Harop, CBU-105: India's reply to terror squads

[Iggy]

One question..is IAI Harop reusable?i mean if they were send to search for terror camps and didnt find it..can it be landed again and used it for any other purpose??

 

[ARCHON]

Yes, so my only question is why cant we Use it as a UCAV

Lack of Technology.. we are getting good in UAVs but UCAVs technology has yet to be perfected..

Even Pakistan is getting ready for it, Its called Burraq (UCAV)
Burraq is a new unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) currently under development by the Pakistan Air Force and NESCOM, a Pakistani military research and development organisation.
In May 2009 the Burraq UCAV was reported to be undergoing flight testing and would be armed with a new laser-guided air-to-surface missile and laser designator, also designed by NESCOM.

 

[sudhir007]

One question..is IAI Harop reusable?i mean if they were send to search for terror camps and didnt find it..can it be landed again and used it for any other purpose??

No it is self destroyer

 

[ARCHON]

No it is self destroyer

There has to be some technology that can bring it back... like normal UAVs. maybe we will see it later

 

[AZAAD]

i agree that there is no need for us to do wasteful expenditures on things like these as they seems more like fancy toys rather than core necessity. instead of using our money prudently, we are behaving like a lady left free to shop.we are not a rich nation and its taxpayers hard earned money...

instead of hiring mackensy for business process re-engineering inside DRDO we are concentrating on peripheral items like these. we are not at war with Pakistan (as potrayed in the article) and even if it happens it wont last more than one month considering our economic/ military might. we dont need these items to win a war with our western neighbour.

we all are perhaps aware that chinese import of weapons has declined consistently for the past 5 years and ours has doubled, though one cant say so for the military/ economic strength. there is something gravely wrong with our approach. we better take corrective measures now otherwise we will end up being the world's arms dustbin

 

[sudhir007]

There has to be some technology that can bring it back... like normal UAVs. maybe we will see it later

if it then why not we use ucav or predator or may be lakshya

 

[Aryaputra]

c) What you said happen in 1967 might be true...Just consider does it make sense for Pakistan to invest in R&D(which will take a lot of time and money to fructify) or shall it buy state of art weapons to counter Indian advancements(which as per them would be the need of the hour)??? Now replace India with China and Pakistan with India you will see a similar argument...Having said it we are slowly but surely moving towards being indegenous

India is not Pakistan. India and China are two civilizations. Pakistan is not. Its a rented-state. Can you explain what similarity you found between India & Pakistan?

Also, I won't say we are going towards indigeneous route. There is clear lack of roadmap towards that, even after 60 years.

The policymakers have always focused on - "import whatever you can" while clearing denying big-ticket funds to domestic projects.

And, even in those exceptions, where funds came, they came too late and too little.

And, they still do same. Tell me, whats national plan/goals for next 50 years? Noone knows. There is none. Policies are short-sighted even today.

d) Do you remember our pathetic loss in 1962 agasint China?? Had we invested in R&D thereafter vs buying state of art weapons from USSR we would have faced the same story in 1965...Don't you think so???

Wars are good temptations to get emotional and forget long-term goals and focus on short-term weapon-imports.

Thats what India did after 1965 and closed HAL's indigeneous R&D programmes. It was a blunder.

When India realized the mistakes and tried to restart home-grown aircraft programme in 1987, with first funding coming in 1989, obviously it lagged behind by 20 years. And, those in MoD and IAF blame DRDO for delays in LCA!

The thieves are blaming the saints.

 

[Aryaputra]

we dont need these items to win a war with our western neighbour.

Cowards don't fight wars. They only import weapons and sit on it, to assure themselves that "all is well".

we all are perhaps aware that chinese import of weapons has declined consistently for the past 5 years and ours has doubled, though one cant say so for the military/ economic strength. there is something gravely wrong with our approach. we better take corrective measures now otherwise we will end up being the world's arms dustbin

We used to be Russia's arms dustbin. Now, we are becoming Israel and USA's dustbin.

DRDO's budget is 15% of weapon imports budget and it has always been so.

 

[deckingraj]

Thanks for putting such a detailed response...In short i agree with almost everything...However as said in above post i have not an iota of doubt on the capabilities of DRDO...still you get to take things in prospective....

ok, I will answer one by one in short. Short answer is "corruption" & "chalta hai" attitude in MoD babus.

And i agree 100% on it...I would go on to say we needed a shock like Kargil to have a dent on that phyche..Mind it its just a dent...any sane person would have been blown away...Anyways atleast the dent has made us move in the right direction....

