Historical evidences for engagement of Islamic scholars by the government after Pakistan was founded and while Jinnah was alive

[M. Sarmad]

but Pakistan is supposed to be an Islamic country, otherwise what was the purpose of partition?
To make a "secular liberal Pakistan which is a fake copy of a western country? lol?

If we implement Islamic laws, then Pakistan will become prosperous, Insh'Allah.

To provide clarity, could you kindly provide practical examples from the past thousand years where such a country as you described has actually existed? If there are no such examples, it would suggest that your suggestion is impractical and should be disregarded.

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

To provide clarity, could you kindly provide practical examples from the past thousand years where such a country as you described has actually existed? If there are no such examples, it would suggest that your suggestion is impractical and should be disregarded.

Saudi Arabia is very close to Islamic, but it is not exactly 100% Islamic.

The early Caliphates were Islamic.

To provide clarity, could you kindly provide practical examples from the past thousand years where such a country as you described has actually existed? If there are no such examples, it would suggest that your suggestion is impractical and should be disregarded.

Oh my, here comes the "secular liberal" member. I know you.

To provide clarity, could you kindly provide practical examples from the past thousand years where such a country as you described has actually existed? If there are no such examples, it would suggest that your suggestion is impractical and should be disregarded.

No there are examples like the Early Madinah era of the Prophet Muhammad's lifetime.

To provide clarity, could you kindly provide practical examples from the past thousand years where such a country as you described has actually existed? If there are no such examples, it would suggest that your suggestion is impractical and should be disregarded.

It is secular liberals like you who should be disregarded.

 

[Ssan]

Evwn if ulema were invited, it was wrong. They couldn't unite muslims, created secrs, labelled each other as kafir, so what kind of constitution they could come up with, that united all sects? If anything, mullahs had only strengthened the british raj and after creation of Pakistan, they worked with the colonial proxy army.

It depends on the type of ulema.

But before we can even start going there, we actually need to ascertain and make up our minds of the historical facts surrounding whether they were called.

Only after we prove that this happened, can we prove that, in fact, these ulema were actually fairly modernist types who had a different conception of an Islamic republic that was more inclusive and tolerant of minorities. Which was Jinnahs vision after all.

Evwn if ulema were invited, it was wrong. They couldn't unite muslims, created secrs, labelled each other as kafir, so what kind of constitution they could come up with, that united all sects? If anything, mullahs had only strengthened the british raj and after creation of Pakistan, they worked with the colonial proxy army.

Also some of them probably did

 

[M. Sarmad]

Saudi Arabia is very close to Islamic

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ​

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ​

Nice try, though you moron.

I have done Hajj and Umrah. But for a moron such as yourself, I could understand why you may not like Saudi Arabia.

 

[Ssan]

Now you're mixing up different things here. It's essential to do your homework before making claims. JFYI, there is absolutely no mention of any "Department of Islamic Reconstruction" in the official documents of the Government of Pakistan. And there is no reference to Muhammad Asad in the Jinnah Papers. It was the Mamdot-led government of West Punjab that sought advice from Muhammad Asad.

Regarding the hypothetical committee you keep mentioning, could you kindly enlighten us on its founding date and the identities of its members? Merely resorting to desperate searches on the internet and sharing irrelevant tidbits will not lead you anywhere.

You, of course, are free to believe whatever you want, but the word "official" might not mean exactly what you think it does.

Wait what do you mean by govt of Pakistan. Does West Punjab not fall under the govt of Pakistan? Do you think that Jinnah did not have almost complete authority to close down departments if he so wanted? Also, frankly, this doesn’t diminish my point about the absolutely poor state of the archives in Pakistan. You won’t find the official charter, bill or proposals of the department in the archives. Doesn’t mean that they did not exist or were not official.

The details of who participated are there in Ansari’s work I referenced above. We don’t have minutes of the meetings but we do know roughly that they met in early to mid 1948 and produced a proposal that was slightly different than what Asad proposed.

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

Wait what do you mean by govt of Pakistan. Does West Punjab not fall under the govt of Pakistan? Do you think that Jinnah did not have almost complete authority to close down departments if he so wanted? Also, frankly, this doesn’t diminish my point about the absolutely poor state of the archives in Pakistan. You won’t find the official charter, bill or proposals of the department in the archives. Doesn’t mean that they did not exist or were not official.

The details of who participated are there in Ansari’s work I referenced above. We don’t have minutes of the meetings but we do know roughly that they met in early to mid 1948 and produced a proposal that was slightly different than what Asad proposed.

Quaid-e-Azam is dead, for almost a century.

Its time to move on. It does not matter what the founding fathers wanted 100 years ago.

