Has the army learned its lesson?

[SQ8]

That kind of effort took place on the other side too; with humongous efforts to Sanskritize - Hindi; which is an evolved amalgam in the first place. Fortunately people kept their heads on their shoulders and persisted with the use of karkhana rather than yantrashala. Just as they stilll call a man an 'Engineer' rather than a yantrik.

These seem to still exist, and as such only play to the majority communal audience. But the best way to ignore them is to embrace every part of Indian history.. and that starts from the IVC.. to the Tughlaks.. and all the way to the mem sahibs and laad saabs... It is only in that context can this still existant demon of clashing identity narratives be solved forever.

Pakistan could have easily celebrated Sher Shah Suri or Allaudin Khilji for that matter.. the Turks celebrate their conquerors and ensure that the best of the ottoman caliphate is remembered. Yet, the ottomans are celebrated as Turks and not as glorious Muslim warriors.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Why is everything about Mullah, Islam, Jihad with you? Do you not have a life? Or is your life so simply meaningless that you latch onto religion to cover the deep gaping hole in your existence?

Wtf man. He did not abuse Islam, you think he abused it, just like I believe you abuse Islam. I believe you have a special place in Hell, I'm pretty sure you do too, something similar. Such is our religion, so easy to misuse and place the blame on people. Our religion needed more Prophets to keep people like us from dividing into sects.

Easy there... You sound like you are hopping mad at @Zarvan for his uni-dimensional thought process. He does that to people often. But you need to watch your words.

Why would our religion need more prophets? There is guidance for those who seek it. For those who do not, there is nothing. There have been Qarmatians, Druze, Bahai, Qadianis etc... in our history. Each of these entities was centered around a person who claimed prophethood. Each thought there was something missing. If you think there is something missing, feel free to claim prophethood. You would not be a unique case. There have been others and there might yet be others. Each trying to fit faith around their person. It is not that our religion is easy to misuse (others have similar problems), its that people can not handle difference of opinion even within limits. You seem pretty adamant in your outlandish assertion. Does that not hint at potential for misuse, if taken to an extreme? Misuse of religion is based on ambition and motivation and hence it is a personal choice. Think about Zionism, Crusades, etc...

I give credit to Zarvan for being true to his understanding. He is not a hypocrite. He sounds delusional and often I feel anger towards him because others think that he represents a typical practicing and believing Muslim and therefore say absurd things like what you have said above. And yet I respect his devotion to his ideals, as he understands them.

Sectarianism arises for reasons other than what you probably assume. It starts with an idea of a non-negotiable theological position and build religious practices around itself that serve to make it distinct. Again that has something to do with individual choice and many times arises out of rigid ideas based on personality.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Islam is a complete way of life don't need anything else Mr but those dunked secular liberal dumbos they are always busy in their drinking parties and getting drunk and talking shit and only promoting evils in society and being obedient slaves of USA and India that is only purpose of life and also of their supporters Pakistan Army only needs to one thing get rid of Musharraf disastrous policies and talk to our own people and take out drones and stop Nato supply other wise they will only loose support among people they along with political leadership needs to send strong message to USA and NATO


Sir only problem yes it was created on 27th of Ramadan and yes their are signs that it is from ALLAH but we need to implement Islam fully and so called sub continent roots if we had to attach to that than their was no need of getting separated from India that was the reason we separated from India Sir what we need to do is educate people about Islam and also what Iqbal thoughts were and implement laws and stop following USA orders blindly

1. Zarvan, bhai please - logon kay sath narmi ikhtiar karo. Everything is not a matter of life and death, right and wrong, black and white.

2. Liberal dumbos are not always busy chugging Alcohol. Sometimes they say things that need to be thought over. Do not be dismissive like this.

3. Hadith ka mafhoom: 'Watan ki muhabbat Iman mein sey hai'. You can not dismiss geographical context of nationhood. Pakistan is the country of Indus, geographically speaking. No one should need to say anything otherwise. Pakistan exists on the ground, not up in the air. It is no accident that Muslims outnumbered others in this geographical entity. For this fact we need not look to Iqbal or worry about indoctrination. We are here. We are here to stay. That is enough. No need to be insecure and act reactionary.

