History’s baggage: Pakistan’s Punjab problem

[Sugarcane]

Ayaz Amir is history-less commentator and thus Not 100% true.

He has gone complete idiot in this post.

I mean picking and choosing half @rsed history to prove his prejudiced views is at best pathetic.

He doesn't know that even in 1857,

Punjabi soldiers (Muslims, Sikhs, and Jaat Hindus) and Pathan soldiers from settled KPK (Peshwar and Charsdda) all have axe to grind with central Indians who revolted against BEIC.

Who rushed to save BEIC?

yes

you guessed it right

Punjabi soldiers (Muslims, Sikhs, and Jaat Hindus) and Pathan soldiers from settled KPK (Peshwar and Charsdda).


As I said,

Ayaz Amir is only good for those who have no forking idea about the military history of the region.

no forking idea.


Dare I say.

I don't know why some people becomes complete retards when it's about history of Punjab?

 

[FaujHistorian]

I don't know why some people becomes complete retards when it's about history of Punjab?

Not just Punjab.

Many of us Karachite Urdu Spanking People have no forking clue about the history of our adopted home aka Sindh
and

we are definitely ignoramous about our ancestor's palces in Bihar and UP.

But that is a separate discussion.

It is not a provincial thing.

It is our intellectual laziness about everything but especially history.

 

[Sugarcane]

Not just Punjab.

Many of us Karachite Urdu Spanking People have no forking clue about the history of our adopted home aka Sindh
and

we are definitely ignoramous about our ancestor's palces in Bihar and UP.

But that is a separate discussion.

It is not a provincial thing.

It is our intellectual laziness about everything but especially history.

I was not talking about Karachities, I respect every ethnicity, culture & religion provided they also give - everyone has good and bad phases in history - Whatever Punjabi people faced in era of central asian invasions was hundreds time better than what mongols, huns & alexandre did to them. But people choose the good era to show their superiority but are always selective when it's about Punjabies - wherever it suites them they combine all Punjabies irrespective of religion and where it suites them they divide history of Punjab based on religion.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I was not talking about Karachities, I respect every ethnicity, culture & religion provided they also give - everyone has good and bad phases in history - Whatever Punjabi people faced in era of central asian invasions was hundreds time better than what mongols, huns & alexandre did to them. But people choose the good era to show their superiority but are always selective when it's about Punjabies - wherever it suites them they combine all Punjabies irrespective of religion and where it suites them they divide history of Punjab based on religion.

Yeap. I understand.

I used Karachi as an example to show the widespread ignorance about history.

Not picking on one or the other ethnicity.

peace

 

[Armstrong]

Well in that case i agree with him

Its an absolutely BS article that really argues nothing whilst ignoring everything that Punjab & Punjabis are about !

(1) His major premise that because Pukhtoons, the Baluch & the Sikhs have been martial in the sense that they've fought & bled & died for the chance to rule is indicative of some sort of an inbuilt Ruler's Acumen is idiotic to the point of not even being funny for the first two ethnicities have been fiercely independent & war like just like the Mongols or Bedouin Arabs because the inhospitable lands they inhabit where life is difficult & raiding is a means to survival is what their evolutionary life-skills have been embedded with ! Whereas for the latter, the Sikhs evolved some amount of martial prowess not because of some ethnic, linguistic or even some racial reasons but due to opposition & persecution to their new-found Faith whether at the hands of Mughals or others naturally a defense mechanism was bound to evolve !

Saying that is indicative of 'Leadership Acumen' is ludicrous to say the least for if Leadership was somehow embedded in Pukhtoons, in the Baluch, in the Sikhs & the Mongols as an ethnicity or a group then :

(a) all three of them would have had any notable Empire to speak off before the rise of the Abdalis, the Mir Chakar Khans or the Ranjit Singh's of their ethnic groups !

(b) all of their Empires wouldn't have crumbled into nothing as soon as their Leaders died !

(2) The Author very conveniently chooses to white-wash Sindh by saying that 'it had no issues with India' & mind you here we're talking about Pre-Partition India, despite not having any History of Empires or Kingdoms (in the sense hes talking about) to show for !

