How Kargil was defused - Testimony from Pakistan Embassy in Washington

[indushek]

Nice thread you say? It is not. Just looking at Indian trolling, I think I made a mistake. Top it off with crackpot posts by @batmannow and we have a mudslinging Mela of sorts.

Seems like people (not you Ayush) enjoy scoring worthless points and using bad language to deal with s*** in their lives. Truth is hardly ever the real issue. Has anyone from among the Indians showed even an iota of concern about Indian jingoism in Siachen and the resulting deaths over the three decades? How important is the possesion of that frozen hell?

If you really look at it closely Kargil was the answer for Siachen. The moral fibre of the generals involved was too weak to be forthright about it. Had truth been told, I would have boldly defended the incursion, damn the diplomatic pressure. But I just can not bring myself to support a pack of lies.

Lahore process should have been taken to its conclusion. But the PML government under Nawaz Sharif hurried a process that should have taken a few more months to at least inform the public opinion, if not actually mould it. Bad situation all around.

This thread shows what people are prepared to do in the name of Nationalism. There is no humanity in it.

A vast majority getting exploited by few (read leaders or overlords or whatever) is the fact of this world, in whatever form of governance. You and i are the cannon fodder. Democracy seems to be correcting this but the majority opinion over riding individual thoughts is what happens normally, the reverse would be rare i guess.

You trying to find out the truth is commendable however as with society on the net too, u have to look hear and pass the public without changing ur thoughts unless u are convinced properly not through deceit or coercion.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Nice thread you say? It is not. Just looking at Indian trolling, I think I made a mistake. Top it off with crackpot posts by @batmannow and we have a mudslinging Mela of sorts.

Seems like people (not you Ayush) enjoy scoring worthless points and using bad language to deal with s*** in their lives. Truth is hardly ever the real issue. Has anyone from among the Indians showed even an iota of concern about Indian jingoism in Siachen and the resulting deaths over the three decades? How important is the possesion of that frozen hell?

If you really look at it closely Kargil was the answer for Siachen. The moral fibre of the generals involved was too weak to be forthright about it. Had truth been told, I would have boldly defended the incursion, damn the diplomatic pressure. But I just can not bring myself to support a pack of lies.

Lahore process should have been taken to its conclusion. But the PML government under Nawaz Sharif hurried a process that should have taken a few more months to at least inform the public opinion, if not actually mould it. Bad situation all around.

This thread shows what people are prepared to do in the name of Nationalism. There is no humanity in it.

@Chak Bamu;
You meant well in posting this thread. Please do not be reactive to some posts here from assorted clowns.

Kargil was a failure of the leadership in Pakistan not of the PA. And certainly not of the soldiers of the NLI. They were sent on what turned out to be a "Hara-Kiri" mission because of some incompetent and dishonest generals; specifically 4 gernails. But the soldiers fought bravely and even resolutely. NLI soldiers (IMO) are good mountain troops, their leadership let them down abysmally. Undoubtedly the Gang of 4 bears the greatest responsibility fot that debacle; but the political leadership viz Nawaz Sharif cannot escape either scrutiny or punishment. The only 'fig-leaf' that he has is that he was not fully informed by the cabal and whatever he was told was piecemeal and as a fait accompli.But that does not reduce his complicity. After all Musharraff was his created Frankenstein.

All in all; both the PA and more importantly the People of Pakistan were defrauded by a Cabal of ambitious and professionally incompetent Gernails. To add to that, one of them (Maj Gen Javed Hassan) was elevated to Lt Gen and went on to head the NDC; the cradle of learning of the highest leadership of the Military in Pakistan!
Talk about adding insult to Injury! Musharraff did all of that to his country. Little wonder that he is living where he is?

 

[Contrarian]

About the bold part.

You are referring to the same Benazir who lost our East Punjab intiative ? When India was threatened with a huge population (Punjabi) revolting ?

When India had NOT introduced it's economic reforms and didn't have the diplomatic or the economic clout that it has today ?

Kargil and hence Kashmir would have been a good possible win when our enemy's supplies were squeezed and supply lines under threat via punjab.

The rest as they say is History.

Interesting correlation. Had Kargil been executed during the Punjab militancy, the results would indeed have been different.

All the points you mention are correct, the timelines are however different.
However, there is one more fact - and that is most important of all.

There are practically 2 factors because of which Pakistan had started losing positions in Kargil.
1. LGB's on the peaks by IAF.
2. Massed artillery by IA.

Now, IAF was crucial in that it allowed precision strikes on the bunkers where the arty was not able to aim. It was the reason why many posts had to be abandoned by PA because of incessant bombing making holding of posts untenable. In that timeline, this technology would not have been available along with fewer numbers of Bofors guns as well.