The problem is not with the concept, or artificiality.. it is that an artificial legend was created around it. Yes, Pakistan was created on 14th August or the 27th of Ramadan(and not a reincarnation of some long lost ancient civilization) and yes I do truly believe it was a gift from god. But the narratives being created in order to give it some fake identity are more damaging to its existence and social fabric rather than acknowledge its sub-continent roots.

There is no fake identity as such. Our identity, our social evolution, our baggage , and our destiny does not point east or west. It rests securely on this land. We accept and exhibit influences around us and that is just natural. If some people like to act as Arabs, let them. If some people emphasize our cultural background from our immediate West, I see nothing wrong with that either. We are part of South Asia, but we are open to multiple influences just by the virtue of being in the most diverse part of South Asia.

There is a consistent and determined effort by some (not you) to point at Arab influence as though it is a disease. That it is not. It is only natural just because of circumstances.

 

[Leader]

Zilch !

 

[Cheetah786]

He won me by this

The maulvis and assorted holy fathers

Simple answer to his question NO pakistan Army has not learn its lessons.

 

[SQ8]

There is a consistent and determined effort by some (not you) to point at Arab influence as though it is a disease. That it is not. It is only natural just because of circumstances.

But there is Arab influence. Islam has Arabic as its means of instruction.. however, that Arab influence is due to Islam and hence there is no harm in accepting it. What is harmful is taking Arab culture into our own. Whether we like to accept it or not we are Muslims of Hindustan. We embody that aspect of culture.. Indonesia is a perfect example of how a society has kept that amalgamation of Islam into their culture.
In our cases, modern Arabic ideals and influence is being shoved down our throats and everything from Thawbs to gutteral Arabic accent is being promoted as key to the righteous path. That is truly objectionable and must be pointed out.

 

[VCheng]

if this same logic of yours is applicable to ayaz ameer then in the same way it is definitely applicable to Zaid Hamid as well ... ?! Isn't it ... !? Or should i say it your "Dam DuaL Standard" ... ?!

So why the hell you people curse Zaid Hamid instead of what he says rather ?!? ...
Think about it ...

Of course. That logic can and should be applied to both sides of an argument to keep it focused on the issues and not the personalities.

What does "you people" mean?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

But there is Arab influence. Islam has Arabic as its means of instruction.. however, that Arab influence is due to Islam and hence there is no harm in accepting it. What is harmful is taking Arab culture into our own. Whether we like to accept it or not we are Muslims of Hindustan. We embody that aspect of culture.. Indonesia is a perfect example of how a society has kept that amalgamation of Islam into their culture.
In our cases, modern Arabic ideals and influence is being shoved down our throats and everything from Thawbs to gutteral Arabic accent is being promoted as key to the righteous path. That is truly objectionable and must be pointed out.

The example of Indonesia that you raised is a perfect example. Indonesian people have to a very great extent managed to retain all the influences that have gone into their culture. Local from the Islands, from India, from China and Arabic. All that happened because of its location as a trading point.
On assignment there; I got to know numerous local families which led to social interactions. Initially it was intriguing to meet an Achmad whose wife was named Megawati or even more unusually a Zainal Abedin whose wife's name was Parwati. So I ended up asking if they were inter-comunally or inter-religiously married. The answer was that both were Muslims. Which in turn led me to remark that the Ladies' names were not Muslim. The answer was very categorical: they were good traditionally Indonesian names !

Of late though, a great deal of Saudi Money is flowing in and people are under great pressure to change to "more Islamic ways". Not all of which are popular.

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

Of course. That logic can and should be applied to both sides of an argument to keep it focused on the issues and not the personalities.

What does "you people" mean?

you people means you people ' what else ?!

 

[VCheng]

you people means you people ' what else ?!

Please enlighten me what you meant:

"you people":
1. Disdainful epithet for citizens and voters, as used by the richest 1%.
2. The "little people" who dare seek accountability, as seen by wealth leaders.

================================

On topic, the Pak Army continues to safeguard its interests with sufficient competence. Others may be trying to teach it a lesson, but it will learn in its own good time and in its own way, if ever.

 

[OrionHunter]

There is meaning to what you say. Even at this stage; the Army (or Security Estt.) can and must "bite the bullet" and work on this serious threat within. The past can (and must) be steadily and progressively broken with; since the past itself is creating the Ghosts that haunt today.
As for the LOC; it is a reality, even for the entire world. Therefore it is the de-facto common Border. Even the Heavens cannot change that in any major fashion.

