortunately, these detailed narratives have to be repeated almost on a quarterly basis, as new members come on board, and ask the same old questions, with the same old hackneyed remnants of partisan argument as the answers already known. It would be nice if the detailed sections could be preserved for future use.
 
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All those South Indian states where the North non-cow eating cow belt people emigrate in large numbers and they would not be able to feed those hungry teeming millions.They can form their own constitution later, no problem.

Well south indians don't give a $hit to what a pakistani thinks about us .....

We are loyal Indian citizens and will remain so .......
 
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Pakistan only provides moral and diplomatic support to the freedom movement in Kashmir. It is the Kashmiris themselves who are fighting for independence from India and it is their right to seek freedom and even pick up arms for this struggle as enshrined in the UN Charter. Please learn to live with it.

Which part of only moral and diplomatic support includes forming militant groups?>

SPIEGEL: Why did you form militant underground groups to fight India in Kashmir?

Musharraf: They were indeed formed. The government turned a blind eye because they wanted India to discuss Kashmir.

'Pakistan is Always Seen as the Rogue'

invaded and captured Goa in 1961 which was an area belonging to Portugal,

Seriously!

invaded East Pakistan in 1971,

Of course operation Chengiz had nothing to do with it.


created Sri Lankan terrorist group LTTE

India created LTTE? source


invaded Maldives in 1988

Operation cactus = invasion of Maldives? :what:

Gayoom or Maldivan Govt never appealed
 
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Both were created for each other. That is why a large chunk of India was carved to create this country. And more Muslims were left in India to carve more Pakistan's out of the struggling and bungling Indian remain.

After your experience with North Indians aka Muhajirs in Karachi, no surprise in your comment. :laugh:
 
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There was widespread protest in Kargil against the killings in Gilgit. There are lots of videos on youtube.

Iranian influence amongst the Kargil Shia population is much more than that of India. I don't know how you guys look at it, but when the Americans were invading Iraq, much more protests were organized by these people.

After your experience with North Indians aka Muhajirs in Karachi, no surprise in your comment. :laugh:

My people also emigrated from India during partition. They didn't call themselves muhajirs, neither do I. It is their political struggle and they moved away from this many many years ago and now don't call themselves muhajirs. Although some still do, perticularly those who migrated late and have links with their relatives in India. Over a period of time this is going to fade as younger generation who were born in Pakistan lose their contacts with those across. This is happening at a steady pace.

Tamils can't be compared with muhajirs of Pakistan as they don't have a muhajir akin state in India.

Which part of only moral and diplomatic support includes forming militant groups?>

'Pakistan is Always Seen as the Rogue'

Seriously!

Of course operation Chengiz had nothing to do with it.

India created LTTE? source

Operation cactus = invasion of Maldives? :what:

Gayoom or Maldivan Govt never appealed

All of it. What's your problem. You did and do the same and if you can why can't we. :)

Well south indians don't give a $hit to what a pakistani thinks about us .....

We are loyal Indian citizens and will remain so .......

hehe ..... OK :)
 
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Sir,

When you keep one eye shut, you can only see through the other eye.


When Jinnah visited Kashmir, incidentally on the invitation of Sheikh Abdullah who wanted him to come to Srinagar and help remove the differences between National and Muslim Conference. The overwhelming welcome and the kind of massive reception he was accorded in Srinagar by the Kashmiris is a fact of history. The whole of Srinagar came out to receive him, even people from far flung areas came in large numbers. He stayed there for over a month.


Contrarily, when Pandit Nehru visited Srinagar, when his procession was moving on boats on Jhelum River, people standing along the river threw dirty shoes and muck at Nehru.

Truly? Well, well. I find that I am a one-eyed man, being led by the blind.


Tariq Ali...in his book The Clash of Fundamentalism: Crusades, Jihads and Modernity...in a chapter dedicated to Kashmir titled, The Story of Kashmir,...tells us:

Sheikh Abdullah promised liberation from Dogra rule and pledges land reform; Nehru perched the virtues of unremitting struggle against the empire and insisted that social reform could come only after the departure of the british; Ghaffar Khan spoke of the need for mass struggle and urged Kashmiris to throw fear to the wind: ‘You who live in the valley must learn to scale the highest peaks.’

In the last week of May 1940, Nehru along with Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan paid a visit to Kashmir on an invitation of Sheikh Abdullah. This was when Nehru talked of Kashmir as a beloved. While Nehru was talking about Kashmir as a “beloved”, there were certain developments in the political scene of Kashmir that were to sow the seeds of a lasting turmoil.

