What's new

Hindu sites 'only for Hinduism'

Govt is trying to bridge that divide and it will bridge gap. ok? At least India Identifies and rectifying this and we are not running away and hiding it . It are facing it and solving it.

The government is not to blame nor can she do snough to uplift dalits from their misery, its your society that needs to change. To prove my point here's a report of a dalit child who was beaten to death by his teacher (educated person). His crime: a poem to a girl of a higher cast. :tsk:

An 11-year-old boy has been beaten to death by his headmaster in the Indian state of Bihar – the third child to be beaten to death by a teacher in India this year.

Gyan Ranjan, who had been a pupil at Holy Mission Children's Academy in Rajepur for just over a month, died last Friday after he was punished for answering back to one of his teachers.

The school initially tried to cover up the murder and claimed Gyan had committed suicide. However, local villagers became suspicious and alerted the boy's family.

Police begun a murder investigation following a complaint from the boy's father, and the headteacher, Uday Kumar Sharan, along with two other teachers, has since gone into hiding.

Many children's rights campaigners believe reported deaths are merely 'the tip of the iceberg' and that severe physical abuse is endemic in Indian schools.

In January, a 15-year-old Delhi girl, Rinki Kaushik, was beaten with a stick by a teacher for refusing to take extra tuition. She sustained serious head injuries and never regained consciousness. She died in hospital three months later.

In July, a 16-year-old Dalit (low caste) boy, Surjit Singh, died after he was thrashed by an upper caste teacher in a school in the mountain state of Himachal Pradesh. His 'crime' had been to write a poem for an upper caste girl. According to a classmate who witnessed the attack, he was caned until "he almost dropped dead". He died later in hospital.

According to a study by the Ministry of Women and Child Development last year, two out of every three students in India suffer physical abuse at school. In Bihar the rate is above average and in some states corporal punishment rates reach 90 percent.

"Most cases simply never come to light," says Bhuwan Ribhu of the organisation Bachpan Bachao Andolan (Save the Childhood). "But when they do come to light, the culprits must be made an example of and dealt with very severely."

School deaths continue despite a Delhi Supreme Court order in 2000 banning corporal punishment in schools. The problem, says Mr Ribhu, is no-one abides by the guidelines. Most children, especially those from poor families, do not realise they have any rights, he says, and often there is no trusted adult to whom they can report abuse. "If children go to their parents, they are not believed. If they go to the Police, they are not taken seriously. Teachers believe and are right to believe, they are above the law."

Teachers in India say they struggle to cope with classes of up to 80 and have to resort to corporal punishment to keep order. "Teachers in these schools treat the children like commodities to be treated as they like," says Mr Ribhu. "They are entrusted with our children. In cases like these, teachers should be severely dealt with to set an example."
 
.
The government is not to blame nor can she do snough to uplift dalits from their misery, its your society that needs to change. To prove my point here's a report of a dalit child who was beaten to death by his teacher (educated person). His crime: a poem to a girl of a higher cast. :tsk:

just a poem? Astagfirullah
 
.
Individual rights and liberties are in the realm of civics. Dharma etc is in the realm of religion and faith of the individual. It is the civic rights of individuals that protects the individuals right to belief. Dharma or otherwise.
 
.
Guys, just cool down.....

There seem to be too much misconceptions about India.

Please, read the following carefully as they are the first hand experienced facts.

1. There is subsidy given by GoI for Haj. There is no such subsidy for Hindu's to go abroad for religious reasons. Would you call India a Muslim country? No.

2. In India, only Muslims are allowed to keep more than one wife. Would you call India a Muslim country? No.

3. Only Sikhs are allowed to bring their 'Kripans' (sort of religious sword) even in areas banned for weapons. Would you call India a Sikh country? No.

4. All the govt offices, machinery, vehicles, project lands are first worshiped in Hindu style before taking them in use. Would you call India a Hindu nation? No.

Secularism does NOT mean having exactly same rules for all the religions. I hope you got the idea.
 
.
As far as the propagation of other than Hindu religions are concerned, the reasons are different.

The ideas of many Hindus, especially in rural areas, are still from 18 th century. As 'bread' was first introduced by Christians (i.e. British) to Hindus, the 'bakery products' were considered as prohibited. When British knew this fact, they just started to throw some breads/biscuits in the wells. Hindus had to abandon that reservoir. Anybody who drank from there by mistake was driven out of religion. Naturally, the only option they had was to accept Cristianity.

