History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

[elis]

I´m tired of such discussion. Will this ever end?

Please relax, nobody cares anyway
Since the beginning i don't understand one word of your debate about ethnicity

 

[Wholegrain]

I stated in my early post that:



and read here, Wiki is also stated that Mandarin and Cantonese (Yue) are two languages is in Sino-Tibetan language family only, not one language.

Nope you liar, you claimed Cantonese was a Tai Kadai language

Congratulation to 40 million True Native Cantonese. There is great when you can preserved your original Nan Yue paternal blood lineage and your Tai/Katay language with 8
tonal.

Cantonese is in the Sinitic (Chinese) family of languages, Mandarin, Yue (Cantonese), Wu, Hokkien and Hakka are all part of the Sinitic (Chinese) branch of Sino-Tibetan and descended from Old Chinese and Middle Chinese. They are seperate from the Tibeto-Burman branch.

Varieties of Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chinese (hànyǔ 汉语/漢語 or zhōngguóhuà 中国话/中國話) comprises many regional language varieties sometimes grouped together as the Chinese dialects, the primary ones being Mandarin, Wu, Yue, and Min.

Sinitic languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Old Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Middle Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at again the graphic here-under.

1/ Cantonese (Nan Yue people), Hakka, Hokkien peoples don't shared same bloodline with Northern Han (in He Nan province, there is native land of Han Chinese).

2/ Hakka, Hokkien peoples's Bloodline is differed from Native Cantonese, because they migrated late on from North to South around thousand years. They speak their own language at home, like Wu Yue people do in Sahanghai and Zhejiang. Many Celtic words are still speaking in Hokkien communities.

3/ When you prefer to say about paternal Y DNA, don't forget that 40 % of Cantonese and 37 % of Zhejiang WuYue people are preserved their original blood from their father.

Congragulations liar, again, for showing us that the majority of Northern Han, and Southern Han (Cantonese, Hakka, and Hokkien) share the same Y chromosome haplogroup O3.

40% and 37% are minorities. Most Cantonese (over 60%) and Wu speaking people (again over 60%) share the same Y haplogroup O3 with northern Han from Henan.

 

[jhungary]

Austro asiatic are you joking? They all look like the asians

You do know Austro-Asiatic mean East Asianic right? Austro mean "East" and not just Austria

 

[elis]

You do know Austro-Asiatic mean East Asianic right? Austro mean "East" and not just Austria

This is better.

I thought he spoke about the indonesians. Some indonesians women have big boobs like westerners but not all

 

[Rechoice]

I´m tired of such discussion. Will this ever end?

Look, actually we should answer two basic questions: Who are the Chinese and who are the Han people?

Well, the first question is easily answered: all citizens within China border are Chinese. Agreed?
So Chinese people consist of the Han (92%) as majority and 55 other ethnic groups (8%).

Who are the ethnic groups:

The major minority ethnic groups are Zhuang (16.9 million), Hui (10.5 million), Manchu (10.3 million), Uyghur (10 million), Miao (9.4 million),Yi (8.7 million), Tujia (8.3 million), Tibetan (6.2 million), Mongol (5.9 million), Dong (2.8 million), Buyei (2.8 million), Yao (2.7 million), Bai(1.9 million), Korean (1.8 million), Hani (1.6 million), Li (1.4 million),Kazakh (1.4 million), and Dai (1.2 million).

And who are the Han?

First, Han Chinese trace their ancestry back to the Huaxia people, who lived along the Huang He or Yellow River in northern China. But more than that. Han people are those who embrace common Han´s cultures and custom. They are NOT defined by blood line, e.i. they are mixed, consisting of different ethnic groups. Hakka is Han.

Second, and what are Han´s cultures and custom?

Basically, three components make up the Han: Ancestor worship, Confuciasm and Taoism. Han Chinese speak Mandarin and some dozen dialects. KirovAirship says he is Han, so he is. End of discussion. Imagine: you are an alien coming from Mars planet, if you adopt Han´s cultures and custom, you become Han. Clear?

We the Viets are the Han, too, as per this definition because most of us practice Ancestor worship, Confuciasm and Taoism. You can say we are Han Viet, and they are Han Chinese. At the beginning of the 19 century, even our Emperor Gia Long declared explicitly Vietnam as Middle Kingdom and his people as the Han.

