Historical evidences for engagement of Islamic scholars by the government after Pakistan was founded and while Jinnah was alive

[Ssan]

This thread will discuss the above.

This is related to this thread here.

Historical evidences for the arguments as to what sort of Pakistan the founding fathers wanted

I wanted to open up a thread where we could present historical evidence for the arguments related to what sort of Pakistan the founding fathers (primarily Jinnah and Iqbal for now) wanted. Clearly, we do have disagreements on this topic. So I wanted to create a thread where we could discuss this...

defence.pk

These are the rules for this thread:-

1) we want to quote only primary sources. If the primary source doesn’t exist publicly, we want to quote the closest secondary source that talks about the primary source you are referring to. If possible, link the primary source web link, if available. The goal is to remain as close to the source as possible that can be easily verified publicly. You can ofc however link context around sources or events however.

2) feel free to use studies but do not post the studies as primary sources. You can quote the primary source reference in the study and then say that you find the reference for this in said secondary source study.

3) feel free to posit an opinion and question a source or say why you think that said source is unreliable. Please keep said opinions polite however. Ultimately reader will judge based on evidence provided.

 

[Ssan]

@M. Sarmad

First, let’s talk about the committee headed by Usmani to advise on the constitution in 1948. This committee is not to be confused with the BPC committee that was formed after the objectives resolution passed in 1949. We are talking about a committee of scholars headed by Usmani that worked while Jinnah was alive in early to mid 1948.

Luckily we do have some primary sources of this meeting. Primarily firsthand witnessing of this board by the various people who served on it.

1.
We have mufti Muhammad Shafi- he would serve on the first committee, then on BPC special committee in 1949 and then founded Darul Uloom Deoband Karachi. Died well after in 1976 so left a few artifacts like below.

Rare Radio Interview with Shaykh Mufti Shafi’ al-Deobandi

Interview with Shaykh Mufti Shafi’ on Radio Pakistan Radio Pakistan Interviewer: Listeners, Today we are present in the company of Maulana (Mufti) Shafi Saheb (RA). Maulana (Mufti) Shafi Sahe…

hayatalulama.wordpress.com

Audio:-

In an interview he gave on radio Pakistan, the audio files of which also exist and are archived and linked above too, he says:-

“I accompanied Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (RA) for his detailed 6 day tour of the province and eventually due to doings of Allah (SWT) Pakistan was formed. Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (RA) arrived in Pakistan on the same night (of independence) while I remained in Deoband with my luggage packed but the horrible massacres riots and bloodbath which started (in East Punjab) with the independence blocked all the way (of travel). After eight months upon the request of Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (RA) I arrived in Pakistan and foremost was the need to prepare a skeleton of an Islamic constitution and for this purpose, I, Shaykh Sulaiman Nadwi (RA) and Dr Hameedullah (RA), Maulana Manzir Ahsan Gilani (RA) were invited from India. This worthless individual, Dr Hameedullah (RA) and Maulana Manzir Ahsan Gilani (RA) arrived on time but Shaykh Sulaiman Nadwi (RA) arrived sometime later [my interposition:- “kuch baad me pohachay”]. We did produce a framework for an Islamic constitution but never had the opportunity to present it (formally) until in 1949 the legislative Assembly was formed here and for an Islamic education board the choice of recommendations was given to Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (RA) who recommended me and the same individuals (previously mentioned)”

Notice that this particular committee, including Gilani, is different than the one that was constituted in the BPC. Also note that mufti is explicit that he moved to Pakistan March-April 1948 upon invitation of Usmani for the constitution consulting process. Also notice that mufti explicitly states that Nadvi was invited in 1948; although he didn’t arrive for this committee, he did arrive for BPC formed in 1949 (I think he arrived 1950).

2.

From the previous para, it’s clear that Usmani was calling people from south asia who were not necessarily even Pakistani. One of the aforementioned people who also sat on the BPC committee was Mohammad Hamidullah.

Everything in biographical sketch below can be verified by any biography document online. Not worth attaching because there are so many.

Curiously, Hamidullah was nominally Deobandi. But him and his teacher Ahsan Gilani were experts in Islamic international and constitutional law. He had western education from France and classical Islamic education from Hyderabad. You can look at this lectures on YouTube, Bahawalpur lectures to get a sense of the man.

