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How do people view Islamic organizations in Pakistan from the outside

You are taking this way too seriously.... I only created this thread to clean another. I came up with the title on the spot just because neither @Secur nor @VCheng could actually convey with clarity what Al-Huda was about except some general statements from their perspective. They are obviously outsiders trying to give veiws about something which I felt they did not know much about. Maybe Secure knows more, but certainly not VCheng. He just latches on to anything negative to spread his brand of cynicism.

There really is not systematic way of going about this thread. But one thing is for sure that most people talking about such Islamic movements / organizations / institutions are basically outsiders and they can not adequately describe them. In that sense the thread's title is actually a subtle rebuke. That is all.

A rebuke? :lol:

When the management itself is baiting discussions to further their own fixed minds is a perfect example of the truth uin what I am saying. This fossilization of the collective brain in Pakistani society is well advanced.
 
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Yes I am against secularism crap and secularism is not what you said and Islam has own system and gives huge rights to minorities don't who don't know Islam talk we civilize societies unlike seculars whose entire focus is to turn people into Animals

Zarvan see how you have driven off a Turkish brother with your rants. You did not address any of his valid concerns and instead used your extra-ordinary repellent powers to put him off. You drive people nuts with your rants. Has Quran and Sunnah taught you to be so abrasive and combative? Do you not remember Hadith of being polite to people. Have you forgotten the all hadith about good manners? You think using words like Mr and Sir is essence of politeness when you actually bully everyone like there is no tomorrow?

You are not responsible for Islam. It is Allah's job that He took upon himself. You are answerable to Him for the way you act.

@Targon I apologize for rudeness displayed on this thread.
 
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How sure are you what the next step is? And how sure are you what percentage will take your idea of the next step?

The next steps will see the creation of a FATA like situation in increasing areas of Pakistan.
 
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The next steps will see the creation of a FATA like situation in increasing areas of Pakistan.
You were supposed to answer not throw another assumption! Lagta hai aapki kali zubaan hai and what you say comes true so you keep throwing in these weird assumptions! :unsure: and then go see I told you so or is this time pass chatter? :D
 
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@Secur your reservations are genuine and I understand that- and I do believe institutions based on religion teachings may trend a society towards extremism- but on the case in point Al Huda I think they are hysterical-
 
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Ahh I see...I was merely trying to understand why the outside is soo concerned into showing us what they think when they clearly reject what we think of them :what:

The "outside" is not concerned. As the esteemed Moderator admitted, the title is intended to be intentionally inflammatory and misleading. And a total failure at any attempted "rebuke".
 
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The "outside" is not concerned. As the esteemed Moderator admitted, the title is intended to be intentionally inflammatory and misleading. And a total failure at any attempted "rebuke".
Meaning you have no points left to go with :agree:

Thank you for your time!! :enjoy:
 
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A rebuke? :lol:

When the management itself is baiting discussions to further their own fixed minds is a perfect example of the truth uin what I am saying. This fossilization of the collective brain in Pakistani society is well advanced.

As ever you are drawing your writ-in-stone conclusions well rehearsed in advance.

My exact words are lost in your jest; care to recall them? Does taking words out of context please you and help you along your teflon way? Do not worry about collective brain of Pakistani society. Worry about your own.

The "outside" is not concerned. As the esteemed Moderator admitted, the title is intended to be intentionally inflammatory and misleading. And a total failure at any attempted "rebuke".
I said no such thing. You are taking my words out of context. Quote my words if you have an iota of integrity.
 
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What you have described is quite a common thing. Though I can not claim to know much about Al-Huda, I can understand your view of them. The following are my observations:

Please allow me to respond as well, point by point.

1. Any and every religious movement is going to base itself of some original material. For Muslims, it is Quran and Sunnah. Any perspective, any doctrine, any dogma is going to be based on them. This much is clear.

Correct. In a nation that staunchly claims to be the "Castle of Islam" that is a good starting point. Solid foundation, beyond reproach. After all, how can anyone dare to question the Quran and Sunnah?

2. For any organization to work a certain way, they are going to have a certain perspective to go along with their methodology. In that Al-Huda is not an exception. As far as I know (and I'm open to correction), they are not a totally local phenomenon, but in their institution actually a 'foreign' import. Al-Huda as they began were well-education overseas Pakistanis with a refreshing perspective. Having spent half my adult life outside Pakistan, I can well understand how they might approach religion. It is totally understandable if they have a minimalist approach to social structures etc...