I hope that is clear now we all can stop here. Last but not least, pls stop discussing on "blood line". Only NAZI cares of a such thing.

Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of ethnic groups in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have big mistake.

Kinh people is no Han, its clear. Your idea is very funny.

In the past, under influences of Confucius, Emperor Gia Long could say "Hán di hữu hạn" he could referred to the idea or "concept" of Khổng Tử (chữ Hán: 孔子) to make clear differences between majority people (Kinh) and minority people (Thượng) only.

It doesn't mean he claimed that Vietnamese Kinh people are Han people. people in Vietnam say "Kinh - Thương" with the same idea "civilized people - barbarian people".

This is trash made by white-man historian is accepted by part of oversea Vietnamese. There is problem when we used Han Ji to writing in the past, it can lead to misunderstanding.

Same story could related to Ho Chi Minh, when he said about "Communism proletariat" it doesn't mean he is muscle worker or Jew (Karl Max is jew), it is just an idea of him under Marxism - Leninism about the fighting or struggle between Capitalist and Worker class in history (period of Capitalism) .

 

[Viet]

You have big mistake.

Kinh people is no Han, its clear. Your idea is very funny.

In the past, under influences of Confucius, Emperor Gia Long could say "Hán di hữu hạn" he could referred to the idea or "concept" of Khổng Tử (chữ Hán: 孔子) to make clear differences between majority people (Kinh) and minority people (Thượng) only.

It doesn't mean he claimed that Vietnamese Kinh people are Han people. people in Vietnam say "Kinh - Thương" with the same idea "civilized people - barbarian people".

This is trash made by white-man historian is accepted by part of oversea Vietnamese. There is problem when we used Han Ji to writing in the past, it can lead to misunderstanding.

Same story could related to Ho Chi Minh, when he said about "Communism proletariat" it doesn't mean he is muscle worker or Jew (Karl Max is jew), it is just an idea of him under Marxism - Leninism about the fighting or struggle between Capitalist and Worker class in history (period of Capitalism) .

Relax, first we should not pay too much attention to a world (in this case "Han") and exaggerate the meaning. Chinese say "Han" is a cultural umbrella. It does not refer to ethnics, races, countries or political view. As we know three key elements of Han cultures and custom are Ancestor worship, Confucism and Taoism. We can discuss the topic to death.

For example, who am I?

For the Germans, I am a German because I live in the country, work for German company, have a German passport and am familiar with their cultures and custom. For most of the people I am seen as German. I accept this without problem. Besides, I am seen as Viet because my parents are Vietnamese, and I was born in Vietnam. I accept this, too. So I am free to decide which group I belong to: I take both views. For others it may be different.

Second, We are ethnic Kinh, the ethnic minorities are generally seen as moi (barbarians). I understand that is not a nice view. You mentioned Gia Long and Ho Chi Minh. Below again I post the link of the article in wiki telling about Emperor Gia Long. Ho Chi Minh did not say anything about Han.


Sinocentrism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, Vietnam was also heavily Sinicized, using Classical Chinese as its official literary language and adopting most aspects of Chinese culture, including the administrative system, architecture, philosophy, religion, literature of China, and even a general cultural outlook. Vietnam persistently identified itself in relation to China, regarding itself as the kingdom of the south as against China in the north, as seen in this line from a poem (in Classical Chinese) by General Lý Thường Kiệt (李常傑) (1019–1105): Nam Quốc sơn hà Nam Đế cư. (南國山河南帝居), which means "Over mountains and rivers of the South reigns the Emperor of the South"

In adopting Chinese customs, the Vietnamese court also adopted Sinocentric world view as it became increasingly Confucianist during the expanding Le and Nguyen dynasties. In 1805, the Emperor Gia Long referred to Vietnam as trung quốc, the "middle kingdom".[9] In 1811, Gia Long proposed a law Hán di hữu hạn (漢夷有限), which means "making clear the border between the Vietnamese and barbarians", referring to the Vietnamese as Han people.[10] Cambodia was regularly called Cao Man Quốc (高蠻國), the country of "upper barbarians". In 1815, Gia Long claimed 13 countries as Vietnamese vassals, including Luang Prabang, Vientane, Burma, Tran Ninh Plateau in eastern Laos, and two countries called "Thủy Xá Quốc" and "Hỏa Xá Quốc", which were actually Malayo-Polynesian Jarai tribes living between Vietnam and Thailand. Mirroring the Chinese model, the Vietnamese court attempted to regulate the presentation of tribute to the Vietnamese court, participation in New Year and emperor's birthday ceremonies, as well as the travel routes and size of tributary missions.[11]

 

[Viet]

Then you shouldn't have call that guy a troll since she is defending our people from that creature's nonsense.