He never accepted Pakistani citizenship or Indian citizenship and instead chose to live stateless for his whole life. Taught primarily in universities in France. People rightly say he was a modern Sufi- brilliant and pious.

Anyways, we know that he was in Pakistan in 1948- after the blockade of Hyderabad started, there is an artifact of him being smuggled out of Hyderabad to Karachi by Sidney Cotton in 1948 - recorded in “memoirs of Sidney Cotton by Omar Khalidi.”

We have him leaving Pakistan to plead for Hyderabad at the UN but tragically, he arrived a day or two after Hyderabad had surrendered ( Sept 1948). To be clear, this puts him in Karachi pre-Sept 1948.

Secondly, while Hamidullah’s episode in Pakistan was a very small affair in the grand scheme of his life and accomplishments as far as most people were concerned, we do have records of his participation in the committee in 1948.

According to Nadira Mustapha doctoral thesis (published June 2002), he never did write a bio about himself that we know of in his prime - https://escholarship.mcgill.ca/downloads/9z903168j?locale=en

He did allow some biographical sketches of himself to be written in 1999 (he died in late 2002). These seem to be collected in Islamic horizons magazines - the magazine publication of ISNA in the US. Because these were biographical sketches were published while he was alive and with his permission, the details are verified from himself.

According to Omer Abdullah’s article “Muhammad Hamidullah: a lifetime of service to Islamic Scholarship.” Islamic Horizons July-Aug 1999 issue, he is working on the committee advising on Islamic nature of constitution in 1948. Nadira Mustapha also quotes above in p.25 of her thesis, attached above.

Ofc, we have many biographical sketches after his death, that mention his participation in the committee in 1948, see https://iei.kau.edu.sa/Files/121/Files/152672_50-HamidullahBook.pdf.pdf
P.4 abt meeting in 1948. But this is not first person like the biographical sketches while he was still alive.

3.

The third person we have recording this event with a number of artifacts is Zafar Ahmad Ansari. He was joint secretary of the Muslim League and served in the constituent assembly. Later he would also serve in the BPC in 1949 too. Died in 1991 so we have artifacts from him too.

According to his urdu work, tahreek Pakistan Awr Ulema, p. 240, he talks about how people met for three months and a comprehensive draft of proposals was prepared in mid-1948.

4.

Finally, we have a contemporary observer of the time in Leonard Binder.

Leonard Binder - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

While Prof Binder has biases in his work, “Religion and Politics in Pakistan.” Published in 1961, his work also documents the committee in 1948. Its not clear how close of an observer he was but he writes in his book, p.33 (free preview for this available in link below)-

Religion and Politics in Pakistan

books.google.com

“In summer of 1948…several ulema met at the residence of Maulana Shabir Ahmad Usmani and worked out a plan for a semi-independent ministry of religious affairs. The plan has never been published but it is said to have been complete and detailed even to the names of the secretaries and under-secretaries.”

He continues to list out the details of the proposal further.

@Muhammad Saftain Anjum

 

[Ssan]

Secondly, in this backdrop of ulema meeting at Usmani’s residence, we have to ask the obvious, what was Jinnahs role in all of this? Why would the ulema be meeting (early to mid 1948) to make proposals to ensure an Islamic nature of the constitution without his input?

Luckily, we don’t really have to make any guesses here. We actually do have Jinnah writing letters in early 1948 to ask for ulema to come to consult on these matters. The following letter is verified by both Ayesha Jalal and Ishtiaq Ahmad. (But given that we know where it is, maybe we can have other brothers go and verify it too in British archives.)

In a letter he wrote to Hassan Al Banna dated January 1948, we have him saying:-

A friendship fit for a king

As Pakistan commits 5,000 operational troops to Saudi Arabia to become part of its 33-nation counter-terrorism coalition, some Pakistanis wonder why we

www.thefridaytimes.com

Also verified by personally by Ishtiaq Ahmed in “Jinnah : His success, failures and role of history” by Ishtiaq Ahmed - p434, ch 18 under Mandal and Zafarullah

“I am writing you, the great Moslem Leader, to inform you that I am determined, by God’s will, to save Pakistan from the tyranny of imperialism and the various hostile currents. I have therefore decided to follow the advice you kindly gave me in a recent letter, that my Government should assume a purely Islamic character and work, in close co-operation with the other strong international Islamic organisations which are headed by your Ikhwan Al- Muslimun society.
I therefore ask you, Brother, to send me as soon as possible Ustaz Saleh El-Ashmawy… study together the question of how to build our Islamic government and build [the] idea of the Islamic league. . .”

