How do people view Islamic organizations in Pakistan from the outside

[Chak Bamu]

If you studied Islamic history , nearly all such movements were based on Islamic terminology . Good for confusing gullible people it always has been , mate . The organization in question isn't preaching violence , the trouble arises with them asking the women ( who are themselves choosing to allow them into their house of course ) to reject the common societal and cultural practices and the modernity and all things Western have always been forbidden for pious Muslims . Some time later , the same women will by their own choice again will cut off all ties with the world , I have seen it happen . Radicalization , that is what it is . They are building up the opinion towards one step further - extremism so if later the TTP comes in some other form , the mindset will be already there . You see smoking doesn't really cause COPD in one go - it starts with a decreased ability to absorb oxygen , wheezing , cough , severe bronchitis and then proceed to it . I have seen such groups function , they aren't really what you think . The top side is sweet of course , the hemlock I assure you is concealed in the middle .

Like I said, in a society all the currents do not flow one way. I am aware of Al-Huda's Salafist tendencies. But for one Al-Huda I can point out some other Islamic organization that is not Salafist, has a broader scope, etc... But one thing is clear, any movement or organization that takes inspiration from our Deen would emphasize values accordingly. Modesty, being selective about modernity, Hijab, beard, etc... are going to be physical manifestations in any case. What really does matter is the world-view and the focus of individual choice and any attendant activism. That is where one could differentiate based on important distinctions.

This whole cultural thing is not some holy cow. Societies change. I suppose we could do with fewer Rasoom-o-Rawaj, most of which are just dead weight by now. Being a critic of these does not merit approbation in itself.

I admit my exposure to Al-Huda is limited. Perhaps you know more. I would therefore like you to describe you view of them concisely. I would very much like to know more about them.

 

[VCheng]

If you studied Islamic history , nearly all such movements were based on Islamic terminology . Good for confusing gullible people it always has been , mate . The organization in question isn't preaching violence or extremism , no , the trouble arises with them asking the women ( who are themselves choosing to allow them into their house of course ) to reject the common societal and cultural practices and the modernity and all things Western have always been forbidden for pious Muslims . Some time later , the same women will by their own choice again will cut off all ties with the world , I have seen it happen here quite too often . Radicalization , that is what it is . They are building up the opinion towards one step further - extremism so if later the TTP or other extremist groups comes in some other form , the mindset will be already there for them to exploit . You see smoking doesn't really cause COPD in one go - it starts with a decreased ability to absorb oxygen , wheezing , cough , severe bronchitis and then proceeds to it and by then its too late . I have seen such groups function , they aren't really what you think . The top side is sweet of course , the hemlock I assure you is concealed in the middle .

Correctly said. The only difference is that if I had said the above, I would be attacked for it. Let us see how you fare.

 

[VCheng]

Like I said, in a society all the currents do not flow one way. I am aware of Al-Huda's Salafist tendencies. But for one Al-Huda I can point out some other Islamic organization that is not Salafist, has a broader scope, etc... But one thing is clear, any movement or organization that takes inspiration from our Deen would emphasize values accordingly. Modesty, being selective about modernity, Hijab, beard, etc... are going to be physical manifestations in any case. What really does matter is the world-view and the focus of individual choice and any attendant activism. That is where one could differentiate based on important distinctions.

This whole cultural thing is not some holy cow. Societies change. I suppose we could do with fewer Rasoom-o-Rawaj, most of which are just dead weight by now. Being a critic of these does not merit approbation in itself.

I admit my exposure to Al-Huda is limited. Perhaps you know more. I would therefore like you to describe you view of them concisely. I would very much like to know more about them.

Another thing is equally clear: Any religion based movement is going to be hijacked by extremists to further their own agenda. Add this to a mix of poverty, ignorance and deprivation, and you have the perfect explosive mix just waiting for the right spark. Of course, many would love to provide that spark at the right time. If it has not happened already.

 

[Chak Bamu]

What cynicism? All I am describing is the actual state of affairs that is gradually preparing the grounds for a narrow-minded theocracy. And if you think I am imagining things, please try asking any minority in Pakistan these days how far things have changed over the last few years and where do they see the country heading.

This is always a cynic's excuse. "The world is coming to an end and I am just telling you what is about to happen".

Does it matter to you that the internal dynamics of Pakistan are heavily influenced by factors beyond our control? Muslims, particularly Pakistanis have grown more reactionary over time. What else is to be expected? In difficult times invariably people turn to religion. Pakistanis are not a special case as such.

