Helicopter Fleet for the IAF

[Ind4Ever]

is that true that mil 17 can carry same load(tonnage) of weapons an apachi can carry??

mil.17 in kargil war

which anti-amour missile mil-35 is carrying??

Yes but am not sure about anti tank missiles. As IAF just few days ago gave tender for EW suits. But am sure MI17 can fire unguided rocket pods
External Payload: 4,000 kilogram
Max Takeoff Weight: 13,000 kilogram (28,660 pound)
Payload: 4,000 kilogram (8,818 pound)

But new V5 variants are quite capable :

Mi-8TV / MI 17 V5 armed helicopter
The armed variant, designated Mi-8TV, is fitted with 7.62mm built-in machine guns and six external weapons racks with S-5 rockets. The helicopter can also deploy AT-2 Swatter 9M 17P Skorpion anti-tank missiles. The helicopter's weapon sighting system is the PKV collimating sight. Mi-8TV is also capable of laying minefields.

The armed Mi-8TV helicopters are fitted with more powerful TV3-117VMA engines, which give an improved hovering ceiling (3,950m compared to the 1,760m of the Mi-8MT). The maximum slung payload of the armed helicopter is increased to 4,000kg.

A Hot Brick infrared jammer can be fitted, and six ASO-2V flare dispensers are installed: three to the port and three to the starboard side of the fuselage.

is that true that mil 17 can carry same load(tonnage) of weapons an apachi can carry??

mil.17 in kargil war

which anti-amour missile mil-35 is carrying??

May be our Mi17 could fire missiles once it receives EW suit.

As of now I guess only 4 heavy rocket pods

@Abingdonboy does MI17 has any kind of target seeking radar or sensors like AH1Z to fire missiles?

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy does MI17 has any kind of target seeking radar or sensors like AH1Z to fire missiles?

Nope and it doesn't need them as far as the IAF is concerned. Kargil was a very specialised conflict and the need to arm the Mi-17s was out of necessity as the Mi-35s were not prove at such heights. With the LCH having been designed from the outset to fly (and more importantly fight) at such altitudes there is little need for the Mi-17V5s of the IAF to be armed in an actual conflict other than for very specific missions as they arise. It's a nice capability to have but it isn't essential. You don't see Chinooks or Blackhawks of the US army flying with anything more than crew-operated MMGs (sometimes heavier MGs) in conflicts such as Afghanistan because they are almost always escorted by Apaches or Cobras.

 

[killer elite]

@Ind4Ever
the payload of hal rudra and hal LCH seems to similar, also their service celling is similar then why did AAW and AF need LCH?? the rudra can do the same job the LCH can, and in addition to that rudra can also carry troops... what is advantage of LCH can offer to our armed force??

can LCH(LSP) can carry more weapons than LCh prototype?
till now the prototype can only carry 8 HEleni mssiles...
did LCH will be able to carry 16 ATGM in its production model?

 

[Ind4Ever]

Nope and it doesn't need them as far as the IAF is concerned. Kargil was a very specialised conflict and the need to arm the Mi-17s was out of necessity as the Mi-35s were not prove at such heights. With the LCH having been designed from the outset to fly (and more importantly fight) at such altitudes there is little need for the Mi-17V5s of the IAF to be armed in an actual conflict other than for very specific missions as they arise. It's a nice capability to have but it isn't essential. You don't see Chinooks or Blackhawks of the US army flying with anything more than crew-operated MMGs (sometimes heavier MGs) in conflicts such as Afghanistan because they are almost always escorted by Apaches or Cobras.

True but how we use rocket pods and automatic machine guns to target? And more over IAF recently sent request for information with local vendors for full EW suits like air and ground targeting, defence system, missiles tracking, threat perception etc. I think with this upgrade we would be able to fire A2A and A2G missiles too.

Not sure if anyone posted it. Or I will post it's link

@Ind4Ever
the payload of hal rudra and hal LCH seems to similar, also their service celling is similar then why did AAW and AF need LCH?? the rudra can do the same job the LCH can, and in addition to that rudra can also carry troops... what is advantage of LCH can offer to our armed force??

Both has different role. LCH : dedicated attack choppers .. RUDRA is for multiple purpose like troop insertion. And armed to defend itself and if needed can carry out attack mission.

LCH is more agile and powerful...

 

[killer elite]

Both has different role. LCH : dedicated attack choppers .. RUDRA is for multiple purpose like troop insertion. And armed to defend itself and if needed can carry out attack mission.

LCH is more agile and powerful...

LCH carry more payload than rudra??
look at the wings of both rudra and LCh, LCH looks like it is designed to carry more weapon load. but in all of its prototypes LCH and rudra carries similar weapons...
did LCH will be able to carry 16 ATGMs in its production model?? now the weapon capability of the LCH is too little.

 

[GURU DUTT]

LCH carry more payload than rudra??
look at the wings of both rudra and LCh, LCH looks like it is designed to carry more weapon load. but in all of its prototypes LCH and rudra carries similar weapons...
did LCH will be able to carry 16 ATGMs in its production model?? now the weapon capability of the LCH is too little.

there is no reason why LCH cant carry 16 helina's in a single sortie its wings/hard points suggest the same + why would HAL ever disclose its true potential till its necessarry in a combat zone but doing so how much will be its service cieling remains debatable

i hope some indian member sheds some light on this + LCH fourth protoype is not tested as yet and its overall wieght is set to come down drasticalli after the testing equipment is detached from it

 

[mpk1988]

Something i picked up on janes web site few days back...anyone wishes to comment please..

"Let us all caculate for short , 81,1 Mio.USD$ per Helicopter, including spare parts and some AGM-114x weapons ?!Hhmmm , the most modern AH-64D II-III , with Westinghouse APG-78 MMW-Radar , FCS and ARROWHEAD ITADS , but for "Export-States technical US-downgraded, less capable to the US or UK version ", costed actuall about 46 Mio.USD$ !!!A modernized Boeing CH-47F "lame Duck" Chinnok costing actuall 42 Mio USD$ with BAe AN/ALE-47 IRCM system but without any activ modern Northrop Grumman DIRCM , so old Shit too !!!So we come to a Boeing optimistic calculated price of 1,6 Billion USD$ for India !? So 1,4 Billion USD$ for Spare parts, Pilot education and some stupid AGM-114x missiles , we spoke about 1,4 Billion USD$ Dear Madams and Sir's ??? LoL ((( - - - If you calculate like me, the question to Boeing is , poor stupid or completely corrupt Indians, something is wrong ???"

link is given below
India, US, Boeing sign Apache, Chinook deals - IHS Jane's 360



Coordination with whom? airforce and army are suppose to coordinate with one another simultaneously. being said apache and chnook area basically meant for the air support of the ground offensive by an army of a country. if air force has them.....A simple coordination would do...additional procurement for the army would only raise cost of training and aircraft maintenance.

Good find mass. Have to look at the particulars of the deal.
BTW, Your username.. Is it coz you like massive attack (the band) or just a name?

 

[killer elite]

there is no reason why LCH cant carry 16 helina's in a single sortie its wings/hard points suggest the same + why would HAL ever disclose its true potential till its necessarry in a combat zone but doing so how much will be its service cieling remains debatable

i hope some indian member sheds some light on this + LCH fourth protoype is not tested as yet and its overall wieght is set to come down drasticalli after the testing equipment is detached from it

the number of ATGMs LCH can carry won't be secret. may be the service ceiling will be a crossly guarded one.
all the prototype shown till now only carry 8 ATGMs. never saw any model carry 16 missiles...and also the rockets LCH carry are too less.

 

[GURU DUTT]

the number of ATGMs LCH can carry won't be secret. may be the service ceiling will be a crossly guarded one.
all the prototype shown till now only carry 8 ATGMs. never saw any model carry 16 missiles...and also the rockets LCH carry are too less.

exactli my point but with a twist

thing is current LCH in testing is third prototype and still has a very heavy load of internal testing equipment once the final prototype comes owt with further wieght reductions and minus the internal testing equipment the load carrying capacity and flight cieling will go up we might even see a couple of air launched stinger's in addition to 16 ATGMs on LCH with all the bells and whistels like shaffs, flairs and other countermeasures

 

[Abingdonboy]

the payload of hal rudra and hal LCH seems to similar, also their service celling is similar then why did AAW and AF need LCH?? the rudra can do the same job the LCH can, and in addition to that rudra can also carry troops... what is advantage of LCH can offer to our armed force??

LCH will have a higher payload capacity than the Rudra not to mention it will be significantly more manoeuvrable and present a smaller (especially frontal) RCS signature than the Rudra.

True but how we use rocket pods and automatic machine guns to target? And more over IAF recently sent request for information with local vendors for full EW suits like air and ground targeting, defence system, missiles tracking, threat perception etc. I think with this upgrade we would be able to fire A2A and A2G missiles too.

I haven't seen any such RFIs (maybe you could provide the link?) but it seems to me what the IAF is after is an EW/self defence suite (SDS) not a targeting package for their helos. The IAF has no inclination to arm the Mi-17V5s with A2A missiles- perhaps the LCHs are a candidate though (remember the IAF's Apaches are coming with Stingers).

the number of ATGMs LCH can carry won't be secret. may be the service ceiling will be a crossly guarded one.
all the prototype shown till now only carry 8 ATGMs. never saw any model carry 16 missiles...and also the rockets LCH carry are too less.

Come on, what we have seen of the LCH is exactly what HAL/Indian Mil want us to see. The only occasions we have seen the LCH is at official events (Aero India and Iron Fist) and from official PR photos (released by the MoD) so we cannot rule anything out just because we (observers) haven't seen it.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

S 70B, Seak kings replacements and naval LUH.....these birds (prospective) not getting enough love.. We all seeing IAF only.. Need IN helos too.. With Kochi inducted, there is 2 helos to be stationed there .. similarly for other IN vessesl.. We need helos procurement done asap.. Sea kings have served way too much for us.. Without the new replacements, we are compromising our capabilities..

 

[Abingdonboy]

S 70B, Seak kings replacements and naval LUH.....these birds (prospective) not getting enough love

All too true (depressingly)!! Cheats are still in service with no end in sight for the IN (at least the IAF/IA's LUH/RSH drama seems to have been settled) and the most worrying part is the Sea King replacement aka the S-70B that is needed in LARGE numbers YESTERDAY! You have Billion USD destroyers and frigates (not to mention dedicated ASW corvettes) going to sea with empty hangers or 40 year old Sea Kings, that too whilst the sub-surface threat in the IOR is growing rapidly.

The IN, rightly, gets a hell of a lot of praise for its project management skills and foresight but they have completely dropped the ball on the rotary-wing front across the board. Aside from the Ka-31s (were part of the foreign military sales package with the Viky) when is the last time the IN actually bought a new helicopter (second hand UH-3s from the US don't count)? It has to be before I was born!

This is a pathetic state of affairs and the IN doesn't receive enough flak for it. Inducting mammoth warships is all well and good but in this day and age the embarked ASW helo is just as vital as any other system on board and without a cutting edge ASW platform the IN is severely limiting its own capabilities.


The MoD/IN needs to get its act together on this front.

 

[Ind4Ever]

LCH will have a higher payload capacity than the Rudra not to mention it will be significantly more manoeuvrable and present a smaller (especially frontal) RCS signature than the Rudra.


I haven't seen any such RFIs (maybe you could provide the link?) but it seems to me what the IAF is after is an EW/self defence suite (SDS) not a targeting package for their helos. The IAF has no inclination to arm the Mi-17V5s with A2A missiles- perhaps the LCHs are a candidate though (remember the IAF's Apaches are coming with Stingers).


Come on, what we have seen of the LCH is exactly what HAL/Indian Mil want us to see. The only occasions we have seen the LCH is at official events (Aero India and Iron Fist) and from official PR photos (released by the MoD) so we cannot rule anything out just because we (observers) haven't seen it.

ARMING to teeth? India looks for EW suites for Mi-17 helos

The 16 September RfI, which is aimed at private and public sector companies and has a deadline of 15 December, requires the EW suites to comprise radar warning receivers (RWRs), missile approach warning systems (MAWS), and countermeasure dispensing systems (CMDS).

"The integrated EW suite is intended to provide capability of intercepting, identifying, prioritising, and displaying airborne and ground-based threats from radars and missiles to the pilot," the RfI states.

 

[Abingdonboy]

ARMING to teeth? India looks for EW suites for Mi-17 helos

The 16 September RfI, which is aimed at private and public sector companies and has a deadline of 15 December, requires the EW suites to comprise radar warning receivers (RWRs), missile approach warning systems (MAWS), and countermeasure dispensing systems (CMDS).

"The integrated EW suite is intended to provide capability of intercepting, identifying, prioritising, and displaying airborne and ground-based threats from radars and missiles to the pilot," the RfI states.

Exactly what I had said bro, this is not for any offensive purpose but is clearly an RFI to improve the SDS of the relevant helos. No targeting systems are sought.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Exactly what I had said bro, this is not for any offensive purpose but is clearly an RFI to improve the SDS of the relevant helos. No targeting systems are sought.

Hmm but when we can track missiles and ground-based threats why can't we envelop ATGMs A2G missiles and A2A short range?