I was referring to the post #688 of wholegrain. I asked him for providing sources, and he replied by posting 8 books and 2 web links. Very funny. Besides, he intentionally provoked me by posting a link of Chinese massacre on Vietnamese sailors in 1988.

 

[EastSea]

I´m tired of such discussion. Will this ever end?

Look, actually we should answer two basic questions: Who are the Chinese and who are the Han people?

Well, the first question is easily answered: all citizens within China border are Chinese. Agreed?
So Chinese people consist of the Han (92%) as majority and 55 other ethnic groups (8%).

Who are the ethnic groups:

The major minority ethnic groups are Zhuang (16.9 million), Hui (10.5 million), Manchu (10.3 million), Uyghur (10 million), Miao (9.4 million),Yi (8.7 million), Tujia (8.3 million), Tibetan (6.2 million), Mongol (5.9 million), Dong (2.8 million), Buyei (2.8 million), Yao (2.7 million), Bai(1.9 million), Korean (1.8 million), Hani (1.6 million), Li (1.4 million),Kazakh (1.4 million), and Dai (1.2 million).

And who are the Han?

First, Han Chinese trace their ancestry back to the Huaxia people, who lived along the Huang He or Yellow River in northern China. But more than that. Han people are those who embrace common Han´s cultures and custom. They are NOT defined by blood line, e.i. they are mixed, consisting of different ethnic groups. Hakka is Han.

Second, and what are Han´s cultures and custom?

Basically, three components make up the Han: Ancestor worship, Confuciasm and Taoism. Han Chinese speak Mandarin and some dozen dialects. KirovAirship says he is Han, so he is. End of discussion. Imagine: you are an alien coming from Mars planet, if you adopt Han´s cultures and custom, you become Han. Clear?

We the Viets are the Han, too, as per this definition because most of us practice Ancestor worship, Confuciasm and Taoism. You can say we are Han Viet, and they are Han Chinese. At the beginning of the 19 century, even our Emperor Gia Long declared explicitly Vietnam as Middle Kingdom and his people as the Han.

I hope that is clear now we all can stop here. Last but not least, pls stop discussing on "blood line". Only NAZI cares of a such thing.

Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of ethnic groups in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you have misunderstanding the base definition of concept "ethnicity" or "ethnic group" and do not understand concepts of "Nation" and concept of "Citizenship".

Ethnic group shall defined base on 4 ethnic identity criteria:

1. shared descent ("of the same blood")
2. shared language ("speaking the same language")
3. shared sanctuaries and sacrifices
4. shared customs

Ethnic group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In case of a group of people could satisfy only one of four criteria mentioned above, it should not make this group people to be recognize automatically as one ethnic group.

For example using chopsticks by meals. China, Korean and Japan people use chopsticks, but they don't shared same ethnicity.

You said that Kinh people are Han, or Han Viet, íts wrong. You forgotten that Jingzu ỏr Gin people is one separate ethnic group in China (CPC) is recognized by law.

any case, I stop for the matter of Bloodline. But I will response reasonably for any troll if it could be here.

 

[yue10]

Go **** yourself Pro-Yue Viet Kinh Nationalists or whatever you call yourself. I am Han Chinese Cantonese and I have more Chinese blood than you all Pro-Yue Viet Kinh Nationalists all combined, you Kinh/Khmer/etc. There is about 1 million Chinese out of 90+ million in Vietnam, and they will be Kinh-nized/Viet-nized real soon.

Go read a book about EVOLUTION.