In Srinagar, the summer capital of Kashmir, on May 30, 1940 Nehru made an appeal to Kashmiri pandits advising them to support Sheikh Abdullah’s party National Conference (NC) in its struggle to assume power. Only recently, some pandit leaders had resigned from National Conference alleging an "oppressive communal atmosphere". In April 1940, on Id Miladun Nabi day, Sheikh Abdullah made a very religious speech that made the pandit members of the party suspicious of the party’s secular nature. Prominent Kashmir pandit leaders of the party made strong protests, these inculed Pt. Jia Lal Kilam, Pt. Tarachand Bulbul who was popularly known as Kashyap Bandhu and Prernnath Bazaz, one of Sheikh’s closest allies, and a man whose standing is still very dicey even among the preset generation of Kashmiri pandits. The affair took a dramatic turn when Kashyap Bandhu and Jai Lal Kilam resigned from National Conference. But, Rushid Taseer writing in Twarikh-e-Hurriyat Kashmir (pages 90-99 vol II) gives an another reason for their resignation. According to the author, Pt. Nehru’s “beloved” trip was the real reason of discord. On 29th May 1940, Kashyap Bandhu objected to Nehru’s visit and asked Sheikh Sahib with whose permission he had invited Pt. Nehru. This little tiff led Kilam and Bandhu to resign from National Conference. They were to later rejoin the party’s working committee on June 1943.

This “beloved trip”, an enthusiastic crowd welcomed, these were Sheikh Abdullah’s followers; as also there were hostile demonstrations by certain people opposed to this alliance between Nehru and Sheikh Abdullah, their numbers yet minuscule.

Who were these protesters?

In 1931, Muslim Conference was formed in Srinagar, Sheikh Mohd. Abdullah, who had recently returned to Srinagar after doing his Masters in Chemistry, left his Government job as a teacher and became its first President. The party formed in response to Maharaja’s oppressive rule, among other things was having agendas like land reforms and removal of heavy taxation. This party, a representative of majority Muslim community of Kashmir, also had Hindu members like Pt. Prem Nath Bazaz and Kashap Bandhu and the lone Sikh leader, Sardar Budh Singh*, as its member. The national demands of self-rule were passed unanimously on 27th Aug. 1938. These minority leaders were among the signatories to the demand of self-government. Most of the Pandit community remained indifferent to these developments if not yet opening dismissive. It is pertinent to note here that initially the Pandits were even hostile to the social and cultural changes suggested by Kashyap Bandhu within the Pandit community. +

The party jumped into a more culturally inclusive politics in early 1938 after Sheikh Abdullah’s chance meeting with Pandit Nehru at Lahore railway station when the latter was on his way to North West Frontier Province (NWFP). Nehru was on his way to meet the Punjab President of the Pradesh Congress Committee (PCC) Mian Iftikharuddin and incidentally, Sheikh Abdullah and Bakhshi Ghulam Muhammad were the personal guests of Mian Iftikharuddin at that time. They accompanied Mina to meet Nehru at the railway station. The two Kashmiri’s, Abdullah and Nehru, formed an instant bond andNehru asked Abdullah to accompany him to the NWFP. The Sheikh agreed while G. M. Bakhshi got off at Shahadra station. In NWFP, they met Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan where Abdullah invited both Nehru and Ghaffar Khan for a visit to Kashmir.

The outcome of this chance meeting was: In March 11, 1939, Sheikh in his address to the standing committee of the state's Peoples Conference, declared his support of the Indian National Congress. On the 26th March, the Kashmiri delegation lead by the Sheikh met Gandhi in Delhi. On his return to Srinagar, for the first time the flag of Indian National Congress was hoisted at the roof of the headquarters of Muslim Conference at Mujahid Manzil Srinagar. Many of the Muslim Conference members were mystified by the decision that was ratified by the party’s General Council on April 26, 1939. Some Muslim Conference leaders including Chaudhry Ghulam Abbas, a man with considerable clout over the party, opposed this move. Later, these very people and their supporters were to voice their dissent during Nehru’s visit. They were the protesters who couldn’t understand why religion was being kept out of the agenda.

A later visit showed that the communal element had organised.

"I can say with certainty that he [Sheikh Abdullah] is in the wrong. Having got himself ensnared by the Congress, which is thoroughly a Hindu organisation, he has put the ship of his community in a whirlpool. I understand that he is doing this out of ignorance and some misunderstanding. But I am fully satisfied that he will soon realise his mistake and will return to the right path, and will come to know that those whom he is considering his friends and at whose beck and call he is acting, are not his true friends but his enemies."
Yet, in his 1936 private visit to Kashmir, Jinnah in his liberal avatar, had almost ceremoniously advised harmony between Hindus and Muslims.