This is the next step: Let us see how the well educated overseas Pakistanis interpret Quran and Sunnah. After all, these are successful worldly Muslims, whose hearts must be in the right place. Surely, their approach is logical and the reason for their success.

So far, so good, right?

3. It is totally up to the people involved to accept them or not to accept them. They are a religious revival sort of group and they would only work if given a chance. So basically association with Al-Huda is a free choice. Other ladies want to be like them and that is why they are open to their influence. Now if someone finds meaning or redefines their lives according to Quran and Sunnah then it is their choice. I or you or anybody else (esp. likes of VCheng) have no say in this.

Very good, now we have the social leaders of their respective circles inviting all the others very softly and gently to their way of life based on the Quran and Sunnah. No compulsion, just come and have tea and chat about religion. Listen to people comfortable talking about just what a great difference Islam has made in their lives. Dunya be kaamyaab, Aakhrat bhi kamyaab. What could be better? Surely, we should seriously consider following these remarkable people down this path. After all, what is the danger here? It is only right.

The trap is now ready.

My dearest friend went through a change like that. While earlier I could just walk right into his home like a family member, I found that it was not possible any more. Though I felt constrained at first, I respected his choice and that of his family wholeheartedly. I am glad I did that. Our friendship has grown stronger because of it.

One by one, families conform. Those who do not feel isolated and must adapt. Just like your friend was able to enforce his change in making you adapt. What is the harm here, you ask? The death of any diversity of thought, and an endless pressure to conform socially.

This is the step from where intolerance is not too far.

4. If any problem is to be found, it would be with how these people view society and efforts to change it. If they have a wish or a way or methodology that has an element of unlawfulness, then that would be reprehensible. I do not know enough to make that call about them.

There is nothing unlawful until now. Except when it becomes impossible to repeal the blasphemy law or the hudood ordnance, because it would be unislamic to do so. Now society is in a mental straitjacket.

Fossilization of the mind is not too far now.

5. You seem to have difficulty adapting to this change within your family. That could be a reason for some resentment. But a personal matter like that should not be allowed to influence your judgement about Al-Huda or similar entities.

But we have seen above how a narrow interpreation of Islam is now the accpeted mainstream, and no other thought process independent is possible without being castigated for it. Now the personal choices of the few can be imposed on everyone with the force of mainstream society.

Who can dare eat in public in Ramadan now? Just a perosnal issue? Nope. You must conform to sciety's will as defined by these people. Or get lashes. You have a "free choice", you see.

6. I hope you do appreciate that any organization that wants a certain outcome has to work a certain way and would therefore teach a certain perspective. If you feel that it leads to extremism, when they do not actually break any laws, then it is not really a valid concern. You can criticize them for being narrow (focus is always narrow, so are most reformist movements), or committed a certain way. But that is purely a personal issue.

The problem now is that the personal issue has become a societal norm against which any dissent is punished.

The trap has sprung.

While I do not agree with Al-Huda's strictly Tawheed-centered minimalist and Salafist approach, there might be little that I could criticize. If they base their conduct on Quran and Sunnah, then I can only support them, and not criticize them.

Of course, what could be more heretical than questioning what they do! Now those who have any remaining vestiges of logical thought are helplessly paralyzed to protest or do anything. After all, "I can only support them.

Now the noose is tightening cutting off the oxygen to the brain slowly and surely.

7. Lastly, I would like to emphasize that during difficult times, people often turn to religion to find solace and meaning. You can not fault people in Pakistan for doing that. The only problem would be a rise in intolerance. In a well-functioning society, laws take care of that aspect.

Now we come to the final touches. Difficult times lead to people turning to religion even more, naturally. Blame all the trouble on evil doeers and ask the people to join them.

Now all the lemmings are eager to jump over the cliff into promised rapture. Willingly.

I hope I have not obfuscated anything or spread any confusion. If I have ignored or forgotten to address any aspect, please let me know.

Please let me know if I have been clear enough too.

Lagta hai aapki kali zubaan hai and what you say comes true

If what I say comes true, then it must also mean that what I say is correct, no matter what color my tongue.

As ever you are drawing your writ-in-stone conclusions well rehearsed in advance.

My exact words are lost in your jest; care to recall them? Does taking words out of context please you and help you along your teflon way? Do not worry about collective brain of Pakistani society. Worry about your own.