The letter is contained in an original note of the UK high commissioner. Apparently, the letter from Jinnah was copied and sent to the high commissioner. The original note is kept in Kew Gardens as file no: DO 142/476. I have verified that the record exists online here.

Relations between Pakistan and Islamic countries in Middle East | The National Archives

The official archive of the UK government. Our vision is to lead and transform information management, guarantee the survival of today's information for tomorrow and bring history to life for everyone.

discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Given that we know it is in archives in England, maybe a few brothers who live there can go and create a digital copy for us for public record.

So essentially, it does seem that Jinnah was well aware of this committee and was inviting scholars to come and consult on it as early as Jan 1948. This lines up with scholars who never even became Pakistani (Gilani and Hamidullah) come and consult on the board in 1948.

 

[Ssan]

Third, we have the curious case of the department of Islamic reconstruction lead by Muhammad Asad.

We don’t seem to have much in the way of government documents detailing why it was formed or it’s official work except for what seems to be three key pieces of documents.

First we have the govt record in the finance bill confirming its existence:-

1. the PAC finance bill in 1947-1948 p.xviii https://pap.gov.pk/uploads/downloads/pac-reports/pac-1947-1948.pdf
2. and the finance in 1948-1948 (which I cannot find a public digitized record of) with its exact budget mentioned in this thesis dissertation doc - https://www.theses.fr/2018PSLEH094.pdf

Second, we have the summary of the proposal that the department furnished to the Constituent assembly in mid 1948 in the book published by Asad and as claimed by Asad in the book too. For those interested in a point of view of what an Islamic state is- you can refer to what Asad published that is documented here. It’s ~80 pages long but pertinent to the larger discussion.

http://muhammad-asad.com/Principles-State-Government-Islam.pdf

3.

This last one is a radio Pakistan speech by Asad on the forming of the department that he headed and highlighting its need. The department is not directly mentioned here but this seems to be what people seem to infer the speech is for. Somewhat questionable I’ll admit.

Calling All Muslims - Radio Broadcasts of Muhammad Asad. | PDF | Muhammad Ali Jinnah | Pakistan

The following seven radio broadcasts were delivered by Muhammad Asad (formerly, Leopold Weiss) from Lahore at the request of the Government of Pakistan in the late summer of 1947 i.e. immediately after the separation of Pakistan from India. The broadcasts were delivered by Asad in English...

www.scribd.com

Now while I was doing research of the above, I was unable to find the original proposal submitted by the department or its original charter that it was created on. I found reference to it in secondary sources but quite frankly it seems lost in the archives.

In fact, a great deal seems lost in the archives too. I saw a lot of gaslighting by our secular friends that questioned whether such a department even existed. Which is strange because that can clearly be debunked by official govt documents from that period that I have attached above.

Nonetheless, I think the department above and its poor archival record is a good lightning pole to highlight the absolute joke of archival resources in Pakistan. Even the document I refer to above which is available online needed me to pull request it for more than 10 days before it would pull. It’s literally like pulling teeth and nails. None of the digitized documents seem to be ocr pdf searchable either. The whole thing is a mess. To save others the issue of polling the govt website, I attach the pdf here as well.

I also tried to pull the minutes and meetings of the Muslim league parliamentary meetings. No luck there. Supposedly, the library is digitized but the website is broken.

Maybe more on this later. In the meanwhile, I leave the readers with this article that highlights the terrible and pathetic state of the archives in Pakistan. Everything that exists in the public domain is at best incomplete. https://dissertationreviews.org/three-archives-in-pakistan/

 

[Ssan]

Finally, on the question of Zafarullah’s role in the constitution process in 1948.

I don’t find much direct primary source evidence to support his involvement- the closest I find is in Begum Shahnawaz’s pronouncement of his and Nishtars role in framing the objectives resolution. This is mentioned in her autobiography, “Father and Daughter: A Political Autobiography” p.230-231.

Given that she served in the constituent assembly at the time, and was actually opposed to the objectives resolution, although she voted for it eventually, it seems she may know more about the matter.

