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Hindutva: Analyzing the Ideology

No stealth , we hindus never see pride in materialism .. and buildings .. we always existed in Philosophy and Ideas . thats why I said Naipaul is weternized Brahmin .. and Hindutva is the modern materialistic side of Hinduism .. where pride is out side world .. read Advaita and Shamkya to understand Hindu Mind

Oh philosophy and ideas are fine, but won't a normal human being feel pained when he sees his local temple in a state of ruin and neglect?

Why did the Hindus build grand temples in the first place if they had no pride in material achievements?

Why do the gopurams of the temples of south India rise hundreds of feet up in the sky if the real world didn't matter?

Hinduism definitely encourages material achievement. Don't you know about the different yogas? Karmayog, Jnanayog etc.?
 
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the only civilization which survived more then 500 years of Muslim rule is Hinduism and i don't think we ever had this sense of inferiority ..
Hindutva is all about changing with time .. Pride was always there .

Pride was always there, but it was a pride with an real and severe inferiority complex behind it, almost to the hospitalizable extent.

A thousand years of being under the domination of others will have some psycological effects, do not forget that. There have been attempts at revival in various stages like the vijayanagara or the marathas, but for the most part it was a story of subjugated co-option by the hindus. See the rajputs, they were always there but always under the delhi emperor. Even the marathas, they destroyed the mughals and the mughal emperor was nothing but a mayor of delhi, but the marathas were not ready to say that they were the emperor of india, they even then left the title to the mughals, ever wondered why?

Even today you have the effects. Ever wondered why India is the country with the least ratio of small arms to population? It was actually a punishment imposed by the british after the 1857 revolution!!! and only the so-called "marital-tribes" which at that time coopted with the british were allowed to weild arms. Analyze the statement of manmohan singh that the british rule was benificial to india, in this light. Even today our textbooks talk more about the almost never done sati than bhakti movement.

[tamil] Was Sati of Suttee ever practiced in South India - (i.e.) Modern
Now what was the figure of number of sati in the whole of india for an year? around 500, imagine 500 in the whole population of india less than probably the car accident deaths in a single state today and definitely less than the witch killings of christianity and yet we talk as though sati was about to kill all the women in the country and we should thank the british for stopping it. Whenever some westener talks about it, we feel soooooooo apologetic about it and whenever he talks about hinduism it is almost always one of the first point being made. Understand our textbooks, how they are at the verge of being apolegetic for us being hindu. Just see how our foreign policy is almost always geared towards how others will feel and how our policy is for the world good and so on, our severe sense of sovereignity. Which other country uses this word in almost every dealing with other countries?

The hindutva movement of today is the anti-response to this inferiority complex.
 
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No , Hinduism is all about "SELF" and not about what the other person believes it . its is and was always the struggle of wisdom . if you see the Hindu philosophy , there has been many ideas from Atheistic philosophy Like Samkhya Philosophy and buddhiistic philosophy to Advaita and Vishishtha Advaita or qualified monism of Ramanuja.
but yes , Abrahamic religions have bought something , which Hindus never though existed - use of Political power to force an ideology on society . Hindus are still struggling to understand how to counter this .

Logic, Religion was always used for political purposes. Have you read Arthashashtra by Kautilya? It explains exactly how to use religion for political gains.

The point is, no one was able to create a unified Hinduism because hinduism inherently defies unification. It doesn't have the tools to force an ideology over a such a huge landmass/population.

Islam definitely had the tools to do so.
But that doesn't mean that hindu kings were innocent lambs unaware of the power of religious conversions. They used to convert, just not the same way or with the same fervour as the Abrahamic faiths.

The fact is, that the structure of hinduism doesn't sustain proselytism. Its holy texts don't have the single minded coherence needed to force one particular view on a bunch of people. There are too many of them, they all contradict one another, and often even themselves. There is too much question asking and too little answer giving. There are multiple answers to most questions and no answers to some of them.

Simply put, Hinduism isn't one of those religion which has the answers to everything. the Upanishads ask more questions than answer, they force us to analyze rather than accept the text as the ultimate truth.