Somehow the absence in case of Punjab is a sticking point but when the same absence in highlighted not only in the case of Sindh but also Kashmir - Its not an issue because it somehow didn't effect the ability of those Ethnic Groups to know what is & what isn't Leadership !

(3) Which brings us to the question why Punjab Muslims never have produced much Leadership of note whilst their Sikh counterparts have done so in the case of Ranjit Singh before falling back in line like the rest of the Punjabis - Muslims & Hindus !

I would've thought that it would've been obvious that Leadership that leads to Empires are produced primarily, as I understand it to be, for two reasons :

(a) Struggle against a Foreign Foe that paints him as 'the Other' & us - in need of saving ! The Sikhs, if their narrative of persecution is to be believed, faced that & because of that baptismal they produced someone like Ranjit Singh who ceased the day !

(b) A strong sense of Ethno-Linguistic Nationalism where either 'Hum Jaiseee Koiiii Nahin' or 'We are Unique & we are Oppressed' is your motto - the Pukhtoons have had that, the Baluch have had that & so have the Sikhs as a reaction to the persecution they faced !

Where have the Punjabi Muslims faced any condition that has galvanized them along Ethnic or Linguistic Lines ?

I can't really recall any !

Nor have the Sindhis for that matter !

So its natural that a strong sense of 'Nationalism' would not evolve in these areas if there was no real impetus for it to evolve !

And instead Punjab & Sindh went the other direction of having a culture of Inclusivity where millions of non-ethnic Punjabis & Sindhis have inhabited traditional Punjabi & Sindhi heartlands without much issue of note - More so in Punjab then Sindh because as unfortunate as it seems that 'impetus' has been provided by the influx of the Muhajirs at the time of the Partition to Sindh where both sides tried to politicize the issue & harmed the mutual coexistence that they were living in which resulted in the rise of Sindhi Nationalism to a certain extend - However because not a single Sindhi Nationalist Party has ever come close to forming a Government in Sindh so we can gauge from that that even inspite of the rhetoric there appears to be no division between Sindhis & Non Sindhis in Sindh !

Punjab is even a few steps ahead of them in this case where there isn't even a Punjabi Party of note within this Province, where the biggest party in Punjab is full of Kashmiris, where the Punjabi language doesn't even have official status or even an academic one & where ethnic-disharmony is a word-unknown to anyone !

Heck - I'm an ethnic Kashmiri born & bred in Punjab just like my Father & his Father before him - I can't recall a single instance where I've even been differentiated against let alone being discriminated !

Come to think of it not even my worst verbal spats with the worst kinds of vermin that I've come across have I ever had a racial slur being thrown at me or have I heard someone being treated in such a manner elsewhere !

Thats how ethnically inclusive Punjab is & therefore it is not fantastic to assume that in the light of an absence of an iota of ethnic or linguistic nationalism in Punjab & any instance in Punjab's History which could serve as an intensifier to ignite some form of such nationalism - the Punjabi Muslims have never really exerted or asserted themselves as a distinct group with a history of their own, a uniqueness of their own or the need to pick up arms going about forming their own Kingdoms !

Which brings me to (4) How in god's name is a history of Empires made & run by One Man or One Family indicative of Leadership Acumen permeating throughout that Ethnic Group ?

(a) If the common Punjabi Muslim was serving in the Bureaucracy of the British Indian Establishment or the Mughals before them or whosoever came before or after them then what do you think the common Pukhtoon, Baluch, Mongol, Bedouin or Sikh was doing an MSc in Leadership & Governance from some Oriental Equivalent of Harvard or Oxford ?

They were serving like the rest of us because don't have an Emperor because it cute they do so because power is concentrated in a few hands by the very nature of an Empire !