I suppose it would be nice to know what the authors of
http://nihcr.edu.pk/Downloads/Dr.Ra...Pressure Group to Political Stake Holders.pdf

got there info from regarding Zafarullah heading the committee. Maybe we can reach out to them and see if they have original documents.

Anyways, the authors above do note that this committee was a committee of the ML, not of the constituent assembly of Pakistan- which makes sense in lines of what the minority member on the CAP said that was referenced earlier in the debates of the objectives resolution on the floor of the parliament.

 

[Ssan]

@El Sidd @SaadH @Jango @M. Sarmad @VCheng @Sayfullah @Dalit

Brothers I’m still interviewing this week but would love critical feedback and would really love help in exploring other themes on the master thread of this.

Historical evidences for the arguments as to what sort of Pakistan the founding fathers wanted

I wanted to open up a thread where we could present historical evidence for the arguments related to what sort of Pakistan the founding fathers (primarily Jinnah and Iqbal for now) wanted. Clearly, we do have disagreements on this topic. So I wanted to create a thread where we could discuss this...

defence.pk

 

[M. Sarmad]

@M. Sarmad

First, let’s talk about the committee headed by Usmani to advise on the constitution in 1948. This committee is not to be confused with the BPC committee that was formed after the objectives resolution passed in 1949. We are talking about a committee of scholars headed by Usmani that worked while Jinnah was alive in early to mid 1948.

Luckily we do have some primary sources of this meeting. Primarily firsthand witnessing of this board by the various people who served on it.

1.
We have mufti Muhammad Shafi- he would serve on the first committee, then on BPC special committee in 1949 and then founded Darul Uloom Deoband Karachi. Died well after in 1976 so left a few artifacts like below.

Rare Radio Interview with Shaykh Mufti Shafi’ al-Deobandi

Interview with Shaykh Mufti Shafi’ on Radio Pakistan Radio Pakistan Interviewer: Listeners, Today we are present in the company of Maulana (Mufti) Shafi Saheb (RA). Maulana (Mufti) Shafi Sahe…

hayatalulama.wordpress.com

Audio:-

In an interview he gave on radio Pakistan, the audio files of which also exist and are archived and linked above too, he says:-

“I accompanied Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (RA) for his detailed 6 day tour of the province and eventually due to doings of Allah (SWT) Pakistan was formed. Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (RA) arrived in Pakistan on the same night (of independence) while I remained in Deoband with my luggage packed but the horrible massacres riots and bloodbath which started (in East Punjab) with the independence blocked all the way (of travel). After eight months upon the request of Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (RA) I arrived in Pakistan and foremost was the need to prepare a skeleton of an Islamic constitution and for this purpose, I, Shaykh Sulaiman Nadwi (RA) and Dr Hameedullah (RA), Maulana Manzir Ahsan Gilani (RA) were invited from India. This worthless individual, Dr Hameedullah (RA) and Maulana Manzir Ahsan Gilani (RA) arrived on time but Shaykh Sulaiman Nadwi (RA) arrived sometime later [my interposition:- “kuch baad me pohachay”]. We did produce a framework for an Islamic constitution but never had the opportunity to present it (formally) until in 1949 the legislative Assembly was formed here and for an Islamic education board the choice of recommendations was given to Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (RA) who recommended me and the same individuals (previously mentioned)”

Notice that this particular committee, including Gilani, is different than the one that was constituted in the BPC. Also note that mufti is explicit that he moved to Pakistan March-April 1948 upon invitation of Usmani for the constitution consulting process. Also notice that mufti explicitly states that Nadvi was invited in 1948; although he didn’t arrive for this committee, he did arrive for BPC formed in 1949 (I think he arrived 1950).

2.

From the previous para, it’s clear that Usmani was calling people from south asia who were not necessarily even Pakistani. One of the aforementioned people who also sat on the BPC committee was Mohammad Hamidullah.

Everything in biographical sketch below can be verified by any biography document online. Not worth attaching because there are so many.

Curiously, Hamidullah was nominally Deobandi. But him and his teacher Ahsan Gilani were experts in Islamic international and constitutional law. He had western education from France and classical Islamic education from Hyderabad. You can look at this lectures on YouTube, Bahawalpur lectures to get a sense of the man.

He never accepted Pakistani citizenship or Indian citizenship and instead chose to live stateless for his whole life. Taught primarily in universities in France. People rightly say he was a modern Sufi- brilliant and pious.