I said no such thing. You are taking my words out of context. Quote my words if you have an iota of integrity.


Please see my point by point reply above. Thanks.
 
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Your turn! or did you as @Chak Bamu said slip away with the snake oil you apply and ran off? :P

BTW, before you make such silly declarations again, I am going out and will be back late, and will reply if this thread is still around, or if I am not banned. :D

InshaAllah!
 
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frankly speaking people should stop taking fatwas from these organizations , its too damn harsh, recently when the H1N1 flu was in full swing , a fatwa came banning its vaccination (no kidding) thus putting a lot of people vulnerable to H1N1 flu
 
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Please see my point by point reply above. Thanks.

That post of mine was specifically addressed to Secur. I have not read your reply, nor do I intend to do so, since you are master of obfuscation.

My post demanding that you quote me in context has been ignored. Typical teflon attitude.
 
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Zarvan see how you have driven off a Turkish brother with your rants. You did not address any of his valid concerns and instead used your extra-ordinary repellent powers to put him off. You drive people nuts with your rants. Has Quran and Sunnah taught you to be so abrasive and combative? Do you not remember Hadith of being polite to people. Have you forgotten the all hadith about good manners? You think using words like Mr and Sir is essence of politeness when you actually bully everyone like there is no tomorrow?

You are not responsible for Islam. It is Allah's job that He took upon himself. You are answerable to Him for the way you act.

@Targon I apologize for rudeness displayed on this thread.
He is asking me why I should not be so religious and coming up with presumed assumptions I can't do anything about it pretty much like V Cheng and in Islam the orders are clear either you are with ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW or against them I as a Muslim and all other Muslims have been given responsibility and we have to spread and do try to establish it Sir and ALLAH says in the Quran enter Deen completely not like those Hypocrites who even at most prayers used to be found at first saf but when it came to Jihad or leaving other bad things they used to make some hilarious excuses Sir I love Turkish brothers but he should come up with questions not assumptions
 
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He is asking me why I should not be so religious and coming up with presumed assumptions I can't do anything about it pretty much like V Cheng and in Islam the orders are clear either you are with ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW or against them I as a Muslim and all other Muslims have been given responsibility and we have to spread and do try to establish it Sir and ALLAH says in the Quran enter Deen completely not like those Hypocrites who even at most prayers used to be found at first saf but when it came to Jihad or leaving other bad things they used to make some hilarious excuses Sir I love Turkish brothers but he should come up with questions not assumptions

I did not told you to not be religious, I just gave you my friend as example, his kind of religiousness is good, but your kind of Islam brings nothing but harm, because its not only praying and having a good character according to Islamic standarts, its in extreme levels, its involved into politics and daily relationships, its creates hostilities and discrimination, because such people are not satisfied until Islam has complete dominance on everything and everyone, they're not satisfied with their own religiousness and character.
 
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He is asking me why I should not be so religious and coming up with presumed assumptions I can't do anything about it pretty much like V Cheng and in Islam the orders are clear either you are with ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW or against them I as a Muslim and all other Muslims have been given responsibility and we have to spread and do try to establish it Sir and ALLAH says in the Quran enter Deen completely not like those Hypocrites who even at most prayers used to be found at first saf but when it came to Jihad or leaving other bad things they used to make some hilarious excuses Sir I love Turkish brothers but he should come up with questions not assumptions

Zarvan you do not have the capacity to understand the Turkish experience. Many people like yourself did a lot to destabilize Turkish state by trying to incite people into Jihad and such for personal gain. Turks distrust role of religion in politics and emphasize the personal side of religious practice. They have a valid perspective in light of their experience. You can not impose Pakistani views on Turks. Our experience is different, their's is different.

When one talks about religion and politics, Pakistan's experience shows that sectarianism is always in the mix and produces devastation.

I know you are going to repeat things like what JI etc... say and I know that you are going to talk about 90% being similar etc... But really sometimes it is best to not say anything. You are responsible for yourself, not Pakistanis or Turks. Based solely on your very aggressive and abrasive behavior, you seem to be in great need of improvement in Tazkia-e-Nafs and Ikhlaq. Your combative style drives people away from your views. You are a disservice to political Islam - no wonder Islamists like yourself are not trusted with power whenever people are given a choice.

You are a salafist type person, otherwise I would suggest that you visit and spend time with a Sufi sheikh to improve yourself.
 
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