 

[Chak Bamu]

@Chak Bamu;
You meant well in posting this thread. Please do not be reactive to some posts here from assorted clowns.

Kargil was a failure of the leadership in Pakistan not of the PA. And certainly not of the soldiers of the NLI. They were sent on what turned out to be a "Hara-Kiri" mission because of some incompetent and dishonest generals; specifically 4 gernails. But the soldiers fought bravely and even resolutely. NLI soldiers (IMO) are good mountain troops, their leadership let them down abysmally. Undoubtedly the Gang of 4 bears the greatest responsibility fot that debacle; but the political leadership viz Nawaz Sharif cannot escape either scrutiny or punishment. The only 'fig-leaf' that he has is that he was not fully informed by the cabal and whatever he was told was piecemeal and as a fait accompli.But that does not reduce his complicity. After all Musharraff was his created Frankenstein.

All in all; both the PA and more importantly the People of Pakistan were defrauded by a Cabal of ambitious and professionally incompetent Gernails. To add to that, one of them (Maj Gen Javed Hassan) was elevated to Lt Gen and went on to head the NDC; the cradle of learning of the highest leadership of the Military in Pakistan!
Talk about adding insult to Injury! Musharraff did all of that to his country. Little wonder that he is living where he is?

It is quite easy to blame the situation and outcome onto PA & GOP. Convenient for one thing. But that is not the whole story. If you dig back a little. The real issue is the security-centered thinking in Pakistan ultimately traceable to Indian Government and its policies and attitudes. Pakistanis consider India as an existential threat. This mentality has forced us to spend on our Army and rightly so. PA has simply encroached upon space left to it by ineffective and corrupt politicians.

But the driving factor in all this is the Indian policy to begin with. This is the root of our problems. But you know, we in Pakistan has adjusted to Militarism and we collectively take ownership of it now. At least I have no problem with PA as it is. I have problem with liars who have brought our country to disrepute.

Nawaz Sharif promoted a junior general who was considered to be a compromised person because of the life-style he led (women and booze), and thought that COAS would be easily contrallable. Bad idea. A person with integrity is a worthy asset. I just wish Gen Ali Quli Khan had been promoted. He deserved it. His father Gen Habibullah was ignored by Ayub Khan for possessing a strong personality and instead Gen Musa was promoted. So too Gen Ali Quli Khan, despite being the senior and front-runner, was ignored for exactly the reasons that actually made him a good choice. A show of confience form Nawaz Sharif would have gone a long way. History might have been different.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Interesting correlation. Had Kargil been executed during the Punjab militancy, the results would indeed have been different.

All the points you mention are correct, the timelines are however different.
However, there is one more fact - and that is most important of all.

There are practically 2 factors because of which Pakistan had started losing positions in Kargil.
1. LGB's on the peaks by IAF.
2. Massed artillery by IA.

Now, IAF was crucial in that it allowed precision strikes on the bunkers where the arty was not able to aim. It was the reason why many posts had to be abandoned by PA because of incessant bombing making holding of posts untenable. In that timeline, this technology would not have been available along with fewer numbers of Bofors guns as well.

Why did we loose positions eventually ?

Artillery would have had it's effect given time even without any support from other services. Their own spotting and direction mechanisms could have directed fire with increasing improvment till it was dead accurate.

The Kargil plan was originally conceived in early 80s. However it was executed too late. When it was executed it was kept 100% secret from everyone. Even the relevant GOCs were told only when they needed when they needed to know.

This meant that PAF knew nothing and the Army planners (mistakingly) assessed PAF to be the same force it was in 80s.

Lack of BVR, and effective electronic counter measure clipped PAF's wings to a good amount.

American sanctions had good effect on Pakistan.

A lot of people resent PAF's decision to purchase F-7pgs in large numbers and they fail to realize that this was a reactionary decision to the sanction wound not a purposeful designed decission.

 

[Bang Galore]

Nawaz Sharif promoted a junior general who was considered to be a compromised person because of the life-style he led (women and booze), and thought that COAS would be easily contrallable. Bad idea. A person with integrity is a worthy asset. I just wish Gen Ali Quli Khan had been promoted. He deserved it. His father Gen Habibullah was ignored by Ayub Khan for possessing a strong personality and instead Gen Musa was promoted. So too Gen Ali Quli Khan, despite being the senior and front-runner, was ignored for exactly the reasons that actually made him a good choice. A show of confience form Nawaz Sharif would have gone a long way. History might have been different.

Well, if Nawaz Sharif had any brains he would have refused to accept Jehangir Karamat's resignation the moment he offered it (even if it was pushed for by NS himself). A General who was offering to resign was a good General to keep. Guess Nawaz Sharif was a good candidate for the Darwin awards.

 

[Mav3rick]

Well this is history and one person's perspective. I posted this for serious discussion, but forgot that Indians like you join PDF only to troll. How many times have you been banned?

The letter does not say any of what you have concluded. It is only your twisted imagination.

"Nawaz retorted: “It is not the army. It is (a) few dirty eggs. They will meddle to cover up the Kargil debacle”."

Grow a brain first.



See my response to the idiot above. Same applies to you. This is for serious discussion, not for baboons like you.

It's impossible to even imagine that you posted what you did and defended the former 'information minister' thinking that the thread would not turn into a troll fest.

The idea that a Military chief executed something without proper planning is so absurd that it is a waste of time even trying to explain it to some one. I mean what do people think that the Army chief had concluded would happen after such an operation, a handshake and offer of truce from India???

Bloody rubbish article of another wanna be who lives off politicians scraps in posts and positions!!

 

[third eye]

This is quite a frightening post to read.

The poster flat out ignores the original post, and what it shows, and stubbornly clings on to what he wants to know: Pakistan was winning, India went to Washington, the politicians got suckered into giving up a winning proposition.

In the face of such stupidity, the only reaction possible is fear.

You can wake up someone who is asleep.

You cannot wake up someone who pretends to be asleep.

 

[Chak Bamu]

It's impossible to even imagine that you posted what you did and defended the former 'information minister' thinking that the thread would not turn into a troll fest.

The idea that a Military chief executed something without proper planning is so absurd that it is a waste of time even trying to explain it to some one. I mean what do people think that the Army chief had concluded would happen after such an operation, a handshake and offer of truce from India???

Bloody rubbish article of another wanna be who lives off politicians scraps in posts and positions!!

Many Pakistanis have been defending Kargil for more than a decade now. It is impossible for them to consider anything other than the official line given by PA under Musharraf's direction. I came to know the truth in 2000. I denied it at first, but then seeing that Musharraf often took liberties with truth I had to question the 'official' account. In the end it comes down to whether or not Musharraf is to be believed. The overwhelming weight of evidence makes it quite clear.

Accepting truth is the first step to rehabilitation. This or any forum ought not be about defending a dubious position because one belongs to this nationality or that.

 

[Mav3rick]

Many Pakistanis have been defending Kargil for more than a decade now. It is impossible for them to consider anything other than the official line given by PA under Musharraf's direction. I came to know the truth in 2000. I denied it at first, but then seeing that Musharraf often took liberties with truth I had to question the 'official' account. In the end it comes down to whether or not Musharraf is to be believed. The overwhelming weight of evidence makes it quite clear.

Accepting truth is the first step to rehabilitation. This or any forum ought not be about defending a dubious position because one belongs to this nationality or that.

So you want to be the jury, the judge and the executioner as well? Since when have we started believing our politicians and their cronies? Why all this now, with the general elections upon us? Not all of us are stupid enough to believe everything that these politicians utter. Just take an example, a few hours ago the local government system was abolished in favour of the commissionarate system in Sindh (Provincial Assembly), if I was the believe the tantrums that MQM raised I would have believed them but enlightened that I am, I know that every move is scripted as this way PPP(P) wins back the votes they lost when they supported the Nazim system and MQM can go and woo back the votes they lost by clamining that PPP backstabbed them and that PPP is against Karachi. This is just an example!

 

[Joe Shearer]

So you want to be the jury, the judge and the executioner as well? Since when have we started believing our politicians and their cronies? Why all this now, with the general elections upon us? Not all of us are stupid enough to believe everything that these politicians utter. Just take an example, a few hours ago the local government system was abolished in favour of the commissionarate system in Sindh (Provincial Assembly), if I was the believe the tantrums that MQM raised I would have believed them but enlightened that I am, I know that every move is scripted as this way PPP(P) wins back the votes they lost when they supported the Nazim system and MQM can go and woo back the votes they lost by clamining that PPP backstabbed them and that PPP is against Karachi. This is just an example!

A bit meaningless. He's just asking for some realism in assessing what happened, instead of wild-eyed assertion of what was patently a lie. Is that too much to ask?

 

[Chak Bamu]

So you want to be the jury, the judge and the executioner as well? Since when have we started believing our politicians and their cronies? Why all this now, with the general elections upon us? Not all of us are stupid enough to believe everything that these politicians utter. Just take an example, a few hours ago the local government system was abolished in favour of the commissionarate system in Sindh (Provincial Assembly), if I was the believe the tantrums that MQM raised I would have believed them but enlightened that I am, I know that every move is scripted as this way PPP(P) wins back the votes they lost when they supported the Nazim system and MQM can go and woo back the votes they lost by clamining that PPP backstabbed them and that PPP is against Karachi. This is just an example!

You are reading too much into this. When multiple independent sources coroborate a narrative, then arguing against it is no use. You may question each of the sources, their credibility, their motivation, their authority, etc... But then you must realize it essentially boils down to a matter of trust and a commitment to a particular side of the story. You leave us in no doubt as which side you are on. But please do not think for a moment that you are doing Pakistan any favors. We would do well to move on. History can not be changed. Accept it and move on.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

It is quite easy to blame the situation and outcome onto PA & GOP. Convenient for one thing. But that is not the whole story. If you dig back a little. The real issue is the security-centered thinking in Pakistan ultimately traceable to Indian Government and its policies and attitudes. Pakistanis consider India as an existential threat. This mentality has forced us to spend on our Army and rightly so. PA has simply encroached upon space left to it by ineffective and corrupt politicians.

This is the part of your post that deserves a response esp the underlined part. Somehow the Security Estt in Pakistan has conjured up an image of India just waiting to swallow up/anhilate/eliminate/destroy Pakistan from the face of this earth. This simply a "Phantom of the imagination" or a better word is "Hauwwa". This is neither contemplated nor possible by India.
OTOH, Pakistan's existence is in India's interests. India needs a buffer on the western side to absorb all the shocks that emanate from the 'wilder west' beyond. Apart from that; India has no desire to acquire a country that has no wish to be part of India. 1947 was that defining moment in time.
Why did India not even consider trying to annex BD after its creation in 1971? For precisely the same reason. So in sum; this "existential threat" story is simply a figment of imagination. It has been simply created as "self-serving" story to justify the Pakistani Security Estt. preponderance over the Pakistani Nation. This story has also helped to hide the recurrent disasters created by the Fauj. It is so easy for them to posit themselves as the sole force that can keep Pakistan in existence; in a simply unending "Thekedari and Zamindari". By extenso, it also implies that anybody else in Pakistan is fit to keep the country going. This is the narrative that has been subliminally entrenched into the mind of the Pakistani Awaam over so many years.
No wonder that Democracy has been unable to grow "even half a leg to stand on after 6 decades of existence".

The Awaam in India is as wise as (or as stupid as ) the Awaam across the border on the West. They frequently chorus "Yeh Siasat-wale sub saale chor hain" but they never say "Fauj ko bulao, Fauj sab theek kar dega". Instead they have regularly kicked politicians out and sent them with their tails between their legs into the dog-houses. While the Indian Fauj has been confined to simply doing what they were created for and what they get paid for.

Please give that a thought. That will help to prevent future Kargils and Cowboy Musharraffs. Or else you will be doomed to have replays of such peculiar phenomena.

 

[batmannow]

This is the part of your post that deserves a response esp the underlined part. Somehow the Security Estt in Pakistan has conjured up an image of India just waiting to swallow up/anhilate/eliminate/destroy Pakistan from the face of this earth. This simply a "Phantom of the imagination" or a better word is "Hauwwa". This is neither contemplated nor possible by India. OTOH, Pakistan's existence is in India's interests. India needs a buffer on the western side to absorb all the shocks that emanate from the 'wilder west' beyond. Apart from that; India has no desire a country that has no wish to be part of India. 1947 was that defining moment in time. Why did India not even consider trying to annex BD after its creation in 1971? For precisely the same reason. So in sum; this "existential threat" story is simply a figment of imagination. It has been simply created as "self-serving" story to justify the Pakistani Security Estt. preponderance over the Pakistani Nation. This story has also helped to hide the recurrent disasters created by the Fauj. It is so easy for them to posit themselves as the sole force that can keep Pakistan in existence; in a simply unending "Thekedari and Zamindari". By extenso, it also implies that anybody else in Pakistan is unfit to keep the country going. This is the narrative that has been subliminally entrenched into the mind of the Pakistani Awaam over so many years. No wonder that Democracy has been unable to grow "even half a leg to stand on after 6 decades of existence".

The Awaam in India is as wise (or stupid) or the Awaam across the border on the West. They frequently chorus "Yeh Siasat-wale sub saale chor hain" but they never say "Fauj ko bulao, Fauj sab theek kar dega". Instead they have regularly kicked politicians out and sent them with their tails between their legs into the dog-houses. While the Indian Fauj has been confined to doing simply what they were created for and what they get paid for.

Please give that a thought. That will help to prevent future Kargils and Cowboy Musharraffs. Or else you will be doomed to have replays of such phenomena.

Hope fully, GEN kishan pal & Gen V K singh are great examples to follow in india, for any indian?
Bt george fernendes?
The cofin commisiioner of kargill, no he won't?lol lol lol

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Hope fully, GEN kishan pal & Gen V K singh are great examples to follow in india, for any indian?
Bt george fernendes?
The cofin commisiioner of kargill, no he won't?lol lol lol

Drat!! the Drak Knight, the Lost Knight rises again!! LOL,LOL,LOL