This makes Hinduism a very personal religion, and people tend to stick to their ideas without really giving a damn what others think.

Of course, I am not criticizing Hinduism. This is exactly how a religion/ideology ought to be.

A man who claims to have the answers to everything is either a liar or he is stupid.
 
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That may have been the idea originally, but if Stealths post is to be believed, then that sense of "ones own truth" is already under assault in a bid to counter Abrahamic proselytizing.
The most important reason why today RSS is the strongest not in rural or urban india, but in tribal india. The tribal india is the arena of conflict to be more specific the christian missionaries and the hindutva.

Islam as of today is not a danger with respect to proselytizing. The real danger is that it is lacking the wisdom to acknowledge this movement. It is being blind sighted by the pseudo-secularists. It is thinking on the one hand that it will go away if they close their eyes, it will go away and at the same time preparing no plans for the future. In the midst of this, in the intellectual space of itself and others, it is trying to define hindutva as anti-islam, which will actually bring more grief in the long run. Hindutva as of today is a rising movement and the pseuds are drawing the battle lines and deflect the entire thrust of hindutva on islam instead of understanding it.

Unfortunately the rigid interpretations of islam now a days in vogue are not helping matters, which the bhakti movement people like kabir and others achieved.
 
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■ A Million Mutinies

Author: V.S. Naipaul
Publication: India Today
Date: August 18, 1997

I think that it would be wrong to ask whether 50 years of India's Independence are an achievement or a failure. It would be better to see things as evolving. It's not an either-or question. My idea of the history of India is slightly contrary to the Indian idea. India is a country that, in the north, outside Rajasthan, was ravaged, and intellectually destroyed to a large extent, by the invasions that began in about 1000 A.D. by forces and religions that India had no means of understanding.

The invasions are in all the school books. But I don't think people understand that every invasion, every war, every campaign, was accompanied by slaughter, a slaughter always of the most talented people in the country. So these wars, apart from everything else, led to a tremendous intellectual depiction of the country. I think that in the British period, and in the 50 years after the British period, there has been a kind of recruitment or recovery, a very slow revival of energy and intellect. This isn't an idea that goes with the vision of the grandeur of old India and all that sort of rubbish. That idea is a great simplification, and it occurs because it is intellectually, philosophically and emotionally easier for Indians to manage.

What they cannot manage, and what they have not yet come to terms with, is that ravaging of all the north of India by various conquerors. That was ruin not by an act of nature, but by the hand of man. It is so painful that few Indians have begun to deal with it. It's much easier to deal with British imperialism. That is a familiar topic, in India and Britain. What is much less familiar is the ravaging of India before the British. What happened from 1 000 A.D. on, really, is such a wound that it is almost impossible to face. Certain wounds are so bad that they can't be written about. You deal with that kind of pain by hiding from it. You retreat from reality. I wrote a book about that, and people thought I meant that India hasn't really a civilization, or India can't go ahead. What I was saying is that you cannot deal with a wound so big. I do not think, for example, that people like the Incas of Peru or the native people of Mexico have ever got over their defeat by the Spaniards. In both places, the head was cut off. I think the pre-British ravaging of India was as bad as that. Muslims shouldn't be too sensitive about this. Because in the Islamic world, a similar vandalization occurred with the Mongols. Muslims all over still grieve about that.

