How Kargil was defused - Testimony from Pakistan Embassy in Washington

[nair]

@Chak Bamu ..... Nice thread.

 

[notorious_eagle]

There are practically 2 factors because of which Pakistan had started losing positions in Kargil.
1. LGB's on the peaks by IAF.
2. Massed artillery by IA.

You forgot the biggest factor, which is that the IA decided to mobilize an entire Corps to evict the intruders. There was no contingency planning on the PA side; there was no Plan B, C or D. The 'Big 4' never factored out that the IA would mobilize in full force and would not accept any transgression. This was the level of incompetence that was present there, Kargil no doubt was a good tactical plan but tactical plans are useless without a sound strategic plan. The LGB strikes and artillery pounding did make a big dent against the PA, but they were willing to take that punishment for the additional territory. But when the IA started rushing the XV towards the hostilities, PA knew that it was looking at a loss unless she fully mobilizes which she was unwilling too.

Nawaz Sharif promoted a junior general who was considered to be a compromised person because of the life-style he led (women and booze), and thought that COAS would be easily contrallable. Bad idea. A person with integrity is a worthy asset. I just wish Gen Ali Quli Khan had been promoted. He deserved it. His father Gen Habibullah was ignored by Ayub Khan for possessing a strong personality and instead Gen Musa was promoted. So too Gen Ali Quli Khan, despite being the senior and front-runner, was ignored for exactly the reasons that actually made him a good choice. A show of confience form Nawaz Sharif would have gone a long way. History might have been different.

This is by far one the biggest regret i have for the nation, that Lt Gen Ali Kuli Khan was not made the COAS. He would have never let this incompetence take place. I happen to be blessed to know him on a personal level, i know the competence of the man, by God does he leave a lasting impression on you. There was no one in the Army at that time who deserved the post of COAS more than Ali Kuli Khan.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Nice thread you say? It is not. Just looking at Indian trolling, I think I made a mistake. Top it off with crackpot posts by @batmannow and we have a mudslinging Mela of sorts.

Seems like people (not you Ayush) enjoy scoring worthless points and using bad language to deal with s*** in their lives. Truth is hardly ever the real issue. Has anyone from among the Indians showed even an iota of concern about Indian jingoism in Siachen and the resulting deaths over the three decades? How important is the possesion of that frozen hell?

If you really look at it closely Kargil was the answer for Siachen. The moral fibre of the generals involved was too weak to be forthright about it. Had truth been told, I would have boldly defended the incursion, damn the diplomatic pressure. But I just can not bring myself to support a pack of lies.

Lahore process should have been taken to its conclusion. But the PML government under Nawaz Sharif hurried a process that should have taken a few more months to at least inform the public opinion, if not actually mould it. Bad situation all around.

This thread shows what people are prepared to do in the name of Nationalism. There is no humanity in it.

But buddy, unlike Pakistan, Siachen affair was well planned, taken inputs from many, and was executed. But Kargil was an operation of 'Dirty Four'. It was a failure , in purely diplomatic fronts. Even in military front, it had achieved neither.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Drat!! the Drak Knight, the Lost Knight rises again!! LOL,LOL,LOL

I am befuddled.

Don't you mean Drak! The Drat Knight, the Lost Knight bounces again!! LOL, LOL, LOL and a bottle of rum (optional).

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I am befuddled.

Don't you mean Drak! The Drat Knight, the Lost Knight bounces again!! LOL, LOL, LOL and a bottle of rum (optional).

Tauba, Tauba; Joe. The underlined part is strictly Haraam. But the springs probably got re-sprung agian!
That is mutilink suspension for you.

 

[Chak Bamu]

This is the part of your post that deserves a response esp the underlined part. Somehow the Security Estt in Pakistan has conjured up an image of India just waiting to swallow up/anhilate/eliminate/destroy Pakistan from the face of this earth. This simply a "Phantom of the imagination" or a better word is "Hauwwa". This is neither contemplated nor possible by India.
OTOH, Pakistan's existence is in India's interests. India needs a buffer on the western side to absorb all the shocks that emanate from the 'wilder west' beyond. Apart from that; India has no desire to acquire a country that has no wish to be part of India. 1947 was that defining moment in time.
Why did India not even consider trying to annex BD after its creation in 1971? For precisely the same reason. So in sum; this "existential threat" story is simply a figment of imagination. It has been simply created as "self-serving" story to justify the Pakistani Security Estt. preponderance over the Pakistani Nation. This story has also helped to hide the recurrent disasters created by the Fauj. It is so easy for them to posit themselves as the sole force that can keep Pakistan in existence; in a simply unending "Thekedari and Zamindari". By extenso, it also implies that anybody else in Pakistan is fit to keep the country going. This is the narrative that has been subliminally entrenched into the mind of the Pakistani Awaam over so many years.
No wonder that Democracy has been unable to grow "even half a leg to stand on after 6 decades of existence".