Also, it is said that "the doors of Hindu religion only open outwards", because there is not a single example (not even exception) of somebody is forced / pursued / convinced to convert himself into a Hindu.

Not only that, many priests there use simple scientific concepts with the religious symbols (like Swastika, Holy Cross etc) and try to amuse people under the name of God powers and try to convince them to change the religion.

The list does not end here, but I think I should stop. Taking into consideration all the above points, I think the law is in the interest of innocent public.

I think I have explained enough to make you see the things in right light.
 
.
India is a secular country, and pakistan certainly wont suceed in the 1000 cuts policy, they wanted it to be a Hindu nation, cuz it works for them. But sadly for you Indians and the world even the guardians of muslims aka arabs doesnt see it that way.

Please tell me how this impeaching other religion, Hindu's dont do conversion of other religion's by spiritual or monetary ways.When I am praying in my temple, I dont want a priest or mullah coming and telling what i am doing is wrong according to them. They can tell me somewhere else if they want to, but not the place of my god.


ok fine if u dont want mullah then plz follow your own religion books like veda etc they also say do not worship idols..and read purana where mentioned that hazrat muhammad(PBUH) is last prophet...:smitten: :cheers:
 
.
Guys, just cool down.....

There seem to be too much misconceptions about India.

Please, read the following carefully as they are the first hand experienced facts.

1. There is subsidy given by GoI for Haj. There is no such subsidy for Hindu's to go abroad for religious reasons. Would you call India a Muslim country? No.

2. In India, only Muslims are allowed to keep more than one wife. Would you call India a Muslim country? No.




Secularism does NOT mean having exactly same rules for all the religions. I hope you got the idea.


Politics of Haj
Author: M A Siraj
Publication: The Times of India
Date: September 3, 2002

Introduction: Subsidy violates spirit of Islam
Subsidy may be a dirty word in the post-liberalisation era but the government continues to subsidise the air journey for the Haj pilgrimage for nearly 77,000 people who travel to Saudi Arabia every year from nearly 10 destinations in India. The government paid Rs 150 crore to Air-India for ferrying pilgrims for Haj 2002 (concluded in March) towards the subsidy it has been offering ever since sea voyages were replaced by the chartered flights around the end of the '80s.

A substantial section of Indian Muslims, including some MPs, has been opposing the subsidy on Haj. The opposition is on two counts. First, even from the Islamic point of view, state subsidy for Haj is untenable. The Koranic injunction is plain. One should perform Haj if he/she can afford the cost. And affordability includes the cost of the journey by contemporary means of travel. It was on the basis of this assumption that ship voyages were phased out 15 years ago at the behest of Saudi Arabia and air travel became the sole means.

Second, the Haj subsidy is one of the points on the list of myths propagated by the sangh parivar in their hate campaign against Muslims.

And unfortunately it is not a myth, but a sad reality which several Muslims are slowly realising and reluctantly questioning. Why should a secular state subsidise a pilgrimage when no Islamic government does so? There is a third angle too. Haj being a rich man's ritual, the subsidy benefits the wealthy. It has encouraged them to go on the pilgrimage year after year. The Prophet himself performed it just once. A former central Haj committee chairman had once asked why a pilgrim needs a subsidy on the airfare to Jeddah when his baggage on the return journey is twice the weight he carries on the onward flights. That the Haj should become a camouflage for annual shopping trips for the rich Muslim is unacceptable.

A Haj pilgrim travelling from any point in India to Jeddah under the central Haj committee arrangements currently pays only Rs 12,000 towards airfare. This is far less than what one would pay for, say, a two-way air journey between Thiruvananthapuram and New Delhi. That is just one aspect. The dynamics of the Haj are such that flights that take pilgrims to Jeddah have to return empty and again fly empty to Jeddah after 40 days to bring the pilgrims back.

This would not be possible if the Haj were not so highly subsidised by the state. Undeniably, subsidy had a social purpose in the Indian context during the heyday of socialism. But subsidy for the Haj air journey could easily be categorised as fiscal profligacy This burden on the national exchequer is undesirable. A secular state could act as a facilitator for religious duties, can even make it cheaper, but in no way should be seen susbsidising sectarian rituals.

