Hindutva: Analyzing the Ideology

[Flintlock]

Wish I had the right forum to explain you , that animist and the tribals of the forest are hindus . let me try in few words .
Brahman is the supreme Soul
Ishwar (god) is our individual perception about that brahmin so anyone can find his god in anything . what matters is your devotion .

Why don't you explain it right here?

Material world is the secondry . the underlying philosophy is the main factor .I think you shall read the Tantra Philosophy to understand this .
that was the reason why , after destruction of temples and its architectural buildings the religion still flourished and we were able to defeat sword with Idea

I don't think so. The religion didn't exactly "flourish". It was practically wiped out till some Englishman opened the Kama Sutra and began to describe the unholy practices of the hindus
(little did he know that his own descendants, a century or so later, would be doing the same stuff)

yes what you expres here is the point where Adiguru also struggled intially and then he devised a way to over come this acceptence of Material world . May be i will explain you in detail some other time

Dude, Indians were dying of famine and disease. Intellect had been practically wiped out of large tracts of Northern India. Do you realize that Bihar was once a great center of research and learning? look that the people there today....they are barely civilized.

On the other hand, look at Kerela, which the Muslims were never able to touch. Its a beautiful state....its what India ought to be.

What use is Hinduism when its practitioners cannot afford to think about anything other their next meal?

Gandhi was not a Thinker (as per Naipaul himself) Naipual have a disliking for Gandhism . you are wrong when u say that hinduism is not the same as what it was before islamic invasion , just because its temples have been demolished . all the philosophy and the ideas are intact in case you want to read them they are still there in all their glory .
and I never said that Hindusim was against materialism , infact it is the only religion which tells how to relish carnal pleasure . but as Geeta Said never get overwhelmed by this out side world . This outside world is Dream . relish it but try to realise that this is illusion .
Hope you get the point

Dude, the point is that Hinduism failed when it came to defending the culture from foreign invaders. That is one giant of a fact that you cannot push aside.

Its all fine and dandy to say that Hinduism survived because of its spiritualism etc. etc., unlike other Pagan religions like Greek or Romans, but it is undeniable that Hinduism failed us in the material world.

And after the material world had fallen, Hinduism retreated to the minds of the few people who could afford to think about it.

Do you think a starving man in the middle of a dry farm in bihar, with no one to turn to when he has no hope, is thinking about Advaita philosophy? No. He is suffering the greatest agony possible, and thee is no religion in the world which can rid him of it.

 

[Logic note]

Why don't you explain it right here?s.

I did , read it carefully

I don't think so. The religion didn't exactly "flourish". It was practically wiped out till some Englishman opened the Kama Sutra and began to describe the unholy practices of the hindus
(little did he know that his own descendants, a century or so later, would be doing the same stuff)

Wiped out ?? are you ok ??
You have no sense of history . Please study History .

Dude, Indians were dying of famine and disease. Intellect had been practically wiped out of large tracts of Northern India. Do you realize that Bihar was once a great center of research and learning? look that the people there today....they are barely civilized.
On the other hand, look at Kerela, which the Muslims were never able to touch. Its a beautiful state....its what India ought to be.
What use is Hinduism when its practitioners cannot afford to think about anything other their next meal?

seems that you , limit civilisation is small pockets and dont see things in totality .. ,
Indians were dying because everyone was . Medivial time was bad for every one even for Christians, which was laced with the mst ignorant and brutal time .
see the whole India at present and its pace of development . its just 60 years of independence. even USA took 200 years to achive the progres.
and HInduism has nothing to do with an individuals inability to make his living .

Dude, the point is that Hinduism failed when it came to defending the culture from foreign invaders. That is one giant of a fact that you cannot push aside.

Dude , stop blaming religion for defeat . thats kiddish
Spain was defeated by Moors because it was Christians?
Muslims lost to Israel because of their faith ?

Do you think a starving man in the middle of a dry farm in bihar, with no one to turn to when he has no hope, is thinking about Advaita philosophy? No. He is suffering the greatest agony possible, and thee is no religion in the world which can rid him of it.

Dude , grow up. spiritualism have nothing to do with economic benefits . you have to work smart and hard for it . you cant blame faith for an individuals failure to make his living and economic progress.

and please don't drag this discussion away from the main topic .
this was about the Hidutva and AND HINDUTVA is about using Political power to consolidate religion ,

 

[Flintlock]

Wiped out ?? are you ok ??
You have no sense of history . Please study History .