You see the problem lies in the fact that the Zia doctrine is alive and kicking in the PA. 'Bleeding India with a thousand cuts' is their signature tune especially after the 1971 war. Retribution for the loss is foremost in the psyche of the PA. They need to hurt India to get even. So any attempt at a detente is going to be a non-starter - unless of course there is a paradigm shift in thinking.

The second side of the triangle is the insecurity of the PA. They seem to be paranoid about being enveloped by India in the East, and Afghanistan supported by India in the West and therefore are propping up the Taliban (Haqqani) to take over the helm after American troops withdraw. For this they have been supping with the devil for the past 10 years, playing a game of running with the hare and hunting with the hounds. The Americans know this but are caught in a cleft stick, as without Pakistan the cost of the WOT in Afghanistan would become prohibitive. If the Pakistan Establishment hadn't helped and supported the Taliban all these years, the game would have been over in Afghanistan long ago.

This has resulted in drone attacks that have killed hundreds of terrorists but resulted in collateral damage too which in turn has given birth to the TTP which has been responsible for the massive casualties of Pakistanis - more than 50,000 soldiers and civilians killed and many more wounded. This has also given birth to a number of militant groups, all jostling for space. The Establishment's support to terrorist groups to fight their wars against India by proxy has started getting out of control with splinter groups charting their own course by getting help of groups inimical to Pakistan's interests. This melds into the third side of the triangle which is:

The need of the PA to keep the Indian 'threat' alive, without which the very raison d'etre of the PA would be at stake. Otherwise they would be sidelined and lose their credibility and importance in Pakistan. So they need an enemy to keep up the charade, which needless to say is India.

At the center of this triangle are the vested interests that need to keep Indo-Pak hostilities going and the pot boiling. An example is the JuD that collects millions of rupees from the sheeple based on their anti-India tirades, without which contributions would dry up. They need a reason, which is the 'liberation of Kashmir'. A very convenient motive as this dispute could last for decades resulting in a steady flow of funds well into the future.

So, as you mentioned it's not just the conversion of the LoC that would sort out the Indo-Pak imbroglio. There are wheels within wheels - the malaise is too deep rooted - almost impossible to extricate from.

And needless to say, India must tone down its anti-Pakistan rhetoric.

The road to peace is going to be long and arduous.

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

Please enlighten me what you meant:

"you people":
1. Disdainful epithet for citizens and voters, as used by the richest 1%.
2. The "little people" who dare seek accountability, as seen by wealth leaders.

================================

On topic, the Pak Army continues to safeguard its interests with sufficient competence. Others may be trying to teach it a lesson, but it will learn in its own good time and in its own way, if ever.

i don't really give explainations to people ordinarily on any case whatsoever , but still i'm giving you this favour because you are supposed to be a guest from india on Pakistan Defence forum ; since you seem to be a reasonable person so just for the sake of you getting relaxed on my words (i.e."you people") i tell you that by saying "You people" what i meant was all the people in the world who dislike , hate , malighn , defame & call names to Zaid Hamid ...

 

[SBD-3]

Ayaz just sums up a complete storm in these two lines, There is absolutely no grassroot support to any religious parties anywhere in Pakistan not even in KPK, they thrives only on the tacit support of verious security agencies who use them as cannon fodder since 79. The lame argument that Army looking towards public and found silence at the moment is utter rubbish....its the other way around actually.

If today PA strategically decides to accept LOC as common border, all these demons vanish the next day..............!!!

Then how would you explain JI and JUI sitting in NA and KP assemblies?

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

its about time when someone in Pakistani Army leadership said...Shit we are screwed.

 

[VCheng]

i don't really give explainations to people ordinarily on any case whatsoever , but still i'm giving you this favour because you are supposed to be a guest from india on Pakistan Defence forum ; since you seem to be a reasonable person so just for the sake of you getting relaxed on my words (i.e."you people") i tell you that by saying "You people" what i meant was all the people in the world who dislike , hate , malighn , defame & call names to Zaid Hamid ...

You assume incorrectly. My flags are correct. I do appreciate your clarification.

Mr. Hamid is entitled to air his views just as much as anybody else.