It also adds grist to the propaganda mill of the Hindutva lobby which sees the Haj subsidy as "a tool of minority appeasement" and demands subsidy for the Kailash Mansarovar Yatra to Tibet annually organised by the Central government. However unpalatable the language may be, there is some merit in the argument.

However, there exists a case for making Haj cheaper. In countries like Malaysia and Indonesia, the Haj boards mobilise savings from those aspiring to perform Haj. They invest the money in profitable ventures, disburse profits, take zakat out of the annual earnings and divert it for charitable purposes, charter planes, make bulk booking of dwellings and transport at holy sites. The Haj operations by Malaysia's Tabung Haji, which even bagged the Magsaysay award for its exceptional services, need to be studied by the mandarins in the central Haj committee.

The committee being the biggest buyer of air tickets from Air-India could straightaway be granted a 33 per cent discount on fares. (There is a growing opinion that Haj flight operations and the subsidy are indirectly helping to keep the sagging economy of Air-India afloat and the company needs to come clean on this). Besides, the Haj committee could be given free hand in chartering flights and collecting excess baggage from the returning pilgrims. This will enable the central Haj committee to hire the services of international air carriers at much cheaper rates and, in all likelihood, the pilgrims would pay only 60 per cent of what a normal air journey to Jeddah costs.

Going a step further, the committee could also mobilise deposits, buy its own planes and lease them out to the national carrier during the non-Haj season. A proposal to this effect, i.e., to set up a Haj air corporation by some Muslim MPs has been submitted to the government.

The size of the official goodwill Haj delegation could be trimmed and more transparency could be introduced in the whole process in order to improve efficiency at all levels of the Haj administration.

The government would do well to set up a committee of well-meaning citizens in order to find out ways and means to make the Haj a cheaper and more pleasant exercise, remove subsidy and cap a source of competitive communalism.

Politics of Haj

Yes so the Haj subsidry is not even allowed in islam and is done for votes of the LARGEST MINORITY IN INDIA...
 
.
look this has nothing to do with dalits this kind of punishments are common in indian schools, I had been asked to stand 17hrs a day just becuase i wrote a vase shaped instead of flask shaped for some flower in botony class some of my firends were beaten up and made to stand under the sun for hrs and we are not dalits. this is wrong and need to be changed. if it would have been written upper cast no-one would have read it neither you would have posted it.
 
.
Politics of Haj
Author: M A Siraj
Publication: The Times of India
Date: September 3, 2002

Introduction: Subsidy violates spirit of Islam
Subsidy may be a dirty word in the post-liberalisation era but the government continues to subsidise the air journey for the Haj pilgrimage for nearly 77,000 people who travel to Saudi Arabia every year from nearly 10 destinations in India. The government paid Rs 150 crore to Air-India for ferrying pilgrims for Haj 2002 (concluded in March) towards the subsidy it has been offering ever since sea voyages were replaced by the chartered flights around the end of the '80s.

A substantial section of Indian Muslims, including some MPs, has been opposing the subsidy on Haj. The opposition is on two counts. First, even from the Islamic point of view, state subsidy for Haj is untenable. The Koranic injunction is plain. One should perform Haj if he/she can afford the cost. And affordability includes the cost of the journey by contemporary means of travel. It was on the basis of this assumption that ship voyages were phased out 15 years ago at the behest of Saudi Arabia and air travel became the sole means.

Second, the Haj subsidy is one of the points on the list of myths propagated by the sangh parivar in their hate campaign against Muslims.

And unfortunately it is not a myth, but a sad reality which several Muslims are slowly realising and reluctantly questioning. Why should a secular state subsidise a pilgrimage when no Islamic government does so? There is a third angle too. Haj being a rich man's ritual, the subsidy benefits the wealthy. It has encouraged them to go on the pilgrimage year after year. The Prophet himself performed it just once. A former central Haj committee chairman had once asked why a pilgrim needs a subsidy on the airfare to Jeddah when his baggage on the return journey is twice the weight he carries on the onward flights. That the Haj should become a camouflage for annual shopping trips for the rich Muslim is unacceptable.