Another significant visitor to Kashmir in the year 1944 was V.D.Savarkar, the man behind Hindutva ideology. It is equally interesting to note that Pandit S.N.Fotedar, the President of Yuvak Sabha told Savarkar that Hindu Fundamentalism was as alien a culture to Kashmir as Muslim Fundamentalism was. Much later in 1953, a point man of Hindutva, Shyama Prasad Mukherjee, was to loose his life in Kashmir.

In the changed political scenario post Quit India Movement of 1945, Nehru along with Azad and Gaffar Khan, all recently released from prison, paid a visit to Kashmir and was given a rousing reception by NC, the reception included a splendid river procession. There were threats of disruption issued by the MC, and disruptions there were. This time the voice of dissent was stronger than ever, and on his arrival in Srinagar, the people took to streets in large numbers shouting slogans like "Go back Nehru". The Kashmiri society started to segregate along religious lines.

On 7th August 1945, Nehru advised Kashmiri Pandits (reported in the Hindu of 10 August) “[…] to join it (NC) in much larger numbers and thereby influence its decisions." Nehru was counting on Sheikh and he expected a broad support for him and did all he could to make it possible.


And we were informed in solemnly intoned words about a contrasting visit; let us re-visit that as well.

This decision also widened the rift between Jinnah and Abdullah; the rift that was etched out during Jinnah's visit to the Valley in May 1944. There was war of words between Mr. Jinnah who called the leaders of NC as 'a gang of goondas' and Sheikh Mohd. Abdullah who retorted by saying "If Mr. Jinnah does not give up his habit of interfering in our politics, it will be difficult for him to go back in an honourable manner." The long visit that lasted two months and a week was quite eventful, in one incident at a public meeting in Baramulla’s Masjid Lawns, the crowd almost heckled Jinnah when he got up on dais to speak. People rose up, unfolding banners with slogans: 'Hindu Muslim Sikh Itihad - Zindabad' and 'Qaid-e-Azam Sheri Kashmir, Sheikh Mohd. Abdullah - Zindabad'. The event further rattled wary Jinnah. It is interesting to note that Alastair Lamb in his book Kashmir Disputed Legacy (Page 97) sums up this long visit of Jinnah writing:

" M.A. Jinnah, unlike Jawaharlal Nehru was extremely reluctant at this period of time to involve himself directly (or the Muslim League which he headed) in the internal affairs of the Princely State; such action would in his eyes have been constitutionally improper.

Instead it seems more likely that Jinnah found himself struggling against the Kashmiri leadership of the time, its private resolve and Congress influence on it. His talk about "Muslims have one platform, one Kalima and one God... All Muslims must come under one flag" found no appreciation.

Lines were going to be drawn and the process had started.

Earlier in April 1, 1939, Jinnah, in his reply to an address presented by Kashmiri students at the Aligarh Muslim University, declaimed:

"I can say with certainty that he [Sheikh Abdullah] is in the wrong. Having got himself ensnared by the Congress, which is thoroughly a Hindu organisation, he has put the ship of his community in a whirlpool. I understand that he is doing this out of ignorance and some misunderstanding. But I am fully satisfied that he will soon realise his mistake and will return to the right path, and will come to know that those whom he is considering his friends and at whose beck and call he is acting, are not his true friends but his enemies."

Yet, in his 1936 private visit to Kashmir, Jinnah in his liberal avatar, had almost ceremoniously advised harmony between Hindus and Muslims.

I leave it to those blessed with better sight to decide who is one-eyed and who is blind in this matter. But we linger and tarry; it is still a long way to St. Dunstan's.
 
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Iranian influence amongst the Kargil Shia population is much more than that of India. I don't know how you guys look at it, but when the Americans were invading Iraq, much more protests were organized by these people.

Your point here. Even Shias in Pakistan are more inclined to Iran and hate Arabs.

My people also emigrated from India during partition. They didn't call themselves muhajirs, neither do I. It is their political struggle and they moved away from this many many years ago and now don't call themselves muhajirs. Although some still do, perticularly those who migrated late and have links with their relatives in India. Over a period of time this is going to fade as younger generation who were born in Pakistan lose their contacts with those across. This is happening at a steady pace.

Tamils can't be compared with muhajirs of Pakistan as they don't have a muhajir akin state in India.


The fact is friend before 1947 you considered all Muslims of subcontinent as one people but look at your your mentality now you guys talk of separate nation for Indian Muslims instead of talking of rejoining them. Your experience with Muhajirs has took you to this position, most recent example is disowning of Biharis. Now you consider them as three Pakistanis, Indians and Bangladeshis even trying to prove the difference with Skin color. :)
 
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What next? Oh, the split in the National Conference, and the departure of a grumpy, sulking Chaudhary Ghulam Abbas.