There is a lot of obfuscation. To cut the crap, we need a single-minded focus on political stability and institution-building. That would provide an antidote to your end-of-world thesis. It would take a decade of uninterrupted civilian government and successive regularly scheduled elections to create a sense of calm, purpose, and being in control, that would slowly push back the tide of cynicism and reactionary negativity.

We can deal with most of our problem within our constitutional framework. Taliban, dearth of energy, lack of investment, law-and-order, etc... are not unsolvable problems. But the ever-present obfuscation and confusion makes it difficult to see clearly.

 

[Zarvan]

I have met only a few people from Al-Huda - including one of those upper middle class ladies that @VCheng talks about. I can not say to what extent they can be accused of brainwashing, since anyone is free to attend their activities or not. If studying religion is a crime then indeed they are guilty. If it be wrong to emphasize a certain sectional thought over others, then they are wrong. But in a free society, acting lawfully is not wrong.

If someone wishes to complain about Army being open to influence of such organizations, then they underestimate Army's own internal network. Or perhaps they really wish for Army to be robots - cold, inhuman, and soulless.

@S.Bukhari probably opposes them for their puritanical views. If so, I would not blame him for not liking them. I would, however, fault him for not having vision to see what his opposition to them actually supports.

@Zarvan of course being a straightforward soldier of Allah must march into any argument and openly, loudly, & emphatically proclaim his views much like the loud RATATAT of an AK-47. Would he ever realize that he may be doing more harm than good to his cause?

Man I am asking him prove what Al Huda is doing wrong and against Quran and Sunnah he isn't he is going round and round but not coming to the point the so called brain washing is teachings of Quran and Sunnah if he is not able to prove what activity of Al Huda is not according to Quran and Sunnah he doesn't say but he come with crap the so called brain washing is teaching of Islam @VCheng

Of course what al-Huda does is perfectly legal and indeed their right. But what I want to point out is that once such thought process gain hold in a majority of households, the Taliban's job will be made much easier. Indeed, that might just be their plan since they know that they cannot meet the Army in a direct confrontation of firepower.

We give dam about what people think of outside only matter is are they teaching Quran and Sunnat or not

 

[VCheng]

This is always a cynic's excuse. "The world is coming to an end and I am just telling you what is about to happen".

Does it matter to you that the internal dynamics of Pakistan are heavily influenced by factors beyond our control? Muslims, particularly Pakistanis have grown more reactionary over time. What else is to be expected? In difficult times invariably people turn to religion. Pakistanis are not a special case as such.

There is a lot of obfuscation. To cut the crap, we need a single-minded focus on political stability and institution-building. That would provide an antidote to your end-of-world thesis. It would take a decade of uninterrupted civilian government and successive regularly scheduled elections to create a sense of calm, purpose, and being in control, that would slowly push back the tide of cynicism and reactionary negativity.

We can deal with most of our problem within our constitutional framework. Taliban, dearth of energy, lack of investment, law-and-order, etc... are not unsolvable problems. But the ever-present obfuscation and confusion makes it difficult to see clearly.

What factors are beyond Pakistan's control? Or are you going to rehash the same tired old line of excuses blaming all the troubles on somebody else?

Man I am asking him prove what Al Huda is doing wrong and against Quran and Sunnah he isn't he is going round and round but not coming to the point the so called brain washing is teachings of Quran and Sunnah if he is not able to prove what activity of Al Huda is not according to Quran and Sunnah he doesn't say but he come with crap the so called brain washing is teaching of Islam @VCheng


We give dam about what people think of outside only matter is are they teaching Quran and Sunnat or not

Teaching Quran and Sunnah is just fine. Using them to create the religious extremist monsters is not. It is easy to blur the line between the two and that is what I am pointing out.

To cut the crap, we need a single-minded focus on political stability and institution-building. That would provide an antidote to your end-of-world thesis.

Okay, where is the evidence that there an anti-dote that you describe? Do you really see the single minded focus that you say is needed to create that anti-dote?

 

[Zarvan]

What factors are beyond Pakistan's control? Or are you going to rehash the same tired old line of excuses blaming all the troubles on somebody else?



Teaching Quran and Sunnah is just fine. Using them to create the religious extremist monsters is not. It is easy to blur the line between the two and that is what I am pointing out.



Okay, where is the evidence that there an anti-dote that you describe? Do you really see the single minded focus that you say is needed to create that anti-dote?