I did. Thanks.

seems that you , limit civilisation is small pockets and dont see things in totality .. ,
Indians were dying because everyone was . Medivial time was bad for every one even for Christians, which was laced with the mst ignorant and brutal time .
see the whole India at present and its pace of development . its just 60 years of independence. even USA took 200 years to achive the progres.
and HInduism has nothing to do with an individuals inability to make his living .

Oh please. Don't give me that "everyone had it bad". Medieval Europeans were Ignorant, but they weren't crushed the way Indians were. The whole reason that the Renaissance took place later is because the European society had not suffered a fraction of the damage that Indian society had.

Look at the region of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Can you believe that this area was once a Buddhist-majority region? Today, not a trace of it is left.
Remember, religions dont' change unless something drastic happens.

Let us stop pretending that India "was like any other medieval country". IT was not. A simple look at the conditions in medieval India and medieval Europe will show that apart from tiny pockets of prosperity, the whole country (especially the northern part) was in a state of advanced decay.

How can you reconcile the fact that a region like Bihar (one of the most lawless in the world) is sitting on such a spectacular history? The mindset and quality of people don't get altered so drastically without some great historical calamity.

To Quote Naipaul:

A great chance has been given to India to start up again, and I feel it has started up again. The questions about whether 50 years of India since Independence have been a failure or an achievement are not the questions to
ask. In fact, I think India is developing quite marvellously. People thought-even Mr Nehru thought-that development and new institutions in a place like Bihar, for instance, would immediately lead to beauty. But it doesn't happen like that. When a country as ravaged as India, with all its layers of cruelty, when that kind of country begins to extend justice to people lower down, it's a very messy business. It's not beautiful, it's extremely messy. And that's what you have now, all these small politicians with small reputations and small parties. But this is part of growth, this is part of development. You must remember that these people, and the people they represent. have never had rights before. So in India at the moment you have a million mutinies-every man is a mutiny on his own-and 1 find that entirely creative. It's difficult to manage, gets very messy, but it is the only way forward. You can't get people from Bihar suddenly behaving very beautifully. When the oppressed have the power to assert themselves, they will behave badly. it will need a couple of generations of security, and knowledge of institutions. and the knowledge that you can trust institutions-it will take at least a couple of generations before people in that situation begin to behave well.

Dude , stop blaming religion for defeat . thats kiddish
Spain was defeated by Moors because it was Christians?
Muslims lost to Israel because of their faith ?

Look. Religion doesn't play that much of a role today, but in the ancient world, religion w as everything. It was the basis of decision for almost everything from when to marry your daughter to how to fight the enemy.

Why do you have to automatically extend to the spanish? Did I say that the spanish were defeated because of Christianity? No.
Try to analyze both the invasions on their own merit rather than assume that I am applying this to all religions.

Dude , grow up. spiritualism have nothing to do with economic benefits . you have to work smart and hard for it . you cant blame faith for an individuals failure to make his living and economic progress.

What if your faith tells you that reality is an illusion? What is the common man supposed to make of that? Dude, the average person depends a lot more on religion that you think. Its his only institution which is capable of supporting him.

Look. Try reading my posts a little more carefully. What I said was, that once talent gets wiped out from large tracts of the subcontinent, it takes a long time to revive once again.
However, to make matters worse, we had a religion which, in Gandhi's own words, allowed us the "defy poverty".

If you notice, most nations, if driven to such desperate poverty, would result in social upheaval and some revolution or another. But not India. There was no revolution on the scale that was expected, considering the beating that traditional india had taken.

and please don't drag this discussion away from the main topic .
this was about the Hidutva and AND HINDUTVA is about using Political power to consolidate religion ,

This is about Hindutva. Isn't Hindutva an attempt to change what is wrong with Hinduism?
So what is wrong with Hinduism? Don't pretend that everything is perfect, because it is not.

 

[Flintlock]

I kind of agree with this.

I am of course enraged at what those invaders did to my country, people and civilization but I don't think the answer is to pay back in the same coin now after so long.

Peace is a better alternative. But peace with stength, so that the same does not happen again.

And anyway different civilizations peak at different periods of time. This is in the nature of things. We have had ancient Indian, Chinese, Babelonian, Egyptian, Persian, Greco-Roman, Islamic and now western civilizations which were the best or most developed around at different times.

All of them may have felt that their supremacy is God given, but I don't see God differentiate between his own creation. That would be a very narrow-minded God.

And this will keep on happening in future too. We are already seeing Eastern civilizations gaining ground.

And those who were particularly vicious went down viciously or are going down viciously. May be they deserve some of that.