The Awaam in India is as wise as (or as stupid as ) the Awaam across the border on the West. They frequently chorus "Yeh Siasat-wale sub saale chor hain" but they never say "Fauj ko bulao, Fauj sab theek kar dega". Instead they have regularly kicked politicians out and sent them with their tails between their legs into the dog-houses. While the Indian Fauj has been confined to simply doing what they were created for and what they get paid for.

Please give that a thought. That will help to prevent future Kargils and Cowboy Musharraffs. Or else you will be doomed to have replays of such peculiar phenomena.

Yeah I see the coherence of your thesis, but I disagree. It is rather simplistic. It does not explain many things.

Both the countries have never resolved any dispute apart from Indus Basin treaty. That too was not settled as well as it could have been in Pakistan's interest. Ravi and Sutlej are dry sand valleys most of the year. There ought to have been a minimum flow requirement.

For a long time it was obvious that Pakistan's existence was not accepted by India as a nation. Yours is probably the third generation and thus more accepting of Pakistan, but talk to a few old folks and you would know what I mean. Right?

You are right, India did not annexe BD, but doing that would have made life difficult for India. Better have a country whose leadership (or atleast a part thereof) is willing to toe Indian line. I have been to BD and extent of Indian influence is obvious. Would I want that for Pakistan? For you guys it is better to have a pliant Pakistan that would fall under Indian influence and toe the Indian line. That is the goal of Indian establishment who is probably too smart to wish for Pakistan's disintegration and deal with ramifications of that in India itself.

Your reference to 'wilder West' is noted with a touch of irritation. Whatever you mean can not be strictly Kosher.

We in Pakistan have to make our decisions in light of our experience. We are dealing with our predicament as best as can be. If you ask me, I would rather not be anyone else and be anywhere else. We in Pakistan have survived thus far, and given the challenges we had to deal with, that is an achievement. Nations are not made in a day. From here things can only get better. My concern is that we have to know who we are and we have to be honest with ourselves. That is part of my motivation for this thread.

Here is to happy competing. Cheers.

 

[Contrarian]

You forgot the biggest factor, which is that the IA decided to mobilize an entire Corps to evict the intruders. There was no contingency planning on the PA side; there was no Plan B, C or D. The 'Big 4' never factored out that the IA would mobilize in full force and would not accept any transgression. This was the level of incompetence that was present there, Kargil no doubt was a good tactical plan but tactical plans are useless without a sound strategic plan. The LGB strikes and artillery pounding did make a big dent against the PA, but they were willing to take that punishment for the additional territory. But when the IA started rushing the XV towards the hostilities, PA knew that it was looking at a loss unless she fully mobilizes which she was unwilling too.

The problem with the Corps was that all the while initially the Army thought it would charge up the mountain slopes with arty softening up the positions and PA would yield under pressure.

The arty was grossly ineffective in softening up the bunker positions. It was direct attack by the guns and they were unable to attack with any kind of accuracy on the mountain tops where PA was entrenched.

PA did not yield, and IA suffered massive losses in the initial phases.
This was when IAF too was trying jugad with dumb bombs and gps - and similarly not very effective. The arty was reduced to saturation attacks on PA aimed at making life difficult for them, not destroying their positions as such.

That was when IAF started using LGB's and their use was a game changer. PA could not have anticipated this either, this was a first - using LGB's /guided munitions in mountains at that altitude.
IAF started precision strikes, destroying many bunkers and targeting logistic lines - destroying arms depot. They were also instrumental in making the arty more accurate with IAF crossing LoC many times to get better targeting.

The combination of precision strikes by IAF after the initial phase and the increasingly accurate arty is what finally softened up the targets for the charge up the mountains by IA successful. Even then, it was not without costs.

The corps initself was initially thinking that simply using numbers will overwhelm PA. It did not, or atleast the losses were high enough for IA to stop and reconsider its strategy with IAF before trying again.

 

[batmannow]

I am befuddled.

Don't you mean Drak! The Drat Knight, the Lost Knight bounces again!! LOL, LOL, LOL and a bottle of rum (optional).

