Haryana discovery that promises to challenge our ancient history

[Levina]

Brahui people were residing in cut off area and they spoke Dravidian language as their area skipped the Aryan wave. Presence of these kind of pockets actually strengthens AMT.

Similar thing happened with Hinduism in Afghanistan. Nuristan, which was a cut off area was Hindu just 100 years ago. It escaped Islamic conquest because it was cut off from even Afghanistan.

Nuristan Province - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So what was happening down south before AMT happened?
Btw you made it sound like AIT and not AMT. Grr!

 

[anonymus]

So what was happening down south before AMT happened?
Btw you made it sound like AIT and not AMT. Grr!

Material culture of south developed around 500BCE. Before that, South was basically a large tribal area.

It may disturb some Tamil chauvnists a lot, but earliest Tamil Grammar "Tolkappiyam" was written by Rishi Agastya and his disciple Tolkappiyar. Without those Brahmins whom Tamils love to hate, Tamil would have gone extinct a couple of thousand years ago.

 

[Kabira]

Are you denying the fact that Rakhigarhi is the biggest Harappan site ever found???
Btw the presence of Hakra-ware in this site also establishes that the epicenter of Sindu-saraswati civilisation lies in Haryana-Rajasthan region.
Pls dont die of a heart attack now.

I will deny anything that come from India. Soon they will say Rakhigarhi is older then Mehrgarh in Balochistan lol

Brahui people were residing in cut off area and they spoke Dravidian language as Aryan wave skipped their area. Presence of these kind of pockets actually strengthens AMT.

Similar thing happened with Hinduism in Afghanistan. Nuristan, which was a cut off area in Afghanistan, was Hindu even 100 years ago. It escaped Islamic conquest because it was cut off from even Afghanistan.

Nuristan Province - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@SpArK Do visit this thread too. The myth of Prithviraj Raso, and an account of Ghurid invasion.

I forgot to quote you and @SamantK in that thread.

So all this prove that migration was from west to east right? Hindus are invaders in India?

 

[SpArK]

Material culture of south developed around 500BCE. Before that, South was basically a large tribal area.

It may disturb some Tamil chauvnists a lot, but earliest Tamil Grammar "Tolkappiyam" was written by Rishi Agastya and his disciple Tolkappiyar. Without those Brahmins whom Tamils love to hate, Tamil would have gone extinct a couple of thousand years ago.

Is it the same agasthya who has a mountain named near my place in trivandrum?

The trekking towards that mountain is a very adventurous one.

Agastya Mala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some pics

 

[Lord ZeN]

You're right AMT (Aryan migration theory) is accepted but not AIT (Aryan invasion theory). Whatever happened to Dravidans!!!
Can we discuss genetics on pdf??? lol

Both these theories are debunked since the so called "Aryan race" is just a Mythical race. So who the hell is an Aryan ? Is he a White Caucasian from Mediterranean Europe ? Is he a German as Hitler suggested ? Is he a Uzbek ? Was he from Central Asia ? Did he come from Ural mountains or was he an Ukrainian ? The closest people who can be associated with so called Aryan race is Iranians. In-fact the term "Aryans" usually were used in India to refer royalty and are sometimes associated with civilized group of people. But it's a well known fact that so many group of people immigrated/strayed into India. Some came as invaders occasionally subduing whatever local population it had and some came as immigrants looking for a greener pasture. But these so called immigrants/invaders were never a single tribe/race/group of people. But these people came from different regions. In-fact same can be said about another large nation.

 

[My-Analogous]

-Flickr
What do you think our forefathers – the Harappans — looked like? A group of Indian archaeologists who are looking to answer this intriguing question are increasingly assuming that the people of the Indus Valley came from India. This assumption, as any serious archaeologist will tell you, flies in the face of current archaeological evidence.

The discovery of a Harappan site at Rakhigarhi in Haryana, India, by archaeologists of the Deccan College Postgraduate and Research Institute, Pune, has set the Indian academic world alight. This has been classified as a ‘Mature Harappan Period’ find, dating 4,000 to 4,500 years old. The excitement is over the announced discovery of four skeletons, two men, a woman and a child.

Dr Vasant Shinde, vice-chancellor of the college and director of the Rakhigarhi excavation, on Saturday announced and as reported by Indian newspaper: “We want to study the DNA of the Harappan people and try to find out who they were. So we excavated the skeletons scientifically at Rakhigarhi. There was no contamination. All the four skeletons are in good condition.

The facial bones of two skeletons are intact. We are going to show the world how the Harappan man looked like. This will happen in July. It will be a breakthrough in Harappan studies.”