A Haj pilgrim travelling from any point in India to Jeddah under the central Haj committee arrangements currently pays only Rs 12,000 towards airfare. This is far less than what one would pay for, say, a two-way air journey between Thiruvananthapuram and New Delhi. That is just one aspect. The dynamics of the Haj are such that flights that take pilgrims to Jeddah have to return empty and again fly empty to Jeddah after 40 days to bring the pilgrims back.

This would not be possible if the Haj were not so highly subsidised by the state. Undeniably, subsidy had a social purpose in the Indian context during the heyday of socialism. But subsidy for the Haj air journey could easily be categorised as fiscal profligacy This burden on the national exchequer is undesirable. A secular state could act as a facilitator for religious duties, can even make it cheaper, but in no way should be seen susbsidising sectarian rituals.

It also adds grist to the propaganda mill of the Hindutva lobby which sees the Haj subsidy as "a tool of minority appeasement" and demands subsidy for the Kailash Mansarovar Yatra to Tibet annually organised by the Central government. However unpalatable the language may be, there is some merit in the argument.

However, there exists a case for making Haj cheaper. In countries like Malaysia and Indonesia, the Haj boards mobilise savings from those aspiring to perform Haj. They invest the money in profitable ventures, disburse profits, take zakat out of the annual earnings and divert it for charitable purposes, charter planes, make bulk booking of dwellings and transport at holy sites. The Haj operations by Malaysia's Tabung Haji, which even bagged the Magsaysay award for its exceptional services, need to be studied by the mandarins in the central Haj committee.

The committee being the biggest buyer of air tickets from Air-India could straightaway be granted a 33 per cent discount on fares. (There is a growing opinion that Haj flight operations and the subsidy are indirectly helping to keep the sagging economy of Air-India afloat and the company needs to come clean on this). Besides, the Haj committee could be given free hand in chartering flights and collecting excess baggage from the returning pilgrims. This will enable the central Haj committee to hire the services of international air carriers at much cheaper rates and, in all likelihood, the pilgrims would pay only 60 per cent of what a normal air journey to Jeddah costs.

Going a step further, the committee could also mobilise deposits, buy its own planes and lease them out to the national carrier during the non-Haj season. A proposal to this effect, i.e., to set up a Haj air corporation by some Muslim MPs has been submitted to the government.

The size of the official goodwill Haj delegation could be trimmed and more transparency could be introduced in the whole process in order to improve efficiency at all levels of the Haj administration.

The government would do well to set up a committee of well-meaning citizens in order to find out ways and means to make the Haj a cheaper and more pleasant exercise, remove subsidy and cap a source of competitive communalism.



Yes so the Haj subsidry is not even allowed in islam and is done for votes of the LARGEST MINORITY IN INDIA...
so you got the point the whole point is not religion it is power mongering by devisive politicians religions are not actually different they all preach the same but we some people make the differences to suit their agenda of power.
 
.
Hindu sites 'only for Hinduism'

The government of the southern Indian state of Andhra Pradesh has banned the propagation of other religions in the holy places of Hindus across the state.
The authorities say the move is to ensure that Hindu sentiments in holy places are not offended.

It follows a row over alleged Christian missionary activity around a shrine in the town of Tirumala.

Christian organisations have not reacted, but a Muslim legal expert denounced it as unconstitutional.

The ordinance promulgated by the state Governor, Rameshwar Thakuar, came into effect immediately in Tirumala.

'Vatican for Hindus'

Experts say the move is a major development which will be far reaching.

The ordinance also affects seven areas surrounding Tirumala over an area of more than 10,000 acres affecting 20 Hindu religious places.



It empowers the state government to prohibit the propagation of religion in places of worship or prayer other than the religion traditionally practiced at such places.

In another equally significant move, the state government has accorded special status to the area around Tirumala as a place of religious importance.

The Lord Venkateswhara temple on top of the Tirumala Hills is counted among the richest Hindu temples in the country, visited by 50,000 devotees on a normal day and with an income of millions of dollars a year.

The decision to accord special status to Tirumala and its surrounding hills is being seen as an effort to meet the demands of Hindu organisations that the area become a "Vatican for Hindus".

The ordinance said that there had recently been a number of instances where worship or prayer by non-Hindu religious groups in or near Hindu places of worship hurt sentiments and disturbed the peace and tranquillity of that area.