Long answer goes like this. -

Delays are due to bureaucratic culture. ISRO is also run by Government. why it doesn't fail or have massive delays? Answer is, the difference between DRDO and ISRO's hierarcy. ISRO is under PM Office, it doesn't have to wait years for every small sanction on project matters or day to day issues. But in DRDO's case, it is under MoD(a ministry with 100 fools who think they understand science better than junior scientists in DRDO).

Thats one reason why DRDO walks like a thirsty dog.

The day Complete Autonomy is given to DRDO management(which has most scientists) as compared to MoD babus(arrogant fools) who control DRDO, you will see DRDO completing projects faster and even better than imports.

I am in agreement..However i want more private partners to be involved as well.. This will keep DRDO on its toes and result hungry...Trust me i am not speaking from thin air...During my Engineering days i have worked for 6 months in DRDO laboratory and have seen how things are worked out there...trust me there was lot of incompetency there and employees were not pushed for results....As far as funds goes Kargil war did bring in some healthy change...Just for my Laboratory 50 Million INR was release(Never happened in the history of that Lab)....

I have answered "delay" part of your question. Now I will focus on where Army fits into this "delay" problem.

Thanks...Let me reply back as well...

First thing is, home-grown R&D is must. You can't substitute it with imports. Yes, you should import if home projects are taking time. Every country does that. But things are different in India's case. Like, those countries never divert funds to imports from home-projects. India does.The first is okay, but the second is a scam.

You are right...Home grown R&D is must and you should not divert funds to imports from home-projects...However what would you do if funds are limited??? Country as poor as India was during 1960-1990 with adversaries like China and Pak on both sides of the border imports become an obvious choice...Mind it i am not saying this is the right choice...However you tend to move towards more stable and secure option i.e. imports because at that time short term gains are much important than long term gains...secondly geo-politics also force some decisions on you...Pakistan economy was growing faster than India...China was anyways superceding us in almost anything and bonhomie between china and Pak complemented with indias Non-Alignment stand all played a crucial factor in decision making...So before calling it scam we should keep that in mind as well....

And, Armed forces are also partly responsible for that because they were the ones who supported stopping funding of HAL's Aircraft research division in 1967. Because, these Armed forces said - "Russians are good. We don't need waste funds on domestic projects. Close it."

See mate army will always goes for what it sees best...Such decisions about diverting money from R&D is MOD's work...However i agree that our planners including Army did not make a good decision by ignoring R&D...Though don't agree it was out of arrogance but was due to serious budget shortage....

They lacked the vision. They realized the mistake in 1987 and asked HAL to restart work on Indian Fighter programme.

What HAL had left after 20 years to start with? ZILCH. They had no base, because most of aviation scientists left the job in 1967 and migrated to USA. Now these same morons in IAF,MoD blame DRDO, HAL for old-technology and delays.

What you have said is painful but truth....

There is one more reason why Indian Armed forces are known as "killers of DRDO" -

They refuse to work closely with DRDO on floor, which is standard practice in developed countries. US Armed force has done more work with Lockheed martin than what IAF ever did with HAL other than blaming them in public, like kids. That shows communication gap between IAF and developers.

This is another painful truth...However it can't be just Army...If you are not talking to me than i should reach out to you...So DRDO has to share some blame there....

Today, the basic issues are still same. The fact is that, MoD and IAF are filled with short-sighted people who think they are "experts" but lack genuine temperament to understand how "innovation" processes work.

Not sure if i agree there...In fact people seems to have realized this mistake and if you og by reports you tend to get an inclination that there is more co-operation between Army and DRDO...Though the pace and effectiveness is debatable....

Thankfully, US Airforce is not dumb like Indian forces, who start blaming scientists on delays but rather they take steps to work closer with them to solve and rectify issues.

By the way, every imported Russian weapon system paid babus in MoD. So, no wonder LCA is lagging so much.

Compare what LCA got in total funding till today(3 Billion dollars) over 20 years and how much India paid to Russia in 20 years. You will get the mystery behind failure of DRDO.

I must say i am ignorant about this...So will go by your words...Though as per my limited understanding it was not the lack of funds but the sanctions(after nuclear test) and DRDO problems with engine Kaveri that are primarily responsible for delays...The fact that GOI is still keeping both the programmes alive gives an inclination about resolve of GOI behind these programmes...

 

[Im_a_bud_bud]

Title should be "India replies WITH terror squads." Haha because we are a terrorist nation, we support the war OF terror in Afghan and in our own nation.

 

[Aryaputra]

There has to be some technology that can bring it back... like normal UAVs. maybe we will see it later

Harop is an outdated idea.