Anyways, we know that he was in Pakistan in 1948- after the blockade of Hyderabad started, there is an artifact of him being smuggled out of Hyderabad to Karachi by Sidney Cotton in 1948 - recorded in “memoirs of Sidney Cotton by Omar Khalidi.”

We have him leaving Pakistan to plead for Hyderabad at the UN but tragically, he arrived a day or two after Hyderabad had surrendered ( Sept 1948). To be clear, this puts him in Karachi pre-Sept 1948.

Secondly, while Hamidullah’s episode in Pakistan was a very small affair in the grand scheme of his life and accomplishments as far as most people were concerned, we do have records of his participation in the committee in 1948.

According to Nadira Mustapha doctoral thesis (published June 2002), he never did write a bio about himself that we know of in his prime - https://escholarship.mcgill.ca/downloads/9z903168j?locale=en

He did allow some biographical sketches of himself to be written in 1999 (he died in late 2002). These seem to be collected in Islamic horizons magazines - the magazine publication of ISNA in the US. Because these were biographical sketches were published while he was alive and with his permission, the details are verified from himself.

According to Omer Abdullah’s article “Muhammad Hamidullah: a lifetime of service to Islamic Scholarship.” Islamic Horizons July-Aug 1999 issue, he is working on the committee advising on Islamic nature of constitution in 1948. Nadira Mustapha also quotes above in p.25 of her thesis, attached above.

Ofc, we have many biographical sketches after his death, that mention his participation in the committee in 1948, see https://iei.kau.edu.sa/Files/121/Files/152672_50-HamidullahBook.pdf.pdf
P.4 abt meeting in 1948. But this is not first person like the biographical sketches while he was still alive.

3.

The third person we have recording this event with a number of artifacts is Zafar Ahmad Ansari. He was joint secretary of the Muslim League and served in the constituent assembly. Later he would also serve in the BPC in 1949 too. Died in 1991 so we have artifacts from him too.

According to his urdu work, tahreek Pakistan Awr Ulema, p. 240, he talks about how people met for three months and a comprehensive draft of proposals was prepared in mid-1948.

4.

Finally, we have a contemporary observer of the time in Leonard Binder.

Leonard Binder - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

While Prof Binder has biases in his work, “Religion and Politics in Pakistan.” Published in 1961, his work also documents the committee in 1948. Its not clear how close of an observer he was but he writes in his book, p.33 (free preview for this available in link below)-

Religion and Politics in Pakistan

books.google.com

“In summer of 1948…several ulema met at the residence of Maulana Shabir Ahmad Usmani and worked out a plan for a semi-independent ministry of religious affairs. The plan has never been published but it is said to have been complete and detailed even to the names of the secretaries and under-secretaries.”

He continues to list out the details of the proposal further.

@Muhammad Saftain Anjum

I appreciate your efforts, but regarding the government of Pakistan setting up a committee of Ulema during the lifetime of Jinnah to draft or advise on the Constitution, there is no evidence to support this claim. I would like to clarify that we are not referring to committees formed by Ulema themselves, as those committees held little to no significance in this context. We are talking about any such committee constituted by the government of Pakistan.

The lack of evidence regarding the existence of such a committee is evident from the constituent assembly archives from that era. Furthermore, in this context, only government documents or archives can be considered as primary sources, rather than relying on claims made by individuals, such as in random interviews or writings, including those of a random Mullah.

 

[Ssan]

I appreciate your efforts, but regarding the government of Pakistan setting up a committee of Ulema during the lifetime of Jinnah to draft or advise on the Constitution, there is no evidence to support this claim. I would like to clarify that we are not referring to committees formed by Ulema themselves, as those committees held little to no significance in this context. We are talking about any such committee constituted by the government of Pakistan.

The lack of evidence regarding the existence of such a committee is evident from the constituent assembly archives from that era. Furthermore, in this context, only government documents or archives can be considered as primary sources, rather than relying on claims made by individuals, such as in random interviews or writings, including those of a random Mullah.

The constituent assembly archives are not going to contain sub-committees of the ML. Primary sources do include first hand testimony. The primary sources indicate that the committee seems to have been formed with the blessing of Jinnah and involved inviting international scholars of repute to come serve on it.