Debunked since 2005.
Why are southern Han considered "Hanized" natives? - Chinese Ethnic Groups and Peoples - China History Forum, Chinese History Forum

could someone tell me if the dude here is true Kinh? since he most likely carried o2a and 'preserved original Kinh paternal blood lineage'

also could someone said why the first capital was in Hoa Lu and not Hanoi as it should be

 

[EastSea]

could someone tell me if the dude here is true Kinh? since he most likely carried o2a and 'preserved original Kinh paternal blood lineage'

also could someone said why the first capital was in Hoa Lu and not Hanoi as it should be

He don't look like Vietnamese, bro.

Hoa Lu is hometown of our Emperor Dinh Tien Hoang, who is founder of Dinh Dynasty of Vietnam. There was first capital of us.

 

[Snomannen]

I think you have misunderstanding the base definition of concept "ethnicity" or "ethnic group" and do not understand concepts of "Nation" and concept of "Citizenship".

Ethnic group shall defined base on 4 ethnic identity criteria:

1. shared descent ("of the same blood")
2. shared language ("speaking the same language")
3. shared sanctuaries and sacrifices
4. shared customs

Ethnic group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In case of a group of people could satisfy only one of four criteria mentioned above, it should not make this group people to be recognize automatically as one ethnic group.

For example using chopsticks by meals. China, Korean and Japan people use chopsticks, but they don't shared same ethnicity.

You said that Kinh people are Han, or Han Viet, íts wrong. You forgotten that Jingzu ỏr Gin people is one separate ethnic group in China (CPC) is recognized by law.

any case, I stop for the matter of Bloodline. But I will response reasonably for any troll if it could be here.

Next time when you try to be stupid and copy & paste from your Mr.Wikipedia, try to ACTUALLY read it:

Herodotus (8.144.2) gave a famous account of what defined Greek (Hellenic) ethnic identity in his day, enumerating

1. shared descent (ὅμαιμον - homaimon, "of the same blood"[14])
2. shared language (ὁμόγλωσσον - homoglōsson, "speaking the same language"[15])
3. shared sanctuaries and sacrifices (Greek: θεῶν ἱδρύματά τε κοινὰ καὶ θυσίαι - theōn hidrumata te koina kai thusiai)[16]
4. shared customs (Greek: ἤθεα ὁμότροπα - ēthea homotropa, "customs of like fashion")

No wonder there are such old, outdated concept of Shared Customs and even Shared Descent. People who has a normal brain would have found that these definitions are abnormal and inappropriate NOWADAYS.

 

[yue10]

He don't look like Vietnamese, bro.

Hoa Lu is hometown of our Emperor Dinh Tien Hoang, who is founder of Dinh Dynasty of Vietnam. There was first capital of us.

stop your calling me as 'bro' ok my Annam friend, look here your quote

Congratulation to 40 million True Native Cantonese. There is great when you can preserved your original Nan Yue paternal blood lineage and your Tai/Katay language with 8
tonal.
Cantonese native people don't let such fake Hans cheating you, immigrated in time of collapsing of Tang Dynasty. Hakka are not Han, they are Xiongnu (Xi Rong). Hokkien are mixed with nomads (Bei Di), they preserved many Altaic words, which they shared with Korean and Japanese in ancient time.
Native pure Nan YUE people speak Yue langguange.

idiot Annams should not trusting this genetic stuff
the dude in pic is paternally descended from Kinh, his grandfather, a '100%' Kinh passed down probably o2a to his father, his father passed o2a to him, according your Annam logic he is 'preserved original Kinh paternal blood lineage' so he true Kinh no?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_Trinh-Duc

the question is why is the capital in Hoa Lu and not Hanoi, isn't Kinh is supposed to be Jiaozhi commandery people so what the capital doing all the way in the south at Ninh Binh

 

[Viet]

I think you have misunderstanding the base definition of concept "ethnicity" or "ethnic group" and do not understand concepts of "Nation" and concept of "Citizenship".

Ethnic group shall defined base on 4 ethnic identity criteria:

1. shared descent ("of the same blood")
2. shared language ("speaking the same language")
3. shared sanctuaries and sacrifices
4. shared customs

Ethnic group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In case of a group of people could satisfy only one of four criteria mentioned above, it should not make this group people to be recognize automatically as one ethnic group.

For example using chopsticks by meals. China, Korean and Japan people use chopsticks, but they don't shared same ethnicity.