“…using the DNA to be extracted from the four full-sized skeletons excavated… and a novel software developed in South Korea, archaeologists of the Deccan College Postgraduate and Research Institute, Pune, are confident of projecting, in a few months, how the Harappans looked like 4,500 years ago — their build, the colour of their skin or hair, their facial features and so on”.

The archaeologists of the Deccan institute, and Haryana’s Department of Archaeology, have stated that the skeletons belonged to the Mature Harappan period (2600 BCE-1900 BCE). The tests will be done by the college staff and forensic scientists of Seoul National University, South Korea.

Rakhigarhi is in Hisar district. The site has 21 trenches and four burial pits. Dr Shinde, a specialist in Harappan civilisation has excavated Harappan sites at Farmana, Girawad and Mitathal, all in Haryana.

He says: “The 21 trenches yielded typical Harappan painted pottery, including goblets, terracotta figurines of wild boar and dogs, and furnaces and hearths that provided evidence of a bangle- and bead-making industry”.

The Indians have announced to the academic world that the latest Rakhigarhi finds establish it as the biggest Harappan civilisation site. Until now Mohenjo-daro in Pakistan was the largest among the 2,000 Harappan sites known to exist in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The archaeological remains at Mohenjo-daro extend around 300 hectares. Mohenjo-daro, Harappa and Ganweriwala (all in Pakistan) and Rakhigarhi and Dholavira (both in India) are ranked as the first to the fifth biggest Harappan sites. With the discovery of two additional mounds, the total area of the Rakhigarhi site is 350 hectares, making it the largest.

Dr Shinde says: “It was earlier thought that the origin of the early Harappan phase took place in Sind, in present-day Pakistan, because many sites had not been discovered then. In the last ten years, we have discovered many sites in Haryana, and there are at least five Harappan sites such as Kunal, Bhirrana, Farmana, Girawad and Mitathal, which are producing early dates and where the early Harappan phase could go back to 5000 BCE. We want to confirm it.

“Rakhigarhi is an ideal candidate to believe that the beginning of the Harappan civilisation took place in the Ghaggar basin in Haryana and it gradually grew from here. If we get the confirmation, it will be interesting because the origin would have taken place in the Ghaggar basin in India and slowly moved to the Indus valley. That is one of the important aims of our current excavation at Rakhigarhi.”

This in a nutshell is what the Indian scientists working at Rakhigarhi are saying about their finds. My view is that when scientists have pre-determined aims in matters of archaeology, then it is suspect. The declarations will have to wait until ‘verifiable’ findings. That is only fair.

Scientists, archaeologists and early period historians in Lahore, where a considerable amount of Harappan period work has taken place and materials exist, as well as experts working in the University of Cambridge in England one has come in contact with in the purse of a research, take a sedate view of the theory that is being proposed by the Indians. So where does the problem lie?

First, is the accepted theory: This states that the two major migrations in history, the Mediterranean-Australiods (Dravidians) migrations almost 20,000 years ago, and the Aryan movement of people almost 7,000-4,000 years ago, were both eastward movement of populations under varying circumstances. The entire work by all the ‘greats’ of Harappan archaeology have stated this.

No evidence, so far, including massive amounts of very recent research work using, among other techniques, DNA technology, has suggested a westward movement. If anything they have confirmed the eastward drift. Even the classic epics of the sub-continent clearly suggest an eastward movement.

Secondly, there is the irrefutable evidence of excavated sites in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Take Mehrgarh in Balochistan as an example. This site is clearly 9,500 years old. New carbon-dating technology has suggested a 12,000-10,000 year timeline for Mehrgarh. Did Mehrgarh and Mohenjo Daro come after Rakhigarhi? Surely no one is going to buy such an assumption in a hurry.

Harappa itself is an early period find, that being 3,000 BCE or 5,000 years plus old. The other finds in Pakistan, and more recently in Afghanistan, point to a stable agro-based settlement people 4,500 BCE or 6,500 years ago.

This is irrefutable work by internationally-recognised scientists. So though the Haryana finds are exciting, just how this point to a westward drift of populations is beyond comprehension.

Let me make it very clear that this piece is not about disproving or challenging the new theories. It must be said that some of the latest assertions about ‘Hindu inventions and discoveries’ thousands of years ago are best left alone. Scientific verification will take care of them.

Then why this westward drift of populations theory being proposed by Dr Shinde? Is it to disprove the irrefutable fact that the Hindu religion was born in the lands that today make up Pakistan? Is it to dispute the irrefutable fact that all the holy books of the Hindu religion were based and written in the lands of Pakistan?

Is it to disprove the irrefutable fact that almost all the people of India, thousands of years ago, came from the lands that are today Pakistan?

The lack of excavation work in Pakistan, the dearth of credible archaeologists working in Pakistan, the security situation restricting scientists from all over the world from working in Pakistan, and the lack of a knowledge-based environment, has created a vacuum in rational scientific thinking.

Narrow ‘belief-based’ thinking by alleged scientists and intellectuals has narrowed the world of Pakistani scholarship. We must accept this shortcoming of ours.

But then we must all accept that over the eons the subcontinent was an island that crashed into Asia, creating the Himalayas and providing the homo-erectus with fertile grounds to move eastwards, and that the melting of the ices meant our ancestors from Africa coming to possess the empty lands as they existed, followed much later by the Slavic peoples, who overwhelming them pushed them eastwards.

We must surely consider that religions are beliefs which are not verifiable. We must accept that our history is a continuum and does not end or start in any timeframe.

What evidence Haryana provides we must consider dispassionately. At the moment, it seems and I can be wrong, that this find at Rakhigarhi is providing the rising power of revisionist Hinduism with a chance to alter the very assumptions on which scientific verifiable research about our collective past takes place.

It is a short-term success that might grip a few. In the end truth has to prevail, as it has to prevail in Pakistan.

Haryana discovery that promises to challenge our ancient history - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

If they check history properly before creating this article then they know that the oldest site of Indus civilization is more the 7000BC old and the earliest one is also in Pakistan. Stop trying to highjack Pakistani history and for your information ancient Pakistani history is much earlier then you guys ever dream about

Mehrgarh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SrNair]

So what was happening down south before AMT happened?
Btw you made it sound like AIT and not AMT. Grr!

Indians were the first one that used Aryan as a term.Means 'noble' and at that time it was based on the peoples action not race.
The foreigners would be Persians.

 

[Sliver]

If they check history properly before creating this article then they know that the oldest site of Indus civilization is more the 7000BC old and the earliest one is also in Pakistan. Stop trying to highjack Pakistani history and for your information ancient Pakistani history is much earlier then you guys ever dream about

Mehrgarh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

from your own wikipedia post:
Mehrgarh (Balochi: Mehrgaŕh; Pashto: مهرګړ‎; Urdu: مہرگڑھ‎, sometimes anglicized as Mehergarh or Mehrgar, near the capital of the Kachi District Dadhar, is one of the most important Neolithic (6500 BCE to c. 2500 BCE) sites in archaeology.[1] According to Archaeological Survey of India report , Mehrgarh is the second oldest Indus Valley civilization site after Bhirrana, Haryana, India. [2] It lies on the Kacchi Plain of Balochistan, Pakistan. It is one of the earliest sites with evidence of farming and herding in South Asia.[3][4]


I request both the sides to consider not to corner history as "mine and yours". It is a collective human history. Recent disputes really have no place in history.

 

[wiseone2]

I think Indians have realized that they can't shift Indus Valley into India, So now they came with theory of opposite drift of population.? So, How IVC people reached Haryana? Any trace in South India? Or they landed there directly from Mars?

it is irrelevant

 

[Levina]

Material culture of south developed around 500BCE. Before that, South was basically a large tribal area.

It may disturb some Tamil chauvnists a lot, but earliest Tamil Grammar "Tolkappiyam" was written by Rishi Agastya and his disciple Tolkappiyar. Without those Brahmins whom Tamils love to hate, Tamil would have gone extinct a couple of thousand years ago.

Okay Mr.Anony... now dont test my history.
I know that somewhere in the iron age ppl started to spread from north to south, i'm not suggesting that south was an empty place before they appeared. Afaik since last 17000yrs there has been continuous human habitation in this part of the world. Interestingly not many have attacked this place (trust me it must be the temperature down south which repelled all the attackers @SarthakGanguly isnt it??? )
But..... I also know that the first Tami-Brahmi script appeared during the neolithic age (

)

Okay I know kerala has no claim to all this.

Is it the same agasthya who has a mountain named near my place in trivandrum?

The trekking towards that mountain is a very adventurous one.

Agastya Mala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some pics

I request both the sides to consider not to corner history as "mine and yours". It is a collective human history. Recent disputes really have no place in history.

Well we were pushed to the wall.
Nobody wants to claim their sites, but thanks to their insecurity, they keep peddling propaganda theories and then we 're forced to reply back in kind.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Its Sindhu-Saraswati civilisation Sir. Let's not use British names.

On topic:
Its very unfortunate that out of the 9 mounds found on Rakhigarhi, only 5 mounds 're available for excavations, as rest 're thickly populated. Another point to be noted is that the Harappan sites on the Indian side 've been discovered recently.
Infact work on the great bath of Dholavira (which is 3 times the size of the pool found in Mohenjodaro) began very recently in October 2014. I'm expecting more mind blowing facts to emerge from these sites.


Not much is known of Dravidans.
But yeah I remember Sir @Atanz calling me Indo-Australoid, or something to that effect. He's allergic to the word Dravidan. Lol

At least we are actively looking for our past. This is an interesting find. I don't understand this stuff much, so will wait for the conclusions to be drawn.

porus khan

Dahir Ali

Actually these names ARE cool.

Both these theories are debunked since the so called "Aryan race" is just a Mythical race. So who the hell is an Aryan ? Is he a White Caucasian from Mediterranean Europe ? Is he a German as Hitler suggested ? Is he a Uzbek ? Was he from Central Asia ? Did he come from Ural mountains or was he an Ukrainian ? The closest people who can be associated with so called Aryan race is Iranians. In-fact the term "Aryans" usually were used in India to refer royalty and are sometimes associated with civilized group of people. But it's a well known fact that so many group of people immigrated/strayed into India. Some came as invaders occasionally subduing whatever local population it had and some came as immigrants looking for a greener pasture. But these so called immigrants/invaders were never a single tribe/race/group of people. But these people came from different regions. In-fact same can be said about another large nation.

Aryans were a mythical group maybe. Who knows.

On a serious note, this does not say anything about Aryans, just that the Sindhu Saraswati Civilization was larger and more evolved than previously thought. Also in fact it does hint that it may have even moved from the East to West. Or perhaps simultaneous (in historical terms). Mohenjodaro, Lothal, Harrapa, Dholavira were not exceptions - but just more examples of the genius of the people that have lived in our land for thousands of years. That's what is clear. Aryans and Dravidians stuff can't be deduced from any of this. Till the DNA results are out.

I like to believe that there are no Aryans. Just people of the land. This land. Our land.

 

[nik141991]

I will deny anything that come from India. Soon they will say Rakhigarhi is older then Mehrgarh in Balochistan lol



So all this prove that migration was from west to east right? Hindus are invaders in India?

If they check history properly before creating this article then they know that the oldest site of Indus civilization is more the 7000BC old and the earliest one is also in Pakistan. Stop trying to highjack Pakistani history and for your information ancient Pakistani history is much earlier then you guys ever dream about

Mehrgarh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again present days Baluchi's who are recent migration in history have no connection whatsoever with the mehrgarh & its inhabitants & all mainstream scientists & historian say that the setteler of mehrgarh were dravadians who move eastwards which mean present day indians,again Indian claim is validated not Pakistan ,no wonder nobody take Pakistan seriously in any field lol

 

[Bang Galore]

You gotta be kidding me. The altars found in some of harappan cities were same as those found in Kerala,which 're still in use. It was Michel Danino who said this, the man who is credited for researching extensively in this field

Not enough evidence except to suggest influence was maybe the same. The whole of N.India has no place-names, river-names that are from the "non-Aryan" languages. Such a thing has almost never happened anywhere else where there was an older population existing.The evidence does not support that assertion.

Well they moved both eastwards and southwards. There is evidence of desertion in stage VII of harappan cities and this coincides with the time when Saraswati dried up.

Starts to get troublesome because vedic history is known to include the Sarasvati's flowing days as well as the time that it was drying up.(the Mahabharata mentions the Sarasvati as a then non-flowing river).

I'm sure you must 've heard of Brahui language which is a Dravidan language spoken in Baluchistan region of Af-Pak.

Yes but the Brahui language is dated to more recent times - end of the first millennium beginning of the 2nd millennium A.D.. It has to do with the loan words from the surrounding Iranian language, there is absolutely no-loan words whatsoever from the ancient Iranian languages, only from the recent ones. Again the evidence for an ancient presence of the Brahui does not exist. It does defy logic to have to believe that the Brahui somehow were the only ones to survive a wave of "Aryan" migration magically whereas all others didn't, to a point where there is no evidence of any such presence at all.

Standard disclaimer: Anything could have happened in pre historic times, my point is only about the evidence/ absence for such claims as presently known.

 

[Kabira]

Again present days Baluchi's who are recent migration in history have no connection whatsoever with the mehrgarh & its inhabitants & all mainstream scientists & historian say that the setteler of mehrgarh were dravadians who move eastwards which mean present day indians,again Indian claim is validated not Pakistan ,no wonder nobody take Pakistan seriously in any field lol

No one say IVC was build by dravidians. Sorry thats just not possible. They were not even capable of lighting fire on their own. They needed invaders for that.

 

[nik141991]

No one say IVC was build by dravidians. Sorry thats just not possible. They were not even capable of lighting fire on their own. They needed invaders for that.

Lol as I said nobody take Pakistan & their claim seriously , buy the way dravadians themselves are migrant to Indian subcontinent ,they are one of the oldest migrants