That is what I am saying they are not creating any monsters they are just teaching Quran and Sunnat and those who study are trying their level best to follow it there are not monsters

 

[Chak Bamu]

Another thing is equally clear: Any religion based movement is going to be hijacked by extremists to further their own agenda. Add this to a mix of poverty, ignorance and deprivation, and you have the perfect explosive mix just waiting for the right spark. Of course, many would love to provide that spark at the right time. If it has not happened already.

Again, that is a cynic's view. In Pakistan, the social discourse is heavily influenced by religion. You mistake the vocabulary for signs of extremism.

The mixture of 'poverty, ignorance, deprivation' is not going to evaporate by a change of vocabulary. In my last post above I have addressed the issue of obfuscation. Your post is a good example of that. You are raising a specter of 'a spark', thus implying that safety lies in fleeing to your prescription that is not difficult to guess.

What guarantee is there that you prescription would work and not actually make matters worse? What if the flight to your prescription is actually the 'spark' to which you allude above?

There are no shortcuts. There is only a path of constitutionalism and institution building. All the rest are distractions.

 

[VCheng]

That is what I am saying they are not creating any monsters they are just teaching Quran and Sunnat and those who study are trying their level best to follow it there are not monsters

Just give it some time. This cancer will grow and destroy civil society, or what is left of it.

Again, that is a cynic's view. In Pakistan, the social discourse is heavily influenced by religion. You mistake the vocabulary for signs of extremism.

The mixture of 'poverty, ignorance, deprivation' is not going to evaporate by a change of vocabulary. In my last post above I have addressed the issue of obfuscation. Your post is a good example of that. You are raising a specter of 'a spark', thus implying that safety lies in fleeing to your prescription that is not difficult to guess.

What guarantee is there that you prescription would work and not actually make matters worse? What if the flight to your prescription is actually the 'spark' to which you allude above?

There are no shortcuts. There is only a path of constitutionalism and institution building. All the rest are distractions.

Actually, I have no provided any prescription at all. To what do you refer?

 

[Zarvan]

Just give it some time. This cancer will grow and destroy civil society, or what is left of it.

Its not the cancer yes so called secular slaves of west are proving to be real cancer nothing is going to get destroyed by Al Huda kind of people instead they are doing positive contribution to society and are also most involved in charity work too unlike the real cancer secular class

 

[Dubious]

If you studied Islamic history , nearly all such movements were based on Islamic terminology . Good for confusing gullible people it always has been , mate . The organization in question isn't preaching violence or extremism , no , the trouble arises with them asking the women ( who are themselves choosing to allow them into their house of course ) to reject the common societal and cultural practices and the modernity and all things Western have always been forbidden for pious Muslims . Some time later , the same women will by their own choice again will cut off all ties with the world , I have seen it happen here quite too often . Radicalization , that is what it is . They are building up the opinion towards one step further - extremism so if later the TTP or other extremist groups comes in some other form , the mindset will be already there for them to exploit . You see smoking doesn't really cause COPD in one go - it starts with a decreased ability to absorb oxygen , wheezing , cough , severe bronchitis and then proceeds to it and by then its too late . I have seen such groups function , they aren't really what you think . The top side is sweet of course , the hemlock I assure you is concealed in the middle .

Well...if we are talking about the preaching of some groups in Pakistan taking al Huda as an example....

Well, we cant paint all of them with the same colour now can we....There are some educated, polite ones who tell you and then back off...then there are those that try to shove their teachings down your throat and do their bitter sweet magic...

correct me if I am wrong

@VCheng as usual is saying that such societies or institution (eg. Al Huda) are poisonous for the society

As far as I can tell @Chak Bamu is saying society is in par with them to a certain extent (society is conservative)

while @Secur is saying that the layout/ backbone of the teachings/ subject is wrong...

Dudes I am lost a little summary would do me good as to where each stands!

Now can we take a look at 2 things:

1) What does al Huda actually teach and how does it teach

2) how is its teaching destructive or why would 1 call it that

these parts are for you @Secur @VCheng

next @Chak Bamu do you think that a country like Pakistan where the society are sorry to say like sheep can digest and utilize the knowledge al huda gives without spiraling out of control?

I wouldnt say what Al Huda is teaching is wrong...But I would question how and how much do the people ponder on their own than drinking down what they are taught?

Society is conservative, yes! But it is also naive....