Most certainly, the answer is not to pay back in the same coin. The perpetrators are long gone, and we cannot take revenge on history.

On the other hand, we must understand how this has changed the nature of our society.

The only answer is to reconcile hindus and muslims, and try to achieve greater integration among the population.

Take the example of Kerala. There are millions of muslims there, but the region has not seen communal riots because the muslims of kerala consider themselves a part of the local society. They don't demand special treatment, and the rest of society doesn't consider them as outsiders.

Sadly, apart from this tiny island of prosperity, and a few more, most of the islamic world is being manipualted by the extremist version of it.
However, because of the monotheistic nature of islam, it is very difficult to fragment islam.
Whether Islam becomes more intolerant or more moderate, the change will affect all muslims, not just some of them.
In such a situation, one must tread carefully, and try to minimize the effect of this ideology on Indian muslims.
If this is not done, the 100 million muslims of india will become a huge liability.

One of the theories of the RSS, to counteract the increasing influence of the Taliban/Al Qaida ideology is to change the loyalty of Indian muslims from mecca to somewhere in India. However, it is not possible to do so without changing the quran (unfeasible).

Another way might be to adopt the Singaporean/Indonesian model and try to convince the Indian muslims to interpret the religion for themselves. This idea that the Saudis are the ones to decide what Islam means, should be removed from the minds of these people.
It is for too long that the Arabs have considered it their sole right to interpret the book. A new movement is needed to interpret Islam to suit the local society, not the arabic one.

The people of Pakistan must also realize that it is not upto the Saudis to tell them how to practice their religion.

 

[Titanium]

Yes, Sufi Saints were a good example of the spiritual side of Islam, which unfortunately seems to be dying out.

How do you come to the conclusion??? care to elaborate???

There are two versions of Hindutva, IMO. The more extreme kind says that anything to do with Islam is Un-Indian and must be rejected. This view shared by only a minority of people.

Well I can understand the hatred thing.... remeber the reason for founding RSS??? Hindutva is nothing but Anti-Muslim. If you remove anti-Muslim from Hindutva it will die its own death. So its based on hatred.

The second version, which is more popular, and expressed by prominent thinkers like Naipaul, Advani, and others, is of the view that this is a war of cultures, the Hindu culture versus the Islamic culture.

When did Advani become "prominent thinker??? After shedding enourmous blood in the wake of his rath yatra???

What is Hindu culture, if you define.....than we can continue??? Punjab hindu culture is so different from kerla. TAmil nadu hindu culture is so different from even karnata lingayats. Bengal Hindu culture is different from its neighbour orissa.

To counter this influence of Islam on India, the Hindutva movement is being promoted by many, since Ideology must be countered by Ideology.
If you cannot educate everyone, influence their emotions. Simple. This is the new Hinduism. The Hinduism that converts. By violent means if necessary.

Hindutva, which is hate Muslim ideology, is promoted by brahmins to keep themselves in power and perks of ruling India. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Flintlock]

How do you come to the conclusion??? care to elaborate???

Kashmir, North India, sufism is dying.

Kashmir is now filled with mostly orthodox muslims, the sufi religion has almost vanished due to the radical propaganda.

Well I can understand the hatred thing.... remeber the reason for founding RSS??? Hindutva is nothing but Anti-Muslim. If you remove anti-Muslim from Hindutva it will die its own death. So its based on hatred.

Hindutva is pro-Hindu. Its core value is hindu revival, not anti-islamic hate.

If you want to know about hindutva, you'd be better off reading the publications of the RSS themselves, rather than secular newspapers.

The reason for this is, that secular media is reluctant to appear pro-hindu, and will try to avoid publishing the hindu POV.
On the other hand, Muslims, being a minority, tend to be viewed as vulnerable and are given more leeway in the popular media.

Also, the hindutva movement was inevitable. With the kind of history that India has, people were bound to wake up and smell the coffee at some point of time.

If you look closely, Hindutva is strongest in the North, where foreign invaders have done the most damage.

Hindutva has its roots in the 19th century during the British rule.

Try reading the interviews and essays of V S Naipaul to get a better understanding of what Hindutva is all about.

When did Advani become "prominent thinker??? After shedding enourmous blood in the wake of his rath yatra???

It depends on what your definition of prominent is. He is a prominent thinker among the Hindu-revivalists.

Perhaps not so much for the secularists.

What is Hindu culture, if you define.....than we can continue??? Punjab hindu culture is so different from kerla. TAmil nadu hindu culture is so different from even karnata lingayats. Bengal Hindu culture is different from its neighbour orissa.