"While practicing or preaching any religion was a fundamental right of every citizen, propagation of other religion in temple areas could not be allowed," the state Chief Minister YS Rajasekhara Reddy said.

The chief minister said that the order will cover the places of worship of all religions.

Anyone violating the law will be punished with imprisonment or a fine.


right to follow once religion is everyone right
voilating other right is against the law,
temples premises so as churches and mosqes are private property, in private property you dictate terms you dont allow anyone to come in and spoil the sanctity of the temple.
but you may say why government passing the law?? it is because there is a dubious law in India which allows government to take over any temple, church, or mosque but it is usually temples which earn a lot are taken up by the government this is way for politicians to earn their kickbacks( the case against this is in the court).
once government takes up the temple it becomes government job so you allow anyone to work for the government and now we have muslims and christians working in the temples inside temple primisis eating beef and takeing alcohol is prohibited but this is changed.

and people who come to temple are harassed by christian convertion people who take money for converting people just imagine someone comming to you and telling you that you are a sinner and your god is not a god and their god is superior.

so people went on a campgin aginst the law which made all this mess so insted of changing that law they have a new law look politicians dont want to loose their grip.

and last but not least Mr Rajashekar reddy is a christian.

Right to Propagate your religion is your right but right to follow my religion is my right, you cannot violate my right with your right.
you can propagate and preach your religion but you should not preach to me without my permission and this is secularism.
 
.
Hindu sites 'only for Hinduism'

The government of the southern Indian state of Andhra Pradesh has banned the propagation of other religions in the holy places of Hindus across the state.
The authorities say the move is to ensure that Hindu sentiments in holy places are not offended.

It follows a row over alleged Christian missionary activity around a shrine in the town of Tirumala.

Christian organisations have not reacted, but a Muslim legal expert denounced it as unconstitutional.

The ordinance promulgated by the state Governor, Rameshwar Thakuar, came into effect immediately in Tirumala.

'Vatican for Hindus'

Experts say the move is a major development which will be far reaching.

The ordinance also affects seven areas surrounding Tirumala over an area of more than 10,000 acres affecting 20 Hindu religious places.



It empowers the state government to prohibit the propagation of religion in places of worship or prayer other than the religion traditionally practiced at such places.

In another equally significant move, the state government has accorded special status to the area around Tirumala as a place of religious importance.

The Lord Venkateswhara temple on top of the Tirumala Hills is counted among the richest Hindu temples in the country, visited by 50,000 devotees on a normal day and with an income of millions of dollars a year.

The decision to accord special status to Tirumala and its surrounding hills is being seen as an effort to meet the demands of Hindu organisations that the area become a "Vatican for Hindus".

The ordinance said that there had recently been a number of instances where worship or prayer by non-Hindu religious groups in or near Hindu places of worship hurt sentiments and disturbed the peace and tranquillity of that area.

"While practicing or preaching any religion was a fundamental right of every citizen, propagation of other religion in temple areas could not be allowed," the state Chief Minister YS Rajasekhara Reddy said.

The chief minister said that the order will cover the places of worship of all religions.

Anyone violating the law will be punished with imprisonment or a fine.


right to follow once religion is everyone right
voilating other right is against the law,
temples premises so as churches and mosqes are private property, in private property you dictate terms you dont allow anyone to come in and spoil the sanctity of the temple.
but you may say why government passing the law?? it is because there is a dubious law in India which allows government to take over any temple, church, or mosque but it is usually temples which earn a lot are taken up by the government this is way for politicians to earn their kickbacks( the case against this is in the court).
once government takes up the temple it becomes government job so you allow anyone to work for the government and now we have muslims and christians working in the temples inside temple primisis eating beef and takeing alcohol is prohibited but this is changed.

and people who come to temple are harassed by christian convertion people who take money for converting people just imagine someone comming to you and telling you that you are a sinner and your god is not a god and their god is superior.

so people went on a campgin aginst the law which made all this mess so insted of changing that law they have a new law look politicians dont want to loose their grip.

and last but not least Mr Rajashekar reddy is a christian.