2. Took advantage of the emergence of a minority faction in the National Conference and its revolt against the state administration to promote an attack on the state forces;

Sir, when Indian leadership did it, you in another response elsewhere called it real-politik. When Muslims League approached the local leaders for support it becomes advantage taking !

When Mountbatten was retained as the Governor General, Hindus named him as Pandit Mountbatten for nothing, did they! It has been proved from historical evidence that Indian advantage taking and scheming had started much earlier between the Congress leaders and Maharaja of Kashmir, much much before the intrusion of Pathans in Kashmir even began and based on which the Indian invasion of Kashmir was blamed on.

Even Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel wrote a letter to the Maharaja four months before Pathan intrusion. This was clearly in reply to a letter from Maharaja. Through this letter also it has been clearly identified that when Pandit Mountbatten visited the vale of Kashmir, he could not properly explain the reasons for Kashmir’s accession to Maharaja and therefore, he invited the Maharaja to visit Delhi to meet Pandit Mountbatten again so that the details could be explained to him. These letters have been published and are available for you to read and confirm.


First, I would like you to reproduce the passage where i called this, that or the other real-politik.

Second, every point of the argument that you have put forward has been methodically refuted. If you have nothing new to add, nor have any response to the points presented by me, then stating what you have stated becomes a cut-and-paste job, you Re invited either to say something new, say something to refute the counter-arguments or to lead a discussion - elsewhere - on the aerodynamic qualities of HMS Ark Royal.
 
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We come now from our statistics and history lessons to geography.

Webmaster, as I am an educated man in distressed financial circumstances, could I be paid a small fee for these classes that are being conducted at such regular intervals?

For this part, please have ready before we start (I) a map of the J&K state; (II) compasses and a scale, to measure distance; (III) soft cushions, four to six in number.

3. Justified the looting, rape, abduction and killing of Muslims (93.7% of the Vale was Muslim) by the invaders;

No Sir, it was justified by Hindu Indians and their leaders much before the Pathan ingresses in to Kashmir to save the Muslims from being completely massacred by marauding Hindu invaders from India. It was all started by and planned in meetings between rulers of Alwar, Kapurthala and Patiala etc with Maharaja of Kashmir.

And, the intrusion of Pathans has been blamed for everything. However, does any of you even know that after the pogrom in Punjab where Muslims were killed in millions in order to ethnically cleanse the areas and change the demography, where did these marauding Hindu and Sikh hordes were sent to? No you wouldn’t know or probably wouldn’t want to acknowledge it – these hordes were sent to Jammu to loot, rape, abduct and kill Muslims.

As planned, in the initial instance, they intended to ethnically cleanse areas of Jammu where Muslims were in minority. Between July and October 47, over 500,000 Muslims were thrown out of their homes, out of which 200,000 thousand were killed and about 300,000 were forced to emigrate to Pakistan. This was the first stage of this operation. The Pathans came to safeguard the Muslims from hordes of marauding Sikhs and fundamentalist Hindus.

Again, this has been answered, and nowhere refuted.

However, the geography needs examination.

There was devastation in Jammu, a town closer to the plains of the Punjab. The protective measures were extended to Baramula, Srinagar and other towns in the Vale.

Even more curious is the form the protection took ( to be continued).
 
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You guys make me laugh. Kashmiri nationalism is a Kashmiri phenomenon? Yet when I (a Hindu) went there, they treated me as their brother and didn't pelt me with stones? Kashmiris don't want to be a part of Pakistan (they may have wanted independence once, but since their neighbours won't give 'em that right, they have left it alone), they speak of the so called "freedom fighters" as ****, they only want peace, nothing else.:whistle:
 
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We come now from our statistics and history lessons to geography.

Webmaster, as I am an educated man in distressed financial circumstances, could I be paid a small fee for these classes that are being conducted at such regular intervals?

For this part, please have ready before we start (I) a map of the J&K state; (II) compasses and a scale, to measure distance; (III) soft cushions, four to six in number.



Again, this has been answered, and nowhere refuted.

However, the geography needs examination.

There was devastation in Jammu, a town closer to the plains of the Punjab. The protective measures were extended to Baramula, Srinagar and other towns in the Vale.

Even more curious is the form the protection took ( to be continued).

Sir, I see you toiling against these ignorants to show them right from wrong, do they even care? I do not think so, so why exert yourself.. Let it be!


Now I have to listen to the Beatles.. Damn!
 
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