You said that Kinh people are Han, or Han Viet, íts wrong. You forgotten that Jingzu ỏr Gin people is one separate ethnic group in China (CPC) is recognized by law.

any case, I stop for the matter of Bloodline. But I will response reasonably for any troll if it could be here.

Again, we are talking of who are Han people and what are Han´s cultures and custom.

As KirovAirship says, (and correct me if I´m wrong) Han people share a common cultures and custom, you can say a single cultural umbrella. Besides Ancester worship, Confucism and Taoism, Buddhism is another character of the Han. The Han people are heterogeneous, they belong to different ethnics and speak different Chinese dialects with mandarin as preferred languague. But first and foremost Han is not about DNA, nations, languages, ethnics or races. It is not about citizenship, either. At least no directly related. Well, China is the home of the Han, and most of the Han have a common DNA trait. No doubt about it.

How about the Jing people in China? why this ethnic minority, which immigrated from Vietnam hundreds of years ago is seen as minority and not Han? I can´t tell you, but I assume it is a matter of politics. Perhaps KirovAirship can tell us why? In this point, we see Han concept is a bit cloudy.

The concept of Han is reminds me to that of Western countries, called "Christian traditions". It is somewhat similar. As you know the European Union (EU) is an economic and political union of 28 independent states, and all of them share Christian traditions. Germany is a part of it. France, too.

What are Christian traditions of these western countries? well, they are a set of similar traditions, religions (most Christians), cultures and custom which are developed and evolved with the times. For instance the French, the Germans and the Greeks think they belong to a family.

Here is a graph showing different christian traditions, but one common root:

Since decades (50 years), Turkey is trying to become a member of this family, they fail. Why? Because the Turks are Muslims. They have different cultures and custom. Others don´t want them.

 

[Snomannen]

The concept of ethnic in China and other East Asian nations didn't follow the western/ modern definition. Yet no matter which definition you refer to, there is always a common -Han people is not defined by bloodline.

There were countless ethnics form Northern China are not "existed" anymore, since they were all sinicized and mixed with Huaxia 華夏族 (descendant of the people of Xia Shang and Zhou):

鮮卑 Xianbei, encouraged themselves to be sinicized and copied everything from Han culture;

女 真 Jurchen, founder of Jing Dynasty, had themselves to learn Han culture. The princess of Jing was even being called "Han Princess 漢公主". Many of them became Han during the Yuan Dynasty and the rest who didn't being sinicized much (lived outside the middle land) became the ancestor of Manchurian;

契丹Khitan, most of them either became part of Mongolian or part of Han.

In my opinion, Gin (Kinh) people is not included as Han because of both political and cultural reasons. Based on what I have learned from the government website, Gin people can speak Mandarin, Cantonese and Vietnamese and own both Han and Kinh cultures. They are considered as a monitory because they can present as a bridge of maintaining the relationship between Chinese and Vietnamese and the matter of protecting various cultures in China.

 

[EastSea]

stop your calling me as 'bro' ok my Annam friend, look here your quote


idiot Annams should not trusting this genetic stuff
the dude in pic is paternally descended from Kinh, his grandfather, a '100%' Kinh passed down probably o2a to his father, his father passed o2a to him, according your Annam logic he is 'preserved original Kinh paternal blood lineage' so he true Kinh no?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

the question is why is the capital in Hoa Lu and not Hanoi, isn't Kinh is supposed to be Jiaozhi commandery people so what the capital doing all the way in the south at Ninh Binh

OK, I stop call you as "bro", I will call you "kid".

Read again my comment above, I said "he doesn't look like Vietnamese" I didn't said that "he is not Vietnamese". Its' different.

when I have been to in Europa, my class mate is Jew, he told me "If your mother is Jew, you are Jew. If your father is Jew, you should be not Jew". So that Obama is Jew.

for the case of François Trinh-Duc, we have to make a DNA testing, the result should tell us who is he, is he Vietnamese or not. Do you understand, kid ?

For the Capital City of Vietnam, it was changed time to time. There was Phong Chau, Melinh, Co Loa, Hoa Lu, Thang long, Hue, Saigon ... It's depended on own willing of our Kings, where is good position for defense counter our enemies.