(b) Selective reading of History should be made a cardinal sin or something for if past Empires are evidence for some Leadership Acumen then Afghanistan wouldn't be in a state of perpetual sh*t long before the Taliban were being suckled by their mothers, that Egypt wouldn't be in a sorry state of affairs like the rest of us long before the Egyptian Revolution, that Turkiye before Erdogan & Kemal Dervish's policies wouldn't be marginally better than us & marginally worse than us in a myriad indicators, that almost every Arab Country despite having a Glorious Past of different Dynasties wouldn't be in the State that they are today or much more so in the State they were a few decades ago or that Mongolia wouldn't be known to the world for Genghis Khan & nothing else !

(5) And lastly; in each of our instance when the Economy is booming do the Punjabis suddenly learn exquisite Leadership Skills & Governance & then every time the Economy takes a nose-dive do they suffer from Dementia or something ?

That somehow a Pukhtoon self-proclaimed Field Marshal on the advice of a Sindhi Politician miscalculated & starts the '65 War, that a Kazalbash El-Presidente on again the advice of the same Sindhi Politician goes ahead & starts the '71 Fiasco, that the same Sindhi Politician yet again orders a Pukhtoon General to kick start the Afghan Insurgency against Daud Khan for the sh*t they've been doing, the same Sindhi Politician once more orders a crackdown in Baluchistan & for all of that without a single Punjabi on sight - the Punjabis are to blame ?

Are you daft or just plane racist ?

But because it would be equally racist to say the Pukhtoons or the Sindhis or the Kazalbash are responsible for the aforementioned things you would never hear a Punjabi or even me accusing their Ethnic Groups of any of these miscalculations !

People are bad & Policies are inadequate - Not their Ethnicites or their Provinces !

And besides after the 18th Amendment - What miracles have any of the rest of them achieved in their Provinces ? And should a Punjabi be blamed just because hes a Punjabi & you* lot have found him to be a convenient punching bag every time you want to distract popular attention from your abysmal performance & rampant corruption in the Provinces you govern ?

* Politicians & never the people....for the people are good & kind & caring of each other !

I'd like your input too @Aeronaut @Pakistanisage @Secur @Aamna14 @niaz @mafiya @Rafi @Developereo @RescueRanger @blain2 @Leader @FaujHistorian Historian @Raja.Pakistani @HRK @Oscar @Chak Bamu @cb4 !

 

[Kambojaric]

I fail to understand what the point of this article from Ayaz Amir was. Its full of generalizations, misinformation and stereotypes. In other words pretty close to garbage.
He quite conveniently forgets to talk about Hindu Punjabis, and yet the reason why the Hindu Punjabis did not establish some kind of a state or movement after the fall of the Mughal Empire was the same reason why Muslim Punjabis did not, namely because as a distinct ethnic group, the Punjabi identity was very loose. Punjabis identified with their tribes (Gujjar, Chauhan, Janjua) more than they did with some sort of Pan Punjabi identity which subsequently gives rise to organized nationalist movements. In contrast the Sikhs had a newly formed religion that merged itself into their Punjabi identity to form an impassioned and energetic people ready to take revenge for the wrongs that had been inflicted on their gurus. They had hence quite a different situation to their Hindu and Muslim compatriots.

With regards to Punjabis being a dormant people who dont do anything and recieve everything by "sheer force of circumstances", was it sheer circumstance that the masses of Punjab came out to support the Pakistan movement (refer to the picture at the bottom of Quaid e Azams speech at Minto Park) and supported the Pakistan movement will all their heart. The trauma that was partition of course shaped the way Punjabis thought , as just like the Urdu Speakers they had witnessed massacres, mass rapes and extreme violence being committed. It is understandable hence why in the Punjabi or Urdu speaking thought, one needs to be vary of India, but that doesnt mean that Punjabis or Urdu speakers are more cowardly or god knows what else he is trying to suggest. Further even if one wants to define Muslim Punjabis as non energetic people if that is what Ayaz Amir thinks Punjabis are , then was Dulla Bhatti a Sikh or Japanese? (Dulla Bhatti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Or was Sultan Sarang who led the Gakhar resistence against Shah Suri a westernized Chinese? Yes they were not able to establish seperate states based on Muslim Punjabi nationalism quite simply because Muslim Punjabis saw themselves as mentioned before in terms of their tribes and never formed some kind of organized coherent group that nowadays people tend to believe Muslims Punjabis are.

After that he becomes even more nonsensical, suggesting that the "superior" western civilization was not adopted by Muslim Punjabis and hence they became slaves to an Empire ruled from thousands of miles away whilst because the Japanese or Chinese became westernized, they became advanced. Firstly the very use of words like "superior civilizations" is extremely archaic and a sad legacy of our colonial past.
Now what is confusing here me is the suggestion that because Muslim Punjabis did not adopt western "superior civilization", they lagged behind the religious compatriots of their ethnic group. But then why is is he only picking on Muslim Punjabis? Is he suggesting that the other Muslim ethnic groups of Pakistan, or even South Asia did adopt western civilization? If anything Punjabis are probably the most westernized people in Pakistan bar maybe the Urdu Speakers. Hence this problem that Amir sahab so conveniently picks upon as a Muslim Punjabi only problem was and is in fact a wider problem for all the Muslims of the region.
The whole article thus in my opinion is full of false facts and/or the intentionally ignoring of certain real facts to make a point that I dont think anybody is able to make sense of.

 

[Leader]

Sanu Key !!

 

[RescueRanger]

Yeah sorry this is bullshit. No way to sugarcoat it folks, you cannot "cherry-pick" history to make it conform to your argument. Ayaz Amir, went full retard in this article.

 

[Armstrong]

Sanu Key !!

Putttar tuuun teiii Punjabi viii nahin - Gal kardaa ehhhh !

Asal Punjabi tou @HRK Bhai haiin !

Purrr jo bhiii haiii Chicken Karahii naa woh khaaa sakeiii naaa aaap !

 

[Sugarcane]

@Armstrong Janab ap tu emotional ho gaay? Anyway well said

PS: You forgot to mention prosecution of Punjabies be it Baluchistan, Sindh or KPK (Allaqa Ghair) but still you don't see Punjabies crying like sissies over it, nor a single incident of retaliation in Punjab against any Sindhi, Urdu Speaker, Baluch or Pakhtoons - they can come and live in Punjab wherever they want without any fear.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Its an absolutely BS article that really argues nothing whilst ignoring everything that Punjab & Punjabis are about ! !

Very well said and nicely detailed.

My 2 cents!

A - Some authors go back to history to understand the present.

B - Some authors invent history to fit it in the present.


Mr. Ayaz Amir is doing B-rated work.

 

[Leader]

Putttar tuuun teiii Punjabi viii nahin - Gal kardaa ehhhh !

Asal Punjabi tou @HRK Bhai haiin !

Purrr jo bhiii haiii Chicken Karahii naa woh khaaa sakeiii naaa aaap !

jaan diyo jaan diyo... kuj nai honda, loki awane rolla pai rakhday nay, tusi sotay raho... khair hagi !!

 

[HRK]

Putttar tuuun teiii Punjabi viii nahin - Gal kardaa ehhhh !

Asal Punjabi tou @HRK Bhai haiin !

Purrr jo bhiii haiii Chicken Karahii naa woh khaaa sakeiii naaa aaap !

yaar kuch zada jazbati ho gaya .....

Ayaz Ameer asi bongi maarta rahta hai ..... ignore him....

 

[FaujHistorian]

One thing we must not do is to start doing the $tupid disucssion based on Islam and Muslims

Dulla was as Punjabi as Ranjeet Singh.

But Ranjeet Singh was much more scucessfull Punjabi leader.

Thus it doesn't matter what the religion is if you are discussing history of one specific region.

Hell, we have too much bad blood in the Indian subcontinent thanks to religious $hit based analysis.

Why to add more $hit.

Ayaz wrote $tupid article. That's all.


peace

 

[Armstrong]

@LoveIcon - Waisee Lovey Bhai do you think we should consider @jaibi a Punjabi ?

Hakoomat tou chaliii gaiii lekin Mughaloon walii shayan-e-shaaan nahin gaii innn Sahib kiiii - Roooz subhaa utth kar kundan kiii plate mein breakfast karteiii haiiin janaaab !