Right to Propagate your religion is your right but right to follow my religion is my right, you cannot violate my right with your right.
you can propagate and preach your religion but not without my permission and this is secularism.

right to follow once religion is everyone right
voilating other right is against the law,
temples premises so as churches and mosqes are private property, in private property you dictate terms you dont allow anyone to come in and spoil the sanctity of the temple.
but you may say why government passing the law?? it is because there is a dubious law in India which allows government to take over any temple, church, or mosque but it is usually temples which earn a lot are taken up by the government this is way for politicians to earn their kickbacks( the case against this is in the court).
once government takes up the temple it becomes government job so you allow anyone to work for the government and now we have muslims and christians working in the temples inside temple primisis eating beef and takeing alcohol is prohibited but this is changed.

and people who come to temple are harassed by christian convertion people who take money for converting people just imagine someone comming to you and telling you that you are a sinner and your god is not a god and their god is superior.

so people went on a campgin aginst the law which made all this mess so insted of changing that law they have a new law look politicians dont want to loose their grip.

and last but not least Mr Rajashekar reddy is a christian.

Right to Propagate your religion is your right but right to follow my religion is my right, you cannot violate my right with your right.
you can propagate and preach your religion but I should come to you for it preaching me something against my beliefs without my permission is violating my rights.
 
.
ok fine if u dont want mullah then plz follow your own religion books like veda etc they also say do not worship idols..and read purana where mentioned that hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) is last prophet...:smitten: :cheers:

None of us are religious anyways hinduisam is not a religion in itself the word Hindu comes from the word Sindhu the river sindu and the s in Persian is pronounced as H so the word hindu means means who live in india which actually means present pakisthan, just like the word Indian came from the words Indus vally the Indus river is nothing but Sindhu river in anciant india.

you right Hinduisam is aginst blind faith so called ideol worship, which in reality same as the preachings of Mohammad, In islam Muslim means beliver in god (according to mohummad it changed its meaning now) i am a hindu but i belive in god so I am a muslim Mohummad is aginst ideol worship but in macca you have ideol, look inside the quran ideol worship is blind faith not litrally ideol worship you should not follow anyone blindly, and hinduisam teaches the same, worshipng ideol is not a requirement in hindisam the ideol represents power of god you invoke the gods power into an ideol and all the ideols willnot get the same power like tirumala has the power in it just like your macca. where power of god is invoked.
the stone as such as no bearring we are not worshiping the stone.

My questions I am a believer so I am Muslim I am a Indian so I am hindu, I dont belive in following anything blindly, i belive that there is only one god which you call allah in arabic i call him bhaghvan in hindi, then why should i convert to islam to follow mohummad what difference is it going to make to allah ?

similarities between what hinds follow and islam

Drinking prohibited in islam and hinduisam
sex for recreation is prohibited for hindus and islam(Kamsutra is not a part of hinduisam)
Singing or dancing except infront of god is prohibited in hinduisam and islam, you can sing and danceonly for the god
god is one both in hinduisam and islam
prayer is an important part of religion in hindisam and islam
you need not go to a temple or mosque to pray.
and there is only one god( as said in gita and vedas.)
 
Last edited:
.
I would like to ask my friends who call themselves Hindus and say they follow the religon of hinduism. Where in your holy books (vedas, gita etc) does it say you must call yourselves hindus. The word hindu does not even appear in the vedas nor was it ever used by 'hindu' deities.
I have seen a debate between Dr Zakir Naik and ravi ravi shankar in which ravi shankar openly accepts that the vedas prohibit and refer to as evil any form of idol making or worshipping. Also the wife of shri krishan ate meat and the pandus were ordered to sacrifice animals to please their dead.
The religon refered to in the vedas is "sana tal dharam" or the religon which worships one god. The vedas even state that god does not exist in different forms man or beast ie:- kali, sheranwali, bholle baba etc.
So how did the religon of the vedas which believed in one god, no reincarnation, abhored idolism ended up in what we see today in which their are gods in their thousands.
 
.
1. There is subsidy given by GoI for Haj. There is no such subsidy for Hindu's to go abroad for religious reasons.

The day that Saudi Arabia pays for Hindu Yatri's subsidised travels, then I'm sure Bharat will give the subsidy to Hindus.

A lot of hoopla regardin the Hajj subsidy given to some people, is vented in the media, every hajj season.

Every single journalist on tv. or in the print, cleverly omits the fact that the Saudi Arabian government gives millions to the bharti government every year, some of which is spent on this subsidy.

The obfuscation of some Bharatias knows no bounds.
 
. .

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom