High and mighty: Indian Air Force capabilities

[CardSharp]

Respectfully I'd disagree, not out of some sense that one AF is better than other but rather because the two different situations faced by them. The PLAAF due to the sino-soviet split and the later arm embargo was forced to be a self-reliant AF very early on, this meant by hook or by crook it had to build its own airforce or not have an airforce at all. This was a continuing process from the 50's on down to today. India has always had the option to buy.

I really don't see the two airforce as being on the same trajectory.

Though I agree with the general tone of this post, there are just too many absolutes (all the bold parts above) for it to be correct.

It will not be "absolutely" crippling, especially with indian capabilities today.

I think we are arguing over semantics, but I think the lack of indigenised aircraft production will make the Indian AF more and more combat ineffective in a conflict that requires the replacements.

It will also depend on the type of conflict and the duration too. (how long is "prolonged"?)

Prolonged means any war scenario where attrition forces a turnover of existing fighters (replacing an equal number to the current stock).

How many AFs are "fully" indegenous? IIRC, only the yanks and russians are having that ability, even the chinese have their bottlenecks.

The PLAAF is. If you're talking about the Chinese importing Russian engines yes, but only for the newer high performance aircrafts like the J-11 and J-10. The other older planes have always been fully produced in China. And about a quarter of the J-11 fleet is already running with indigenous engines.

Finally, Indians are indeed taking some solid steps for becoming independent in the aviation sector. MMRCA is supposed to be the last completely foreign aircraft in the IAF. We are getting there, faster with every passing year.

I hope so.

With successful test trials of Kaveri (around 30 flights), one of the last hurdles in realizing the Indian fighter aviation dream is being removed.

As far as I know, the Kaveri has only been tested as one of the engines of a four engine transport plane, never on a fighter.

We are on the same path as PLAAF, though a bit late. The window for PLAAF to exploit this gap in the armour exists for next six years or so; after that it will cease to be a decisive factor.

Why 6 years?

 

[truthseeker2010]

What will happen to Do-228, will they be completely replace by NAL Saras?

 

[serious sam]

wow.f-35.yipee

 

[ganimi kawa]

Respectfully I'd disagree, not out of some sense that one AF is better than other but rather because the two different situations faced by them.

The PLAAF due to the sino-soviet split and the later arm embargo was forced to be a self-reliant AF very early on, this meant by hook or by crook it had to build its own airforce or not have an airforce at all. This was a continuing process from the 50's on down to today. India has always had the option to buy.

Well, we concur on this. I never intended to say that IAF is following the exact trajectory of PLAAF. Geopolitical realities have had a profound impact on the way these two forces and their expansion plans have evolved.

IAF was a happy customer till the fall of soviet union. After that, apart from the Mirages, it has not been a smooth ride and that along with the steep fall in squadron strength and an equally steep rise in equipment costs have forced IAF to go for "home-made".

I really don't see the two airforce as being on the same trajectory.

Their trajectories may very but end destination is same. Both IAF and PLAAF want to be free from any foreign dependency (at least to an extent where it ceases to hamper their op capabilities.)



I think we are arguing over semantics, but I think the lack of indigenised aircraft production will make the Indian AF more and more combat ineffective in a conflict that requires the replacements.


Yes, to an extent it is correct. However, the percentage of components directly exported is falling consistently even for foreign fighters like Su 30 mki.

However, in a war of attrition, this will be a handicap indeed.

Prolonged means any war scenario where attrition forces a turnover of existing fighters (replacing an equal number to the current stock).

That is what I meant, this weakness can only be exploited if the war is "prolonged" (per your defn.) and that is a big if.

The PLAAF is. If you're talking about the Chinese importing Russian engines yes, but only for the newer high performance aircrafts like the J-11 and J-10. The other older planes have always been fully produced in China. And about a quarter of the J-11 fleet is already running with indigenous engines.

That is where China has the edge.They started early changing from licence production to modified designs and then to complete indigenous ones, while we stuck to licence production only. India is trying to bridge this gap by ToT , though how successful we will be remains to be seen.

I hope so.
As far as I know, the Kaveri has only been tested as one of the engines of a four engine transport plane, never on a fighter.
Why 6 years?

I'll answer it in a while (have emerg. duty!) . Please bear with the delay.

 

[CardSharp]

I'll answer it in a while (have emerg. duty!) . Please bear with the delay.

Good luck!

and it looks like we mostly agree. By no means am I saying that a prolonged conflict is likely in this day and age just that an imported fleet of aircrafts will suffer badly in such a circumstance. (example Iran's F-14 fleet)

 

[ganimi kawa]

Good luck!

and it looks like we mostly agree. By no means am I saying that a prolonged conflict is likely in this day and age just that an imported fleet of aircrafts will suffer badly in such a circumstance. (example Iran's F-14 fleet)

Indian sea king helis did face similar problem during the post Pokharan 2 sanctions. With that lessen; some very concrete measures have been take to avoid such situation in the future (like greater indigenous equipment and raising reserve spares stock from two weeks to two months.)