 

[M. Sarmad]

The constituent assembly archives are not going to contain sub-committees of the ML. Primary sources do include first hand testimony. The primary sources indicate that the committee seems to have been formed with the blessing of Jinnah and involved inviting international scholars of repute to come serve on it.

Actually, the constituent assembly archives from that era do mention dozens of committees and sub-committees.

And just went through the source you yourself provided, it says:

"...We did produce a framework for an Islamic constitution but never had the opportunity to present it (formally) until in 1949 the legislative Assembly was formed here and for an Islamic education board the choice of recommendations was given to Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (RA) who recommended me and the same individuals ..."

This^^ should clear up any confusion. There was no official committee or group of Ulema constituted for this purpose by the government of Pakistan, until after the passing of Jinnah, who died in September 1948.

 

[Ssan]

Actually, the constituent assembly archives from that era do mention dozens of committees and sub-committees.

And just went through the source you yourself provided, it says:

"...We did produce a framework for an Islamic constitution but never had the opportunity to present it (formally) until in 1949 the legislative Assembly was formed here and for an Islamic education board the choice of recommendations was given to Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (RA) who recommended me and the same individuals ..."

This^^ should clear up any confusion. There was no official committee or group of Ulema constituted for this purpose by the government of Pakistan, until after the passing of Jinnah, who died in September 1948.

The constituent assembly has sub committees that relate to the constituent assembly itself. Not of all parliamentary party committees and sub-committees.

Nope listen to the urdu, he doesn’t say anything of the sort. The word “formally” that you are clinging to is in brackets. All it means is that they were not able to present it in front of the cap. He never says implicit or explicitly that the work they were working in was not “official”.

As we see in the other pieces of evidence provided, Jinnah himself was inviting scholars to come and discuss the Islamic character of the state.

Your assertion that nothing official existed doesn’t bear weight.

 

[M. Sarmad]

The constituent assembly has sub committees that relate to the constituent assembly itself. Not of all parliamentary party committees and sub-committees.

Nope listen to the urdu, he doesn’t say anything of the sort. The word “formally” that you are clinging to is in brackets. He never says implicit or explicitly that the work they were working in was not “official”.

As we see in the other pieces of evidence provided, Jinnah himself was inviting scholars to come and discuss the Islamic character of the state.

Your assertion that nothing official existed doesn’t bear weight.

I simply quoted the exact words from the source you yourself provided. The timeline of 1949 should indeed be sufficient to dispel any confusion. Jinnah had already died in 1948.

And I find it rather intriguing that you have presented a proposition without providing compelling evidence to substantiate it. You suggest the existence of committees constituted by the government (and comprising Mullahs) during the lifetime of Jinnah, entrusted with the task of drafting an Islamic Constitution. Jinnah, who demonstrated his impartiality by appointing a Hindu as the law minister, did not establish any such committees. When confronted with the absence of primary sources supporting your assertion, you have resorted to shifting the onus of proof !!?. Let me remind you, my friend, you are the one making the assertion that such committees existed and functioned OFFICIALLY during Jinnah's lifetime and the burden of proof lies with you. If you assert something to be "officially" true, it is incumbent upon you to provide substantiation in the form of an official document, rather than relying on the claims made by some xyz Mullah...

You may take as much time as you need to provide your evidence from a primary source, but frankly, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to do so, as no evidence supporting your claim exists. Moreover, currently, Pakistan is facing an existential crisis that demands our immediate attention. Engaging in endless and unproductive historical-political debates like this should not be a priority.

Have a nice day

 

[Ssan]

Hmm, curious

I simply quoted the exact words from the source you yourself provided. The timeline of 1949 should indeed be sufficient to dispel any confusion. Jinnah had already died in 1948.

And I find it rather intriguing that you have presented a proposition without providing compelling evidence to substantiate it. You suggest the existence of committees constituted by the government (and comprising Mullahs) during the lifetime of Jinnah, entrusted with the task of drafting an Islamic Constitution. Jinnah, who demonstrated his impartiality by appointing a Hindu as the law minister, did not establish any such committees. When confronted with the absence of primary sources supporting your assertion, you have resorted to shifting the onus of proof !!?. Let me remind you, my friend, you are the one making the assertion that such committees existed and functioned OFFICIALLY during Jinnah's lifetime and the burden of proof lies with you. If you assert something to be "officially" true, it is incumbent upon you to provide substantiation in the form of an official document, rather than relying on the claims made by some xyz Mullah...