In the place of knowledge of history, you have various fantasies about the village republic and the old glory. There is one big fantasy that Indians have always found solace in: about India having the capacity for absorbing its conquerors. This is not so. India was laid low by its conquerors. There's an extraordinary work by the young Gandhi-his 1909 book, Hind Swaraj, about the need for Indian independence-where he says that what is really wrong with India is modern civilization: doctors, lawyers, railways (spreading famine and vice). His arguments are quite absurd. Rome has fallen, Greece has fallen, every other culture has fallen, but old India
has survived. It is immovable and glorious. Now Gandhi is writing this at one of the blacker moments in India's history and one of the blacker moments in his personal life. He has seen South Africa and the abject, unprotected condition of Indians there. Out of that despair, and out of his own lack of education, all he can manage intellectually is that rejection of modern civilization, which is a rejection of the tools of self-defence. It is the deepest kind of despair. That's my starting point in understanding Indian history. And so, I feel the past 150 years have been years of every kind of growth. I see the British period and what has continued after that as one period. In that time, there has been a very slow intellectual recruitment. I think every Indian should make the pilgrimage to the site of the capital of the Vijaynagar empire, just to see what the invasion of India led to. They will see a totally destroyed town. Religious wars are like that. People who see that might understand what the centuries of plunder and slaughter meant. War isn't a game. When you lost that kind of war, your towns were destroyed, the people who built the towns were destroyed, you are left with a headless population. That's where modern India starts from.

The Vijaynagar capital was destroyed in 1565. It is only now that the surrounding region has begun to revive.

A great chance has been given to India to start up again, and I feel it has started up again. The questions about whether 50 years of India since Independence have been a failure or an achievement are not the questions to
ask. In fact, I think India is developing quite marvellously. People thought-even Mr Nehru thought-that development and new institutions in a place like Bihar, for instance, would immediately lead to beauty. But it doesn't happen like that. When a country as ravaged as India, with all its layers of cruelty, when that kind of country begins to extend justice to people lower down, it's a very messy business. It's not beautiful, it's extremely messy. And that's what you have now, all these small politicians with small reputations and small parties. But this is part of growth, this is part of development. You must remember that these people, and the people they represent. have never had rights before. So in India at the moment you have a million mutinies-every man is a mutiny on his own-and 1 find that entirely creative. It's difficult to manage, gets very messy, but it is the only way forward. You can't get people from Bihar suddenly behaving very beautifully. When the oppressed have the power to assert themselves, they will behave badly. it will need a couple of generations of security, and knowledge of institutions. and the knowledge that you can trust institutions-it will take at least a couple of generations before people in that situation begin to behave well.

People in India have only known tyranny. The very idea of liberty is a new idea. Particularly pathetic is the harking back to the Mughals as a time of glory. In fact, the Mughals were tyrants, every one of them. They were foreign tyrants. And they were proud of being foreign. There's a story that anybody could run and pull a bell and the emperor would appear at his window and give justice. The child's idea of history. The slave's idea of the ruler's mercy. When the people at the bottom discover that they hold justice in their own hands, the earth moves a little. You have to expect these earth movements in India. It will be like this for a hundred years. But it is the only way. In a country like India, I don't want people at the bottom to ever lose their say in their government, to ever lose representation. That is a calamity that must be avoided at all costs. It's painful and messy and primitive and petty, but it's better that it should begin. It has to begin. If we were to rule people according to what we think fit, that takes us back to the past when people had no voices. Old caste or clan boundaries can't disappear. They are people's support system and I think they will be with us for a long time. What is happening, of course, is that within those boundaries people are beginning to have a greater sense of themselves. Some people may feel unhappy at what they see as a breakdown of old reverences. but they have to understand that this is part of an intellectual movement forward. I don't believe in revolution. it's a bogus and cruel idea. Things don't change overnight. They move very slowly, they move over generations. And with self-awareness, all else follows. People begin to make new demands on their leaders, their fellows, on themselves. They ask for more in everything. They have a higher idea of human possibilities. They are not content with what they did before or what their fathers did before. They want to move. That is marvelous. That is as it should be.

>From India's point of view, the Partition was extremely fortunate. The religious question would otherwise have paralysed and consumed the state. By cruel irony, this is what it's done across the border in Pakistan. In
India, there's the emphasis on human possibility. In Pakistan, there's only a constant regression to greater and greater fundamentalism-it's quite extraordinary and shameful that Pakistan, 50 years after independence, could have created something like the Taliban. There's no future in the doctrine that perfection in religion leads to perfection in men. That is the great difference between India and Pakistan. The Iqbal idea that religion wasn't a matter of conscience, that it needed a separate community and society, was a wicked and rather foolish idea, and in the end it went against the polity he thought he was creating. There are very talented people in Pakistan. Unfortunately, they don't have much of a chance. The religious state is not built around the idea of individual talent. So it remains half a serf state, and there is little chance of .change. A country's wealth is its people, but instead of drawing out strengths of the people, instead of drawing out their talent, this use of religion debases, degrades and depresses them more and more.