Before the dirt was in eyes, bt now it seems circling in the head of dirty joe?lol

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

any self-respecting Pakistani should be furious about Nawaz Sharif's cowardice the second he landed in DC. I still remember how angry I was when I saw that picture of him in DC on the front page of The Nation, in 1999.

first of all, I am already fairly sure that Nawaz knew about Kargil. He wasn't caught "off guard"

rather than show strength and patriotism he capitulated. . .i will never forgive him for that



but what's done is done......i dont know whats with this sudden pattern of multiple Kargil threads being opened all of a sudden, over 13 years later

 

[batmannow]

The problem with the Corps was that all the while initially the Army thought it would charge up the mountain slopes with arty softening up the positions and PA would yield under pressure.

The arty was grossly ineffective in softening up the bunker positions. It was direct attack by the guns and they were unable to attack with any kind of accuracy on the mountain tops where PA was entrenched.

PA did not yield, and IA suffered massive losses in the initial phases.
This was when IAF too was trying jugad with dumb bombs and gps - and similarly not very effective. The arty was reduced to saturation attacks on PA aimed at making life difficult for them, not destroying their positions as such.

That was when IAF started using LGB's and their use was a game changer. PA could not have anticipated this either, this was a first - using LGB's /guided munitions in mountains at that altitude.
IAF started precision strikes, destroying many bunkers and targeting logistic lines - destroying arms depot. They were also instrumental in making the arty more accurate with IAF crossing LoC many times to get better targeting.

The combination of precision strikes by IAF after the initial phase and the increasingly accurate arty is what finally softened up the targets for the charge up the mountains by IA successful. Even then, it was not without costs.

The corps initself was initially thinking that simply using numbers will overwhelm PA. It did not, or atleast the losses were high enough for IA to stop and reconsider its strategy with IAF before trying again.

Ask few records from IA mountain brigade!
If they can tell the truth?
Cause they hve been pushed again & again?
Thus suffereing the most losses among,IA troops!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

You forgot the biggest factor, which is that the IA decided to mobilize an entire Corps to evict the intruders. There was no contingency planning on the PA side; there was no Plan B, C or D. The 'Big 4' never factored out that the IA would mobilize in full force and would not accept any transgression. This was the level of incompetence that was present there, Kargil no doubt was a good tactical plan but tactical plans are useless without a sound strategic plan. The LGB strikes and artillery pounding did make a big dent against the PA, but they were willing to take that punishment for the additional territory. But when the IA started rushing the XV towards the hostilities, PA knew that it was looking at a loss unless she fully mobilizes which she was unwilling too.



This is by far one the biggest regret i have for the nation, that Lt Gen Ali Kuli Khan was not made the COAS. He would have never let this incompetence take place. I happen to be blessed to know him on a personal level, i know the competence of the man, by God does he leave a lasting impression on you. There was no one in the Army at that time who deserved the post of COAS more than Ali Kuli Khan.

a distinguished officer; under what circumstances do you know of him?

as for air force - I dont think PAF was taken into confidence because of the western-imposed sanctions which rendered a good % of our air force as 'grounded'; their lack of involvement however in providing defensive aerial cover is a matter of disappointment - speaking in hindsight. But then again, my less 'militant' colleagues and friends tend to disagree with me on that.

ground based air defence guys did secure some kills (i think the indians claim that one of the downed aircrafts was due to tech. failure though i have my own views about that)

 

[batmannow]

any self-respecting Pakistani should be furious about Nawaz Sharif's cowardice the second he landed in DC. I still remember how angry I was when I saw that picture of him in DC on the front page of The Nation, in 1999.

first of all, I am already fairly sure that Nawaz knew about Kargil. He wasn't caught "off guard"

rather than show strength and patriotism he capitulated. . .i will never forgive him for that



but what's done is done......i dont know whats with this sudden pattern of multiple Kargil threads being opened all of a sudden, over 13 years later

Many motives!
There are many among even pakistanis, who think that Mr Sharif was innocent, & pakistan went vasted with huge losses in kargill?lol
But kargill been used as a political weapon to stop musharaf,s return to pakistan where wants to start a political life?
Internationaly its only indians, who are really pissed off since the last of his interview to a indian news channel, where he showed the right agression towards the unlogical grilling by the anchor?

& now since the book of retrd close aid of musharaf went out, kargill been made the issue of pakistan & musharaf bashing alltogather?
Reallity can't be changed, & it will remain in the history, that Indian army got caught naked in kargill, & it will remain there untill this world ends?