You may take as much time as you need to provide your evidence from a primary source, but frankly, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to do so, as no evidence supporting your claim exists. Moreover, currently, Pakistan is facing an existential crisis that demands our immediate attention. Engaging in endless and unproductive historical-political debates like this should not be a priority.

Have a nice day

I provided a translation of the radio interview in English and the original audio file too. Translation has a word in brackets you are building a faulty argument on if we you listen to the audio.

I’m not sure what you mean by 1949. The narrative clearly places the work of this committee as having been done mid-1948. He even says he was invited to Pakistan for this purpose 8 months after creation. Btw, not only Mufti Muhammad Shafee, all of them, including professor Leonard place the work as being done while Jinnah is alive.

As far as compelling evidence, we have quite a bit here already. We may yet find more. But that is not sufficient reason to doubt the first hand testimony of three members who sat in the BPC committee.

As we can see from the evidence I provided, there are clearly government documents that exist that prove the existence of the department of Islamic reconstruction- the finance bills. Even so, I can find no official documentary evidence of its charter, the proposals or its work. The fact that these records don’t exist are not an indication of the department’s lack of officialness or proof of the lack of existence of its charter or work- simply proof of the fact of absolutely rubbish archiving. So other primary evidence, like Muhammad Asad’s published proposals later, cannot be dispelled so easily.

An impartial person does not just label testimony from 3 different people who serve on a similar committee a year later as just making it up.

As a matter of fact, there is nothing more official, in my mind, than Jinnah writing letters to international scholars and inviting them to come to Pakistan as guests of the state to come up with an Islamic constitution.

Finally, there is no need for such hostility. I feel despondent about the country as well. This is a side project. May Allah guide all of us and save our country.

 

[TNT]

Evwn if ulema were invited, it was wrong. They couldn't unite muslims, created secrs, labelled each other as kafir, so what kind of constitution they could come up with, that united all sects? If anything, mullahs had only strengthened the british raj and after creation of Pakistan, they worked with the colonial proxy army.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Hmm, curious



I provided a translation of the radio interview in English and the original audio file too. Translation has a word in brackets you are building a faulty argument on if we you listen to the audio.

I’m not sure what you mean by 1949. The narrative clearly places the work of this committee as having been done mid-1948. He even says he was invited to Pakistan for this purpose 8 months after creation. Btw, not only Mufti Muhammad Shafee, all of them, including professor Leonard place the work as being done while Jinnah is alive.

As far as compelling evidence, we have quite a bit here already. We may yet find more. But that is not sufficient reason to doubt the first hand testimony of three members who sat in the BPC committee.

As we can see from the evidence I provided, there are clearly government documents that exist that prove the existence of the department of Islamic reconstruction- the finance bills. Even so, I can find no official documentary evidence of its charter, the proposals or its work. The fact that the records don’t exist there are not an indication of its lack of officialness- simply the fact of absolutely rubbish archiving. So other primary evidence, like Muhammad Asad’s published proposals later, cannot be dispelled so easily.

An impartial person does not just label testimony from 3 different people who serve on a similar committee a year later as just making it up.

As a matter of fact, there is nothing more official, in my mind, than Jinnah writing letters to international scholars and inviting them to come to Pakistan as guests of the state to come up with an Islamic constitution.

Finally, there is no need for such hostility. I feel despondent about the country as well. This is a side project. All of us are busy with our own lives.

Now you're mixing up different things here. It's essential to do your homework before making claims. JFYI, there is absolutely no mention of any "Department of Islamic Reconstruction" in the official documents of the Government of Pakistan. And there is no reference to Muhammad Asad in the Jinnah Papers. It was the Mamdot-led government of West Punjab that sought advice from Muhammad Asad.

Regarding the hypothetical committee you keep mentioning, could you kindly enlighten us on its founding date and the identities of its members? Merely resorting to desperate searches on the internet and sharing irrelevant tidbits will not lead you anywhere.

You, of course, are free to believe whatever you want, but the word "official" might not mean exactly what you think it does.

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

Personally I do not have time to get into details.

but Pakistan is supposed to be an Islamic country, otherwise what was the purpose of partition?
To make a "secular liberal Pakistan which is a fake copy of a western country? lol?

If we implement Islamic laws, then Pakistan will become prosperous, Insh'Allah.