Why 6 years?

Well, six years is an approximation based on the development and production schedules of various crafts in IAF.

It applies to operational as well as attrition sustaining abilities of IAF.

The Problem

IAF now

With respect to PLAAF, IAF is at it's weakest right now.

Operational PoV.

-- squdron strength way lower than the sanctioned 38.5.

-- Legacy crafts like MiG 21 bis and MiG 27 still soldiering on.

-- Mirage 2000 and MiG 29 in dire need of MLU.

-- Air defence assets still have a very high percentage of old soviet systems (Pechora et al)

-- No sufficient experience of NCW and other force multipliers like AWACS.

-- Paucity of long & short range PGMs, no ALCM as of now (kh series excluded)

-- No indegenous AA weapon or anti radiation weapon.

-- No local combat helicopter.

-- Deficient Early warning and Surveillance assets.


Production PoV.

-- Producing any fighter in India depends upon the good will of some country or the other.

-- Same is true for a majority of weapon systems used by IAF.


I'll post the 6 year prediction next.

 

[ganimi kawa]

The Future

Well, if everything works according to the plan (pun not intended!)............


Fighters

1. LCA mk1 production completed. (2014-15)

2. LCA mk2 production begins. (2014 first flight, 2016 production)

3.MiG 29 and Mirage 2000 MLU complete.

4. PAK FA inducted (50 planned).

5. FGFA waiting in the wings.

6. 2-3 squadrons of MMRCA inducted (Assuming the decision in Dec 2011)

7.AMCA first flight. (2016-17)

8.LCH in production. (induction in 2012-2013)



Weapons

1. Astra missile (maybe mk2) as standard BVR AAM for most of the fleet.

2. Indian Short range PGMs (e.g. Sudarshan LGBs) completely replace the foriegn ones.

3. Air launched Brahmos and Nirbhay for the long range precision strike.

4. Anti radiation and loitering munitions developed. (induction doubtful)



NCW and other force multipliers.

1. Total integration of all AF assets into AFNET.

2. Experience gained in NCW and operating AWACS.

3. Phalcon (3+2) and Indian EMB 145 based AEW&C (6) inducted. (2014-2016)

4. Indigenous aerostats with surveillance payloads deployed.

5. Dedicated comms satellite (2012-13), indian data links, next gen airborne ESM, ECM and ECCM systems.



Air defence
Composed of -

1.AKASH- Induction has started, mk2 with ARH seeker will be ready by 2016.

2.SPYDER- Will need Israeli support in wartime.

3. LR/MR SAM- First flight last year.

4.AAD+PAD / AD-1+AD-2 --- Former deployed by 2012.

5. LLQRM- Co-developed with MBDA.






Production PoV

Fighters

1. Su 30 mki--- 100% local production (as early as 2011)

2. LCA mk1 and mk2---- All critical systems indian except the engine.

3. PAK FA and FGFA-- 100% local production.

4. MMRCA-- Last totally foreign aircraft in the IAF.



Weapons

1. Astra AAM, Brahmos, Nirbhay, LGBs, ARMs, all produced locally.



Surveillance

1. Indian AESA, comint, elint and EW packages ready. Basic aircraft will be still foreign.

2. Indian aerostats with indian payloads.


Air defence

All missiles except SPYDER will be produced in India.




Thus the six years (appx.) timeline.


Added later,
The key technologies that I expect India will master are

1. AESA-- L and S band already produced, x band in the making.
GaN high-electron mobility transistor demonstrated last year.

2. Composites and RAM.

3.Engine- Single crystal blades, blisk etc.

4. Seeker technology- For AAM, ASM, SAM.
An active radar seeker, for AD mission, has been developed and tested for acceptance last year.

5. Hypersonics- There are 3 programs running simultaneously (AVATAR, HSTDV and Brahmos 2),all of them progressing well. (I'll see if I can collate some info and create a thread.)

 

[zombieland]

Can you tell me why are you trying to differentiate between PAK FA and FGFA. I believe they are one and same in case for India. The PAK FA t 50 is single seater whereas the Indian design is for the two seater.

Just curious i guess.....

 

[Tumba]

Can you tell me why are you trying to differentiate between PAK FA and FGFA. I believe they are one and same in case for India. The PAK FA t 50 is single seater whereas the Indian design is for the two seater.

Just curious i guess.....

PAK FA wont be integrated with French Avonics and Israeli ECM many indian components plus some composites

India will get first 50 PAK FA ... same as RuAF configuration

in T-50 MKI all foreign components and indian components will be present also the 2 seats ...

later PAK-FA's will be upgraded to same mix with indian and foreign components ...that are present in Pak FA MKI....

i expect deliveries for PAK-FA will start in 2016+ ...

and for PAK-FA MKI .... around 2020 .....

so by 2020 InAF will have around 2 squadrons of PAK FA ...