Has democracy really failed in Pakistan?

[saiyan0321]

It is struggling alot. Our culture and system makes democracy very very difficult for us. The motto for the people,by the people and with the people is difficult to implement due to the rural land lords and aristocratic culture we possess. On top of it all we have representative democracy ( a type of democracy where the people elect people to chose leaders for them) whereas i think we need direct democracy ( where the people chose their own leaders). The caliphate system made by Islam was also an early version of direct democracy where the people chose the most pious person.

 

[SBD-3]

THow can you call this democracy when Ahmadis are barred from voting unless they disown their religion?

?????????????
1- Barred from voting? interestingly ignorant
2- I always thought that Ahmadies called themselves muslim, but now you're affirming that they have their own religion.

 

[Pakistani E]

?????????????
1- Barred from voting? interestingly ignorant
2- I always thought that Ahmadies called themselves muslim, but now you're affirming that they have their own religion.

Lol, I really wish people would research a bit more before making assumptions. Ahmadis can only vote as muslims if they sign a form declaring the founder of the ahmadi community as a imposter and a false prophet. And we are also not going to vote as a minority because we ARE muslims. So I suggest you go and read the bit about the voting system for minorities in Pakistan before labelling someone as ignorant, because frankly it does not look well for someone who claims to be learned as you to fall woefully short of knowledge.

Pakistan does have apartheid type laws because it does not allow ahmadis to worship freely, you're brethren in Europe scream about laws banning minerats and burkas for violating personal freedom but you are happy to make laws to label a community as non muslim just because you disagree with their interpretation. Funny thing is when Pakistani tv channels were talking about banning of minerats in Switzerland they kept showing a mosque in zurich, want to know the funny thing? the mosque they were showing was an ahmadi mosque. The hypocrisy is clear for anyone to see.

 

[Sugarcane]

Democracy is not suitable for Pakistan - this is what we have been told few years after independence - and i agree that current form of democracy has failed and will fail because there is no process of improvement and correction. It's like 2 turns of civilian crooks and one long term by military crook and cycle will continue.

 

[Sugarcane]

Lol, I really wish people would research a bit more before making assumptions. Ahmadis can only vote as muslims if they sign a form declaring the founder of the ahmadi community as a imposter and a false prophet. And we are also not going to vote as a minority because we ARE muslims. So I suggest you go and read the bit about the voting system for minorities in Pakistan before labelling someone as ignorant, because frankly it does not look well for someone who claims to be learned as you to fall woefully short of knowledge.

Pakistan does have apartheid type laws because it does not allow ahmadis to worship freely, you're brethren in Europe scream about laws banning minerats and burkas for violating personal freedom but you are happy to make laws to label a community as non muslim just because you disagree with their interpretation. Funny thing is when Pakistani tv channels were talking about banning of minerats in Switzerland they kept showing a mosque in zurich, want to know the funny thing? the mosque they were showing was an ahmadi mosque. The hypocrisy is clear for anyone to see.

I don't know why our leadership counted votes of Ahamadis as Muslim when they were forming Pakistan.

PS: Before that someone jump and declare me Ahamadi for this post i want to clarify that i am fundamentalist and believe on finality of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

 

[SBD-3]

Demo Crazy can never work in Pakistan. Seems like some people haven't seen the fruits of DEMO Crazy in these last 5.5 years.

Pakistan has always develop in Strict Military rule, check Ayub Khan, Musharraf eras etc.

Lol, I really wish people would research a bit more before making assumptions. Ahmadis can only vote as muslims if they sign a form declaring the founder of the ahmadi community as a imposter and a false prophet. And we are also not going to vote as a minority because we ARE muslims. So I suggest you go and read the bit about the voting system for minorities in Pakistan before labelling someone as ignorant, because frankly it does not look well for someone who claims to be learned as you to fall woefully short of knowledge.

The declaration requires muslims to declare that they
1-Believe in Muhammad PBUH being the last prophet
2- Dissociating them from being Ahmadi and Lahori Groups.
Rest is added by yourself. My question was simple and straight, if you believe that you have your separate religion, then on what basis you claim yourselves to be muslims?

Pakistan does have apartheid type laws because it does not allow ahmadis to worship freely, you're brethren in Europe scream about laws banning minerats and burkas for violating personal freedom but you are happy to make laws to label a community as non muslim just because you disagree with their interpretation.

Again my previous question

Funny thing is when Pakistani tv channels were talking about banning of minerats in Switzerland they kept showing a mosque in zurich, want to know the funny thing? the mosque they were showing was an ahmadi mosque. The hypocrisy is clear for anyone to see.

Well what does that prove?

 

[SBD-3]

I don't know why our leadership counted votes of Ahamadis as Muslim when they were forming Pakistan.

PS: Before that someone jump and declare me Ahamadi for this post i want to clarify that i am fundamentalist and believe on finality of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

Rather interestingly, KH Khurshid (Quaid e Azam's personal secretary) in his book makes an interesting disclosure about the first foreign minister Sir.Zafar Ullah Khan. He was interviewing the Mr. Mumtaz Hassan, the first finance secretary of Pakistan about his experience with Jinnah. He notes

In September 1940, the government of India brought in a Supplementary Budget because of the War. Mumtaz Hassan was private secratary to sir Jeremy Raisman, finance member of viceroy's executive counsel, Government of India. Congress Party was opposed to the war policy of the Government but this time, Muslim League Assembly party had decided to remain neutral.This was a disturbing news from the point of view of the government as it was in a minority in the House, as compared to the Congress.A defeat could create a very bad impression abroad, where the British propaganda had led the World to believe that Indian assembly was supporting the war effort.Accordingly efforts were made to win over a few members from the Muslim League Assembly Party. Sir Muhammad Zaffarullah Khan, the law member of the Government of India, was entrusted with the task. Ikramullah, the government whip was also put to the task.
There were some members like Raza Ali, Sir Muhammad Yameen Khan, Dr.Ziauddin, Khan Bahadur Abdul Qadir, Muhammad Shabaan, Mian Ghausuddin and Fazle Haq Piracha from Punjab on whom pressure was brought to bear. Sir Sikandar Hayat in Punjab was asked to persuade Punjabi members to co-operate. While Zafarullah and Ikramullah were active at the center. They advised the members to ask Mr.Jinnah to allow members of the league assembly party, or at least a few individuals to vote as they pleased. The government felt if it could win over a few seats, it could avert defeat on the floor of the House. Accordingly, a certain member of league approach Mr.Jinnah who already knew the government manuvers and was fully prepared for the approach.
Jinnah asked the member, who had approached him for exception,"Was this decision to remain neutral was taken by the party?". "Yes,Sir". "Was the decision unanimous?" Mr.Jinnah countinued."Yes,Sir". "Well" stated Quaid,"I know who have sent you.But if I give you the freedom to vote with the Government, I should like to give the same freedom to others and then I shall myself go across to vote with the Congress.
When this was reported to Zafarullah and others, they immediately realized how dangerous such a move could be. The matter was dropped. The muslim league remained neutral with all its members present in the House.
The Government was defeated by two votes.
(Page 79-80) Memories of Jinnah by KH Khurshid

The book has some other interesting disclosures as well (about which i will write a complete thread when I could spare some time to write). However, this shows that when Quaid said that "Pakistan was made by me, my secratary and his typewriter" He was correct to a greater degree and this just shows that the People like zafarullah and many others were attracted to Muslim league because they could use this power house after the makings of Pakistan.

 

[Solomon2]

This British style of democracy has failed us.

You don't have British-style democracy. Britain has a monarch. While the Queen cannot give commands or make laws, she is not completely powerless: she has the right of unlimited review of the bureaucracy, up to and including the prime minister. She knows every secret she wants to know. She can expose any wrongdoing she finds - though in the "old boy" system dismissal or early retirement is more likely than the mess hitting the newspaper. Since she isn't elected and is independently wealthy she is difficult to corrupt with either money or popularity.
The checks and balances provided by the Queen (as exercised through her governor-generals) is something Pakistan sacrificed when it decided to become a republic rather than a constitutional monarchy. Immediately, corruption of all sorts had a green light: full speed ahead!
The sad reality, however, is that King George VI yielded to Jinnah's blandishments and compliantly appointed prominent Pakistani politicians as governor-generals, men who naturally had little or no interest in neutrally exercising the functions of independent review, as the governor-general of Canada does. (The current Canadian governor-general is a prominent academic, specializing in financial law.)

 

[Chronos]

Democracy hasn't failed Pakistan. Pakistan has failed democracy

 

[Spring Onion]

Other than W.11, who here thinks Arab News is a business run by a "jewish zionist"?

bwahahahaha well you know the man who has written this piece of shit Mumtaz Qureshi made a party with foreign funding and failed to get even ONE vote hence oh yehhhh he has an itch for current democracy

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Well this version of Western Endorsed 'Democracy' is Wrong anyways.

 

[Pakistani E]

I don't know why our leadership counted votes of Ahamadis as Muslim when they were forming Pakistan.

PS: Before that someone jump and declare me Ahamadi for this post i want to clarify that i am fundamentalist and believe on finality of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

Because Jinnah sahib considered us muslims. He prayed Eid Namaz at our mosque in London. The strange thing is, maudidi and his followers were anti Pakistani yet they are the foremost in saying ahmadis are traitors to Pakistan. Oh the irony...

 

[Bang Galore]

PS: Before that someone jump and declare me Ahamadi for this post i want to clarify that i am fundamentalist and believe on finality of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

Your clarification is far more telling than any post.

 

[Pakistani E]

The declaration requires muslims to declare that they
1-Believe in Muhammad PBUH being the last prophet
2- Dissociating them from being Ahmadi and Lahori Groups.
Rest is added by yourself. My question was simple and straight, if you believe that you have your separate religion, then on what basis you claim yourselves to be muslims?


Again my previous question



Well what does that prove?

Go read the declaration, It says to sign the declaration that you consider Mirza Sahib(as) as an imposter and liar.

I don't know if you understand what democracy is, or even what I wrote. I don't want to get in a religious debate because I know too well what happens to any posts that have a hint of being pro ahmadi. So stick to democracy and how it is not working in Pakistan because of what is happening to minorities and especially Ahmadis. It's not a democracy if it passes laws and discriminate against a religious community, banning ahmadi ijtemas and jalsas also isn't very democratic. It is not a democracy if it only allows state sanctioned momins to become presidents etc. ( and we know how pious not non corrupt they are, right.)

Prove to me how Pakistan is a democracy. Debating religion will get me sanctioned like it has done 3 times before, although nothing has happened to those momins who were debating me.

 

[Pakistani E]

Rather interestingly, KH Khurshid (Quaid e Azam's personal secretary) in his book makes an interesting disclosure about the first foreign minister Sir.Zafar Ullah Khan. He was interviewing the Mr. Mumtaz Hassan, the first finance secretary of Pakistan about his experience with Jinnah. He notes

The book has some other interesting disclosures as well (about which i will write a complete thread when I could spare some time to write). However, this shows that when Quaid said that "Pakistan was made by me, my secratary and his typewriter" He was correct to a greater degree and this just shows that the People like zafarullah and many others were attracted to Muslim league because they could use this power house after the makings of Pakistan.

And is it the ahmadis who called it napakistan but now have become custodians of this state? And yes of course Qaid e Azam's secretary single handed drew Pakistan on the map on the directions of Jinnah Sahib. Lol people like Zafrullah was attracted to muslims league because of power? Did you know the man personally to conclude that or you didn't want to leave a comment without some funny remark how ahmadis were in it for power.

I also have books that I can quote, but we are discussing democracy in Pakistan. Not who's typewriter made Pakistan.