People ask me about the forces of Hindutva in India. I got into trouble a couple of years ago when I said that with this new kind of self-awareness in India, the Hindu idea is almost a necessary early, stage. It contains the beginnings of larger, new ideas: the idea of history, the idea of the human family, of India. I hope this self-awareness doesn't stay there, and I don't think it will, but it's necessary. We are dealing with a country that has started from a very low point, a very low intellectual point, a low economic point. When people start moving, the first loyalty, the first identity, is always a rather small one. They can't immediately become other things. I think that within every kind of disorder now in India there is a larger positive movement. But the future will be fairly chaotic. Politics will have to be at the level of the people now. People like Nehru were colonial-style politicians. They were to a large extent created and protected by the colonial order. They did not begin with the people.

Politicians now have to begin with the people. They cannot be too far above the level of the people. They are very much part of the people. The Nehrus of the world have to give way now to the men of the people. It is important, in this apparent mess, for two things not to be interfered with. One is economic growth. I would like to see that encouraged in every way. It is the most important news coming out of India, more important than the politics. I would like to see education extended and extended. If this were to happen, and I feel it might, gradually, the actual level of politics will reflect both the economic life and higher level of education.

There's been great movement since 1962, when I first went to India. It's not only the level of public debate, of intellectual life. You look at the newspapers from those days, they are reports of speeches, there is not much
news, nothing like investigations going on. In a way India didn't exist for the Indian papers at that time. There would be various items sent in by the local correspondent, saying that a woman had thrown her children in a well and then jumped in herself, that would come as a line from the correspondent from Faizabad or wherever. But they wouldn't send someone to investigate what would make someone do that. They had no idea that could be done. So you get an idea of the great intellectual change that has taken place. And that goes with the economic change. That's why I think the two must go side by side. There was no economic life really worth talking about. People blame Nehru for his slightly socialist attitude to enterprise. But I don't think India in the 1950s had the talent to resist international business. It would have been dreadfully exploited. I think the old stringencies caused a lot of pain, but it's much better that change is happening now. Every year that passes, makes the country more able to cope 'with international business. In 1962, the number of talented people, equipped people, would have really been quite small compared to what you have now.

It is important that self-criticism does not stop. The mind has to work, the mind has to be active, there has to be an exercise of the mind. I think it's almost a definition of a living country that it looks at itself, analyses itself at all times. Only countries that have ceased to live can say it's all wonderful.

In India the talent is prodigious, really, and it increases year by year. And in sheer numbers, in another 10 years, India will probably be one of the world's most intellectually gifted countries. The quality and the numbers are extraordinary, and I think this makes India extraordinary. But India shouldn't have fantasies about the past. The past is painful, but it should be faced. We should make ourselves see how far these old invasions and wars had beaten India down and how far we have come. I would say that India in the 18th century was pretty nearly a dead country. India has life now. India is living.

(1997 VS. NAIPAUL. (This exclusive essay evolved from a conversation With INDIA TODAY.)
 
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Originally Posted by Stealth Assassin
Oh philosophy and ideas are fine, but won't a normal human being feel pained when he sees his local temple in a state of ruin and neglect?
Why did the Hindus build grand temples in the first place if they had no pride in material achievements?
Why do the gopurams of the temples of south India rise hundreds of feet up in the sky if the real world didn't matter?

Stealth , Hinduism always existed in two diffrent universe . The pure Philosophy existed and flourised with sages who lived away from society and they were initially opposed to taking this religion to masses as they thought that masses , dont have time or inclination towards intellectual and spiritual development .
Temples were used as a place , where art and dance could flourish under the umbrella of spiritual guidance and thats why each society invested its economic resources in temples . This is the reason those grand temples were attacked by invaders and they didnt survive and exist anymore in India . but was Hinduism defeated with demolitions of those building ?
no because hinduism never believed in materialistic existence that is its inherent strength

Hinduism definitely encourages material achievement. Don't you know about the different yogas? Karmayog, Jnanayog etc.?

These different Yogas is also an Idea or part of Philosophy ..
 
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Logic, Religion was always used for political purposes. Have you read Arthashashtra by Kautilya? It explains exactly how to use religion for political gains.

Arthshastra by kautilya is not a religious book . its a book about politics

The point is, no one was able to create a unified Hinduism because hinduism inherently defies unification. It doesn't have the tools to force an ideology over a such a huge landmass/population.

Islam definitely had the tools to do so.
But that doesn't mean that hindu kings were innocent lambs unaware of the power of religious conversions. They used to convert, just not the same way or with the same fervour as the Abrahamic faiths.

Show me one example

he fact is, that the structure of hinduism doesn't sustain proselytism. Its holy texts don't have the single minded coherence needed to force one particular view on a bunch of people. There are too many of them, they all contradict one another, and often even themselves. There is too much question asking and too little answer giving. There are multiple answers to most questions and no answers to some of them.

is this your perception? I think you need to study the various school of hindu philosophy to undertsand it better . they dont contradict each other , but they compliment each other they give you different options , because the underlying motto is that " there is one truth and many paths to achive it "
 
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Stealth , Hinduism always existed in two diffrent universe . The pure Philosophy existed and flourised with sages who lived away from society and they were initially opposed to taking this religion to masses as they thought that masses , dont have time or inclination towards intellectual and spiritual development .
Let me just say, pure BS and bile.
Read the upanishads and then say it. They are all question and answer sessions. You have read them to actually say it. The simplification of the vedas to upanishads to the gita, then writing the epics and the puranas were all attempts to bring those books to the masses.

All the discussions of upanishads were held not in forests.

Temples were used as a place , where art and dance could flourish under the umbrella of spiritual guidance and thats why each society invested its economic resources in temples . This is the reason those grand temples were attacked by invaders and they didnt survive and exist anymore in India . but was Hinduism defeated with demolitions of those building ?
no because hinduism never believed in materialistic existence that is its inherent strength
Infact hinduism at that time actively urged the materialistic existence. It was only after the islamic invasion, as a reaction to it, became insulated and today has come to the extent that people have started believing that there was no materialistic existence for hinduism
These different Yogas is also an Idea or part of Philosophy ..
Those yogas and various weapon arts were the implementation of the philosophy into the materialistic world.
 
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Arthshastra by kautilya is not a religious book . its a book about politics
Roger Boesche - Kautilya's Arthasastra on War and Diplomacy in Ancient India - Journal of Military History 67:1
Kautilya was the key adviser to the Indian king Chandragupta Maurya (c. 317-293 B.C.E.), who first united the Indian subcontinent in empire. Written about 300 B.C.E., Kautilya's Arthasastra was a science of politics intended to teach a wise king how to govern. In this work, Kautilya offers wide-ranging and truly fascinating discussions on war and diplomacy, including his wish to have his king become a world conqueror, his analysis of which kingdoms are natural allies and which are inevitable enemies, his willingness to make treaties he knew he would break, his doctrine of silent war or a war of assassination against an unsuspecting king, his approval of secret agents who killed enemy leaders and sowed discord among them, his view of women as weapons of war, his use of religion and superstition to bolster his troops and demoralize enemy soldiers, the spread of disinformation, and his humane treatment of conquered soldiers and subjects.
Show me one example
There were some conversions and riots betweens the veera shaivas and vaishnavas down south, but they were of the level of difference between worldwar and border skirmishes, when compared to others.

They were there but the scale was completely different and for the most part only upto the point where it was completely necessary for the kings instead of ruthlessness.

is this your perception? I think you need to study the various school of hindu philosophy to undertsand it better . they dont contradict each other , but they compliment each other they give you different options , because the underlying motto is that " there is one truth and many paths to achive it "
this point i agree
 
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Arthshastra by kautilya is not a religious book . its a book about politics

...and how religion is used to gain political/military power. Try reading a translation of the text. You will find it quite interesting.


is this your perception? I think you need to study the various school of hindu philosophy to undertsand it better . they dont contradict each other , but they compliment each other they give you different options , because the underlying motto is that " there is one truth and many paths to achive it "

Look, it is quite naive to claim that different hindu sects don't contradict one another. They do. The strength of Hinduism lies in its acceptance of the inherent contradictions of the universe, and the acceptance that there is no universal truth.
In this way they complement another.

However, logically, there are massive contradictions among the various sects of hinduism.
 
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Stealth , Hinduism always existed in two diffrent universe . The pure Philosophy existed and flourised with sages who lived away from society and they were initially opposed to taking this religion to masses as they thought that masses , dont have time or inclination towards intellectual and spiritual development .

I'll agree that to some extent, hinduism was always very exclusivist. It never went much beyond the sages and the elite till very late.
However, its all very subjective and depends on what your definition of hinduism is.
Today, even the animists and tribals of the forests are considered hindus. So isn't their idea of religion also a part of hinduism?

However, to say that Hinduism was never concerned with the material world is to deny the obvious facts. Have you heard of the Khujaraho temples? Tantrics? They considered material pleasure as the most sacred practice. Were they not hindus as well?

Temples were used as a place , where art and dance could flourish under the umbrella of spiritual guidance and thats why each society invested its economic resources in temples . This is the reason those grand temples were attacked by invaders and they didnt survive and exist anymore in India . but was Hinduism defeated with demolitions of those building ?
no because hinduism never believed in materialistic existence that is its inherent strength

Hinduism was not defeated, but suffered a very heavy loss. The centers of wealth and culture are essential for any religion to flourish. You cannot have bunch of philosophers preaching to themselves and call it a religion. You need the infrastructure to preserve and propagate the faith.

Temples were attacked by invaders for a variety of reasons, but none of them were love and respect for the hindus, I'm sure you'll agree. Seeing your temple destroyed and your culture denigrated will demoralize everyone, except your favorite ascetic sage of course.
This is why Hinduism withdrew from the material world into the spiritual one, concerning itself only with abstracts and never doing much for the material welfare of its followers. Basically, the islamic invasions had destroyed the preexisting hindu order. There is no denying that.

I'll agree, that hinduism survived because of that particular component of its teachings that value the spiritual world. However, a man cannot live on air. He needs material, physical fulfillment as well in order to lead a complete and productive life.

I can see that you agree with Gandhi's views about how the hindu religion was supposed to be, however, let me be clear that the hinduism which gandhi experienced was not the hinduism that existed before the islamic invasions. It was a complete culture, which praised the accumulation of wealth as much as the attainment of moksha.

These different Yogas is also an Idea or part of Philosophy ..

So these philosophies are simply meant for abstract discussion and never to be implemented in the real world?
 
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...and how religion is used to gain political/military power. Try reading a translation of the text. You will find it quite interesting..

I think you are confused between .
Use of Religion to consolidate the politics
and
Use of Politics to consolidate the religion

I have read Arthshastra and it is about using the various knoweldge(including religion) to consolidate political power . this is different from the ways of Abrahamic religion , which uses Political power to consolidate and force the religious ideology .
As I said Hindutva is the practical side of Hinduism . a way to Use Political power for Ideology . its new and has been evolved as the result of our interaction with Abrahamic religions .

Look, it is quite naive to claim that different hindu sects don't contradict one another. They do. The strength of Hinduism lies in its acceptance of the inherent contradictions of the universe, and the acceptance that there is no universal truth.
In this way they complement another.

However, logically, there are massive contradictions among the various sects of hinduism.

no stealth, they dont contradict ,there underlying truth is same . its just that they differ in choosing the path . and once you study them you will realise that ,finally Advaita Philosophy was an effort to develop an umbrella which can accomodate all the various schools . I can explain that in differnt forum with details about that philosophy .
 