 

[M. Sarmad]

... if we you listen to the audio.

I just listened to the audio, Nowhere does he say that they were invited by the government of Pakistan. He actually mentions that he and a few others were invited by his cousin Shabbir Usmani. Jinnah doesn't even come into the picture. All he talks about is this Talimat e Islami Board that was set up in August 1949, and we've already talked about that before.

 

[Ssan]

Quaid-e-Azam is dead, for almost a century.

Its time to move on. It does not matter what the founding fathers wanted 100 years ago.

100 years after Iqbal, I still read him and am mesmerized by his poetry. I also read of Jinnah’s speeches and his works and am stunned by his foresight.

So on the one hand, what Jinnah and Iqbal wanted does matter to me.

But on the other hand, in a country of whose future we are unsure, maybe the past doesn’t really have value either.

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

100 years after Iqbal, I still read him and am mesmerized by his poetry. I also read of Jinnah’s speeches and his works and am stunned by his foresight.

So on the one hand, what Jinnah and Iqbal wanted does matter to me.

But on the other hand, in a country of whose future we are unsure, maybe the past doesn’t really have value either.

And what happens if the founding fathers wanted something contrary to Islam. Would you accept that?

The answer would be No.

And its been almost a 100 years now since 1947. Time set up Pakistan what its supposed to be. A good place for South Asian Muslims.

 

[Ssan]

I just listened to the audio, Nowhere does he say that they were invited by the government of Pakistan. He actually mentions that he and a few others were invited by his cousin Shabbir Usmani. Jinnah doesn't even come into the picture. All he talks about is this Talimat e Islami Board that was set up in August 1949, and we've already talked about that before.

Hamidullah’s biographers mention his participation in 1948 and also in the thesis document I provided, it says that he was offered to stay in the govt house but he declined because he wanted to serve Pakistan.

If Hamidullah was indeed invited on a person invitation by Usmani, it is unthinkable for me that he would be put up in a state house, although frankly I guess, this is Pakistan so I need to adjust my thinking.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Wait what do you mean by govt of Pakistan. Does West Punjab not fall under the govt of Pakistan? Do you think that Jinnah did not have almost complete authority to close down departments if he so wanted? Also, frankly, this doesn’t diminish my point about the absolutely poor state of the archives in Pakistan. You won’t find the official charter, bill or proposals of the department in the archives. Doesn’t mean that they did not exist or were not official.

The details of who participated are there in Ansari’s work I referenced above. We don’t have minutes of the meetings but we do know roughly that they met in early to mid 1948 and produced a proposal that was slightly different than what Asad proposed.

The provincial government of Punjab and the Federal government of Pakistan under Jinnah were not one and the same. They were separate entities with their own jurisdictions and responsibilities. Here we are talking about Jinnah and the Central government of Pakistan, which was responsible for drafting the Constitution. The Punjab government had no authority or involvement in this matter.

 

[Ssan]

And what happens if the founding fathers wanted something contrary to Islam. Would you accept that?

The answer would be No.

And its been almost a 100 years now since 1947. Time set up Pakistan what its supposed to be. A good place for South Asian Muslims.

I mean this is somewhat true.

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

100 years after Iqbal, I still read him and am mesmerized by his poetry. I also read of Jinnah’s speeches and his works and am stunned by his foresight.

So on the one hand, what Jinnah and Iqbal wanted does matter to me.

But on the other hand, in a country of whose future we are unsure, maybe the past doesn’t really have value either.

But if you want to get into details, Jinnah never wanted a "secular republic."

Jinnah never uses the word "secular" in his speeches.

Jinnah talks about Islamic Socialism, justice, and moral principles.

Visit Saleena Karim's website.

 

[Ssan]

I just listened to the audio, Nowhere does he say that they were invited by the government of Pakistan. He actually mentions that he and a few others were invited by his cousin Shabbir Usmani. Jinnah doesn't even come into the picture. All he talks about is this Talimat e Islami Board that was set up in August 1949, and we've already talked about that before.

The story goes as I have said in other threads that Jinnah had set up Usmani to take input from ulema for the task.

I mean this is somewhat true.

And what happens if the founding fathers wanted something contrary to Islam. Would you accept that?

The answer would be No.

And its been almost a 100 years now since 1947. Time set up Pakistan what its supposed to be. A good place for South Asian Muslims.

I suppose I might stop clinging to Pakistan possibly. Give up on it.

But if you want to get into details, Jinnah never wanted a "secular republic."

Jinnah never uses the word "secular" in his speeches.

Jinnah talks about Islamic Socialism, justice, and moral principles.

Visit Saleena Karim's website.

Yup I believe so too. But wanted to document everything clearly as well.