Look, Ive written several posts on this very point, and you can check out the "Churches attacked in India" thread to get the answer.

For now, I'll simply ask a counter-question.

what is Islamic culture? Is it Sunni culture? Shia Culture? Arabic culture? Indonesian Culture? malaysian culture? Or Pakistani culture?

How can there be an islamic culture if there is so much difference between them?

Hindutva, which is hate Muslim ideology, is promoted by brahmins to keep themselves in power and perks of ruling India. Nothing more nothing less.

Well, thats a rather narrow way of looking at it. If you think that the hindutva movement is indeed so shallow, then you are fooling yourself.

If you really want to understand hindutva, then you'll have to think beyond petty politics.

 

[abhy]

Stealth is right as far as the apologist nature forced upon Hindus for a millenia is concerned. You don't have to look further than your TV screens even now. Most of our media and elite would rather have us behave like dhimmis than show an iota of spine. People around my area have a comic but piercing observation in this regard. "Hindus have been under the boots of foreigners for a thousand years, and as soon as we gain power, we become pseudo-secularists. We are destined to slavery it seems".

But there is indeed a revival of sorts happening in the Hindu religion. Thats why against insurmountable odds, Modi won Gujarat. I have met countless people who have never ever been to Gujarat, know anything about its politics or even cast a vote in their life say that they will come out and vote for Modi if he tries for central elections. BJP is actually gaining ground again. And this attitude is acutely visible among the younger folks. You will see a true revival in Indian pride when the generation of 70+ year olds clinging on to power currently with their pre-partition apologist mindset die off and the current generation of relatively much more aggressive and proud Indians become the new power brokers.

I always find it extremely funny and ironic that what Pakistanis accuse Hindus of being is the very thing that Hindus lack and urgently need for the revival of their nation. I really wish that some of the accusations showered upon Hindus by our Pakistani friends should actually come true.

 

[EagleEyes]

I hope your wishes come true, because in the very end slave theory will be true.

 

[Titanium]

Kashmir, North India, sufism is dying.

Yes, If that is the measure, Hindus are not like before now majority of Hindus are hate mongers who burn women and children---which we saw in gujrat. Not to mention sadist who cut open the womb of pregnant women.


How is the generalisation!!!

Hindutva is pro-Hindu. Its core value is hindu revival, not anti-islamic hate.

Revival of "Hindu", Which Hindu could you point any refrence of Hindu before say 18 century????

I think you don't know subcontinet history. India was Buddhist country, and before that Jain country.

If you want to know about hindutva, you'd be better off reading the publications of the RSS themselves, rather than secular newspapers.

RSS is about supremacy of Brahminis. Do you know who heads RSS for the last 100 years?? YES ALL bRAHMINS.

Also, the hindutva movement was inevitable. With the kind of history that India has, people were bound to wake up and smell the coffee at some point of time.

Yes the hatred was inevitable, what with Brahmin Girls falling after Muslim Boys.

If you look closely, Hindutva is strongest in the North, where foreign invaders have done the most damage.

Yes I can see UP, Bihar and Bengal.

Hindutva has its roots in the 19th century during the British rule.

I know Sarvarker was raised like dog by British for thair own petty use.

Try reading the interviews and essays of V S Naipaul to get a better understanding of what Hindutva is all about.

You know what, people like Naipaul and NRIs tend to fall more on the prehistory greatness of the India and more jingostic than resident Indians. They have a sense of longing for the nation, that prevent them seeing the big picture.

It depends on what your definition of prominent is. He is a prominent thinker among the Hindu-revivalists.

Yes, Hitler was too--- ANYONE WHO SPILL ENOUGH BLOOD WILL BECOME ONE.

Well, thats a rather narrow way of looking at it. If you think that the hindutva movement is indeed so shallow, then you are fooling yourself.

If you really want to understand hindutva, then you'll have to think beyond petty politics.

Hindutva is the result of petty politics. If you think it is inspired movement, you are living in Fantasy. The whole Hindutva is orchestrated to cover the Brahmins from Mandal fallout. Divergent tactics of Brahmins.

There is joke going around:

"Stalin's ghost appears to Putin in a dream, and Putin asks for him help running the country. Stalin says, 'Round up and shoot all the democrats, and then paint the inside of the Kremlin blue.' 'Why blue?' Putin asks. 'Ha!' says Stalin. 'I knew you wouldn't ask me about the first part.'"

The same tactic were applied by Brahmin commies after Nandigram Massacre, by raising Naslima issue, through thair Muslim agents. Sadly, all were busy providing Taslima security, no one asked about the massacre.