As a vetrn of kargill, I will nt be ashamed to accept the bravry showen by both,troops!
But if every clown strt thinking, to makin money from the kargill issue, I may like to kick him in his middle section of the body, which couldbe the weakst part of his body!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

one more honest man is going to be called as a publicity seeker and traitor..it's business as usual.

cool story son....speak for yourself

Many motives!
There are many among even pakistanis, who think that Mr Sharif was innocent, & pakistan went vasted with huge losses in kargill?lol
But kargill been used as a political weapon to stop musharaf,s return to pakistan where wants to start a political life?
Internationaly its only indians, who are really pissed off since the last of his interview to a indian news channel, where he showed the right agression towards the unlogical grilling by the anchor?

& now since the book of retrd close aid of musharaf went out, kargill been made the issue of pakistan & musharaf bashing alltogather?
Reallity can't be changed, & it will remain in the history, that Indian army got caught naked in kargill, & it will remain there untill this world ends?

i dont even know if it's about him. Realistically speaking, he has no political career in Pakistan. I don't see it happening. So what are these people who keep bringing up Kargil NOW trying to achieve?

as a someone who has inside scoop about military and as a sane person who views war as the least desirable alternative, but who understands that every war draws lessons -- it's important that we do take lessons from the Kargil episode. If we are going to talk about Kargil though, why isn't anyone barking about Siachen?

 

[l3hdf]

For a long time it was obvious that Pakistan's existence was not accepted by India as a nation. Yours is probably the third generation and thus more accepting of Pakistan, but talk to a few old folks and you would know what I mean. Right?

You are right, India did not annexe BD, but doing that would have made life difficult for India. Better have a country whose leadership (or atleast a part thereof) is willing to toe Indian line. I have been to BD and extent of Indian influence is obvious. Would I want that for Pakistan? For you guys it is better to have a pliant Pakistan that would fall under Indian influence and toe the Indian line. That is the goal of Indian establishment who is probably too smart to wish for Pakistan's disintegration and deal with ramifications of that in India itself.

Well, I have spoken to my elders who were uprooted from Punjab, and non-relatives who left Sindh more amicably, as children. Their view, despite being informed by personal experiences, was far from what you mention. When their families had lived there since time immemorial, obviously they felt hurt seeing what had earlier been brothers, seek to expel them violently from their ancestral lands. But I've never heard one of them holding an ill intention towards Pakistan as a state or its people. Most felt the happenings to be God's will and nothing more, so they accepted their fate, be it sleeping with empty stomachs on railway tracks or seeing their relatives murdered before their eyes.

Those generations moved on, as is evident through their actions upon your state's creation. I need not remind you who initiated all the wars as you can refer to Asghar Khan or any neutral source of the time. Even before Pakistan was created, Jinnah all the way up to '46 was pushing for the cabinet mission plan, whereas Nehru & co. repeatedly refused and preferred partition. So after seeing who wanted what, it is more likely that Jinnah hearts of heart did not want what happened rather than Congress not accepting Pakistan after giving its share of the treasury and refusing other options on the table.

But it helps many in Pakistan to sleep better at night thinking that India does not accept your existence, hence you are threatened and occupy the moral high ground in any pre-emptive measures to secure your "survival". Believe what you want, but I hope you realize how ridiculous it is for India to not accept its neighbour as a state when it is a reality and fact that came about as a result of our own decisions, good or bad. The sentiment here is unreservedly that we want to live peacefully and focus on our masses, not be irritated on occasion by invasive attempts to ensure your uncompromised "existence". Live and let live.

I don't think India wants to annex anybody, just that it prefers positive relations which rule out war or other distractions and allow us all to focus on the common person's misery for once. The majority of our people were left so economically deprived at partition, that they, neither then or now, cared about 'influence', 'politics' and other things which interest relatively well off people like you or me, but just want to get on with life uninterrupted and see their children happy.

 

[batmannow]

cool story son....speak for yourself



i dont even know if it's about him. Realistically speaking, he has no political career in Pakistan. I don't see it happening. So what are these people who keep bringing up Kargil NOW trying to achieve?

as a someone who has inside scoop about military and as a sane person who views war as the least desirable alternative, but who understands that every war draws lessons -- it's important that we do take lessons from the Kargil episode. If we are going to talk about Kargil though, why isn't anyone barking about Siachen?

Thts what I said it, before as long as kashmir remains a problem ,even Siachen couldn't be resolved, & its a realistic chance with ever changing weather , some kargill might pop up again?
I couldn't say, will musharaf be able to do any thing in pakiistAn or not, but mostly PMLn supporters just kept preempting the guy?
& the funny thing is they allways try lal masjid & kargill?