Just because its from Israel, its blurring the thoughts of people and everyone is jumping to conclusion, "hey..its made by Israel!! its the best!!". Noone cared to analyze whether it fits the bills and use in India's scenario.

There are better ideas around which are not being explored because they don't involve "kickbacks" to Mod babus. If project goes to any Indian company(TATA) or DRDO, babus get no "bribe" and all this dogma of "antony" is a purified and holy saint, doesn't make sense.

If India can reach moon, then it doesn't take 10 years to modify Lakshya into "drop-bomb and return" mode.

Why noone talks about trasnferring Lakhya to TATA to convert it into Loiter-And-Attack Mode? Because, it pays noone.

Lakshya will die similary just as TATA's samyukta EW system was killed & was refused funding for making advanced version(competition for Israeli AWECS), despite being matching in quality & performance to "imported" Israeli version.

Its plain case of one more import to the long list of toys, adding more attractions into republic parade.

 

[deckingraj]

India is not Pakistan. India and China are two civilizations. Pakistan is not. Its a rented-state. Can you explain what similarity you found between India & Pakistan?

Similarities are purely on friends-foe relationship....Lets not get into civilizations etc etc...India is growing much faster than Pakistan and we are adversary...So Pakistan immediate headache is to ensure that have sufficient deterants to avoid any aggression by India...Now tell me what option would you choose when you have limited funds???

R&D - Long term and best solution for future leaving present in dark and risking any future at all??
Buying from Abroad - Bad solution as far as future goes but good enough to keep your hopes for fixing it in future...


India was/is facing the similar dilemna viz-a-viz china...and that'e where i wanted you to compare...I have already explained my opinion on rest of your thoughts in previous post of mine...

 

[deckingraj]

Harop is an outdated idea.

Just because its from Israel, its blurring the thoughts of people and everyone is jumping to conclusion, "hey..its made by Israel!! its the best!!". Noone cared to analyze whether it fits the bills and use in India's scenario.

There are better ideas around which are not being explored because they don't involve "kickbacks" to Mod babus. If project goes to any Indian company(TATA) or DRDO, babus get no "bribe" and all this dogma of "antony" is a purified and holy saint, doesn't make sense.

If India can reach moon, then it doesn't take 10 years to modify Lakshya into "drop-bomb and return" mode.

Why noone talks about trasnferring Lakhya to TATA to convert it into Loiter-And-Attack Mode? Because, it pays noone.

Lakshya will die similary just as TATA's samyukta EW system was killed & was refused funding for making advanced version(competition for Israeli AWECS), despite being matching in quality & performance to "imported" Israeli version.

Its plain case of one more import to the long list of toys, adding more attractions into republic parade.

May i ask a simple question...How much money and time do you think will take Lakshya to be converted into a UCAV like predator???

 

[ARCHON]

Harop is an outdated idea.

yes 2005 is such an outdated idea.. any new UCAV YOU KNOW ABOUT?/ then please explain

Just because its from Israel, its blurring the thoughts of people and everyone is jumping to conclusion, "hey..its made by Israel!! its the best!!". Noone cared to analyze whether it fits the bills and use in India's scenario

.

All agree isreals expertise in electronic warfare.. any faulty system by isreal u are aware of???
then please explain

There are better ideas around which are not being explored because they don't involve "kickbacks" to Mod babus. If project goes to any Indian company(TATA) or DRDO, babus get no "bribe" and all this dogma of "antony" is a purified and holy saint, doesn't make sense.

if drdo is all about bride ..please say we dont need to produce anything here...

If India can reach moon, then it doesn't take 10 years to modify Lakshya into "drop-bomb and return" mode.

Then its better to keep it for 10 years until new one arrives..

Why noone talks about trasnferring Lakhya to TATA to convert it into Loiter-And-Attack Mode? Because, it pays noone.

Because everyone except you knows lakshya is a UAV.
When did TATA became expert in loiter and attack munition??

Lakshya will die similary just as TATA's samyukta EW system was killed & was refused funding for making advanced version(competition for Israeli AWECS), despite being matching in quality & performance to "imported" Israeli version.

Are u sure it was because of funding to TATA

Its plain case of one more import to the long list of toys, adding more attractions into republic parade.

Yes cancel all the ship deals, all the aircraft deals and gun deals.. after all who watches the republic day parade???/

 

[ARCHON]

May i ask a simple question...How much money and time do you think will take Lakshya to be converted into a UCAV like predator???

Dint you read his post he clealy said 10 years .. using probability theory

If India can reach moon, then it doesn't take 10 years to modify Lakshya into "drop-bomb and return" mode.