 

[abhy]

I hope your wishes come true, because in the very end slave theory will be true.

And you are supposed to be a moderator of this board ? appalling standards.

 

[Flintlock]

I hope your wishes come true, because in the very end slave theory will be true.

Which slave theory?

 

[Flintlock]

Yes, If that is the measure, Hindus are not like before now majority of Hindus are hate mongers who burn women and children---which we saw in gujrat. Not to mention sadist who cut open the womb of pregnant women.


How is the generalisation!!!

Yes, I know its anecdotal evidence.

But its true, Kashmiris have got more orthodox in recent times.

Look, there is no need to get emotional.

Kashmir valley is a small place, generalizations can be applied there with much more ease than over the whole of india.

Revival of "Hindu", Which Hindu could you point any refrence of Hindu before say 18 century????

I think you don't know subcontinet history. India was Buddhist country, and before that Jain country.

Er..sorry but I think its you who needs to brush up on history...

RSS is about supremacy of Brahminis. Do you know who heads RSS for the last 100 years?? YES ALL bRAHMINS.

Did you know that the USA is a male and white supremacist country? All its presidents till date have been male and white.

Yes the hatred was inevitable, what with Brahmin Girls falling after Muslim Boys.

?? Please...why don't you check out the thread that discusses inter-religion marriage from the muslim view?

I know Sarvarker was raised like dog by British for thair own petty use.

I"m glad that your knowledge is so deep.

You know what, people like Naipaul and NRIs tend to fall more on the prehistory greatness of the India and more jingostic than resident Indians. They have a sense of longing for the nation, that prevent them seeing the big picture.

On the contrary, its their being outsiders that enables them to see the big picture.

They have studied the rise and fall of civilizations, and they know what they are talking about.

Yes, Hitler was too--- ANYONE WHO SPILL ENOUGH BLOOD WILL BECOME ONE.

Yes, Advani kills a muslim for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Just wait for the next big news story showing muslim concentration camps...

Hindutva is the result of petty politics. If you think it is inspired movement, you are living in Fantasy. The whole Hindutva is orchestrated to cover the Brahmins from Mandal fallout. Divergent tactics of Brahmins.

Yes, the vile pagan brahmins....they are like cockroaches...

The same tactic were applied by Brahmin commies after Nandigram Massacre, by raising Naslima issue, through thair Muslim agents. Sadly, all were busy providing Taslima security, no one asked about the massacre.

Sorry, but apart from history, you also need to brush up on your current affairs.

 

[Titanium]

Yes, I know its anecdotal evidence.

But its true, Kashmiris have got more orthodox in recent times.

What is your source for that..........Is it just you assume it, like Hindutva?

Kashmir valley is a small place, generalizations can be applied there with much more ease than over the whole of india.

Yes Gujrat is not Big either. All Gujratis are Blood thirsty vampires, who burned alive former MP Ahsan Jaffri with 19 of his relatives. Better still Gujratis have elected not once but three times the leaders of these blood sucking monsters. What do you make out of Gujratis now????

Er..sorry but I think its you who needs to brush up on history...

Ohh my, you denying that India was Buddhist???? Right from Afghanistan to Bangladesh, Kashmir-down to Tirchy it was Buddhist during Ashoka period. Before that it was mostly Jain.

 

[Flintlock]

What is your source for that..........Is it just you assume it, like Hindutva?

yes, just like hindutva.

Yes Gujrat is not Big either. All Gujratis are Blood thirsty vampires, who burned alive former MP Ahsan Jaffri with 19 of his relatives. Better still Gujratis have elected not once but three times the leaders of these blood sucking monsters. What do you make out of Gujratis now????

Right. Gujaratis are Nazis...each and every one of them. Happy?

Ohh my, you denying that India was Buddhist???? Right from Afghanistan to Bangladesh, Kashmir-down to Tirchy it was Buddhist during Ashoka period. Before that it was mostly Jain.

[/QUOTE]

Er...I don't remember denying that.

Again, please brush up on your history.

 

[Titanium]

Right. Gujaratis are Nazis...each and every one of them. Happy?

It is not the question of being Happy. What Gujratis have done themselves......is hard to fathom. Have you watched Australia celebrating Sydney test?? Ponting being self-righteous? But do you think he knows what he has done for himself and the Australian cricket??


It is same story.

Er...I don't remember denying that.

Again, please brush up on your history.

Provide any history of before after this period, mentioning Hindu, Hindutva or any of its derivative mentioned.