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I think you are confused between .
Use of Religion to consolidate the politics
and
Use of Politics to consolidate the religion

I have read Arthshastra and it is about using the various knoweldge(including religion) to consolidate political power . this is different from the ways of Abrahamic religion , which uses Political power to consolidate and force the religious ideology .
As I said Hindutva is the practical side of Hinduism . a way to Use Political power for Ideology . its new and has been evolved as the result of our interaction with Abrahamic religions .

I am sure that there is no way to clearly prove that all islamic invasions were "Using Politics to consolidate religion".

Invasions are as much about religion as they are about politics. They are about greed, about desire for wealth, and a place in heaven. they are about a sense of superiority that is gained by some, when they kill a thousand "inferiors".
Both the desire for a good life, and the desire for a good afterlife, come from the material desire.

no stealth, they dont contradict ,there underlying truth is same . its just that they differ in choosing the path . and once

Thats exactly what I'm saying...the paths are different...they contradict each other....one path says turn left....another one says turn right....in any other religion, this would lead to chaos, war, and massacre. But not in Hinduism.

you study them you will realise that ,finally Advaita Philosophy was an effort to develop an umbrella which can accomodate all the various schools . I can explain that in differnt forum with details about that philosophy .

Look, lets get this straight. The common man is no philosopher. All he sees is that my god tells me to do this, but this guy claims that his god tells him to do something else. Hence there is a contradiction. So his god must be a false god.
This is quite apparent in Islam, where the Sunni and Shia sects continually fight over the smallest of contradictions.

However, as you said, Advaita philosophy finds a way to reconcile very disparate schools of thought.
 
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I'll agree that to some extent, hinduism was always very exclusivist. It never went much beyond the sages and the elite till very late.
However, its all very subjective and depends on what your definition of hinduism is.
Today, even the animists and tribals of the forests are considered hindus. So isn't their idea of religion also a part of hinduism?

Wish I had the right forum to explain you , that animist and the tribals of the forest are hindus . let me try in few words .
Brahman is the supreme Soul
Ishwar (god) is our individual perception about that brahmin so anyone can find his god in anything . what matters is your devotion .

However, to say that Hinduism was never concerned with the material world is to deny the obvious facts. Have you heard of the Khujaraho temples? Tantrics? They considered material pleasure as the most sacred practice. Were they not hindus as well?
Material world is the secondry . the underlying philosophy is the main factor .I think you shall read the Tantra Philosophy to understand this .
that was the reason why , after destruction of temples and its architectural buildings the religion still flourished and we were able to defeat sword with Idea

Seeing your temple destroyed and your culture denigrated will demoralize everyone, except your favorite ascetic sage of course.
This is why Hinduism withdrew from the material world into the spiritual one, concerning itself only with abstracts and never doing much for the material welfare of its followers. Basically, the islamic invasions had destroyed the preexisting hindu order. There is no denying that.

I'll agree, that hinduism survived because of that particular component of its teachings that value the spiritual world. However, a man cannot live on air. He needs material, physical fulfillment as well in order to lead a complete and productive life.

yes what you expres here is the point where Adiguru also struggled intially and then he devised a way to over come this acceptence of Material world . May be i will explain you in detail some other time

can see that you agree with Gandhi's views about how the hindu religion was supposed to be, however, let me be clear that the hinduism which gandhi experienced was not the hinduism that existed before the islamic invasions. It was a complete culture, which praised the accumulation of wealth as much as the attainment of moksha.

Gandhi was not a Thinker (as per Naipaul himself) Naipual have a disliking for Gandhism . you are wrong when u say that hinduism is not the same as what it was before islamic invasion , just because its temples have been demolished . all the philosophy and the ideas are intact in case you want to read them they are still there in all their glory .
and I never said that Hindusim was against materialism , infact it is the only religion which tells how to relish carnal pleasure . but as Geeta Said never get overwhelmed by this out side world . This outside world is Dream . relish it but try to realise that this is illusion .
Hope you get the point
 
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