 

[Chak Bamu]

What factors are beyond Pakistan's control? Or are you going to rehash the same tired old line of excuses blaming all the troubles on somebody else?



Teaching Quran and Sunnah is just fine. Using them to create the religious extremist monsters is not. It is easy to blur the line between the two and that is what I am pointing out.



Okay, where is the evidence that there an anti-dote that you describe? Do you really see the single minded focus that you say is needed to create that anti-dote?

You've got quite an inquisition going on here:

"What factors are beyond ...... control", "Are you going to rehash tired old...", "Do you really see the single minded focus...."

By questioning me, you hope to cover your paranoia. Its not going to work like that.

For a change, let me ask what you get out of wasting your and our time with your cynicism? Have something ever come out of it.

I am talking about the need and focus for constitutionalism, institution-building, and you are asking me about evidence. If I were to launch into the social contract theory, you will simply ask me how can I be sure if that is the basis for getting anything done. Once I am done answering that, there would certainly be some other objection. So, its going to go on and on and on ... ad infinitum.

In olden times, thieves use to wear only a langoti and would put on a good bit of oil on their body. That way they could improve their chances of capture by being slick.

Your antics on display all over this forum are exactly like that. You are the teflon guy of argument. Nothing sticks to you. You always manage to come clean by being slick.

I can well answer all that you ask. But seeing you in operation on various threads as well as this, I am sure you will brush off all explanations with a never ending stream of objections and questions. You get a kick out of it perhaps, and I certainly feel like kicking you.

 

[VCheng]

Its not the cancer yes so called secular slaves of west are proving to be real cancer nothing is going to get destroyed by Al Huda kind of people instead they are doing positive contribution to society and are also most involved in charity work too unlike the real cancer secular class

What al-Huda and similar organizations are doing is starting the process of radicalization as described below very clearly:

If you studied Islamic history , nearly all such movements were based on Islamic terminology . Good for confusing gullible people it always has been , mate . The organization in question isn't preaching violence or extremism , no , the trouble arises with them asking the women ( who are themselves choosing to allow them into their house of course ) to reject the common societal and cultural practices and the modernity and all things Western have always been forbidden for pious Muslims . Some time later , the same women will by their own choice again will cut off all ties with the world , I have seen it happen here quite too often . Radicalization , that is what it is . They are building up the opinion towards one step further - extremism so if later the TTP or other extremist groups comes in some other form , the mindset will be already there for them to exploit . You see smoking doesn't really cause COPD in one go - it starts with a decreased ability to absorb oxygen , wheezing , cough , severe bronchitis and then proceeds to it and by then its too late . I have seen such groups function , they aren't really what you think . The top side is sweet of course , the hemlock I assure you is concealed in the middle .

Now can we take a look at 2 things:
1) What does al Huda actually teach and how does it teach
2) how is its teaching destructive or why would 1 call it that
these parts are for you @Secur @VCheng

I cannot say it better than what has already been said:

"The organization in question isn't preaching violence or extremism , no , the trouble arises with them asking the women ( who are themselves choosing to allow them into their house of course ) to reject the common societal and cultural practices and the modernity and all things Western have always been forbidden for pious Muslims . Some time later , the same women will by their own choice again will cut off all ties with the world , I have seen it happen here quite too often . Radicalization , that is what it is . They are building up the opinion towards one step further - extremism so if later the TTP or other extremist groups comes in some other form , the mindset will be already there for them to exploit."

 

[Dubious]

Let me start fresh how do people view Islamic Organizations in Pakistan from the outside:

1) who are these people

2) which organizations

3) why should it matter to us how people view?

Has it mattered to Christian preachers how Muslims view them? or zionists how the rest of the world views them? How about America ...how half the world has a hate-love relationship with the state policies?

Lastly, Why should it matter how the outside feels about us?

Many here in the West are homophobic...but they cant express themselves due to laws and of fear of being labelled something negative! But does that mean they feel any less homophobic? Try hugging a guy as a greeting will tell you tons or talk to one too smoothly and "get a room" is the next casual thing to say

Why should it matter?

 

[Zarvan]

What al-Huda and similar organizations are doing is starting the process of radicalization as described below very clearly:

Again anything against Quran and Sunnat as for modernity most of them use internet they use latest gadgets but yes they don't go crazy running around naked they do opposite they cover themselves and encourage others and preach them to cover themselves and that is what Islam teaches many of them also drive cars and completely Islamic Man come up with points which are not according to Islam @Chak Bamu @Akheilos