Hamid Mir attacks army

[Death Professor]

I am biased against anyone who abrogates the constitution of Pakistan, whether he/she be in uniform or otherwise. And what proof do you need for my allegation?

Here's your proof:

Is that Aroosa Alam(President of SAFMA) at 02:26? Or maybe I am mistaken?

 

[El Sidd]

Truth stings like a bitch, sorry to break your bubble, but army soldier is not the only one who takes an oath.

Cut the bullshit, you don't give a f**k about the constitution, all you care about is using it as a tool against army because it justifies your political goal.

It also said so in the constitution, to ensure the security and defense of our country and protect against threats. Our institutions are exactly doing that.

So what are the IMF conditions? And details of US and Indian negotiations?

All institutions have been declared corrupt by PM on every stage possible.

 

[Syed1.]

Truth stings like a bitch, sorry to break your bubble, but army soldier is not the only one who takes an oath.

Cut the bullshit, you don't give a f**k about the constitution, all you care about is using it as a tool against army because it justifies your political goal.

It also said so in the constitution, to ensure the security and defense of our country and protect against threats. Our institutions are exactly doing that.

This same guy was begging for Shahbaz Sharif to be made incharge when corona broke out. These loser patwaris masquerade as the biggest upholders of the constitution because it suits their political agenda at the moment.



What about the part of the constitution that forbids looting and plundering when in power. You won't see @Xestan or @Jungibaaz barking about that.

 

[Jungibaaz]

I'll ignore your rant but abuse of power by other institutions does not absolve a soldier from breaking his sacred oath.

Oath breakers and traitors should be treated the same, whether in uniform or otherwise.

This argument that you're replying to is called whataboutery. Forget generals and their regard for the constitution, everyone violates it anyway, what about x,y,z violations. Sprinkle in a strawman to assume that somehow we defend those other violations just because we are drawing attention to generals.

 

[Patriot forever]

This same guy was begging for Shahbaz Sharif to be made incharge when corona broke out. These loser patwaris masquerade as the biggest upholders of the constitution because it suits their political agenda at the moment.



What about the part of the constitution that forbids looting and plundering when in power. You won't see @Xestan or @Jungibaaz barking about that.

We all know no one in this country has a reputation of not violating the constitution. Every segment of our society manipulates it. At least the army steps over the line for nations sake not personal interest.

My blood boils when I see hypocrites selectively applying this logic against one institution to further a particular agenda while ignoring the rest.

 

[The Accountant]

If one journalist says it could be bs, if a few of them claim similar stories, they might still lack credibility. But far too many of them have gone through this to not be taken seriously.

The army and the ISI has a habit of taking the law into their own hands pulling shit like this. Everyone involved in each incident deserves to be brought to justice.



Matiullah Jan, Hamid Mir, Ahmad Noorani, Asad Ali Toor, Raza Khan, Taha Siddiqui, Zeenat Shehzadi, Sajid Gondal, Saleem Shahzad, Absar Alam. All or most of these people allege that the army, or the ISI, were behind their respective kidnapping and detention, or shootings, or other attacks.

Sources:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...r-criticising-military-kidnapped-in-islamabad
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...st-taha-siddiqui-military-attempted-abduction
https://rsf.org/en/news/pakistani-journalist-critical-military-wounded-gunfire
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44382719
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/20/world/asia/pakistan-journalist-military.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/world/asia/pakistan-media-abductions.html
https://www.bbc.com/urdu/pakistan-54024960
https://www.vox.com/2018/3/27/17053776/pakistan-military-isi-journalists-abductions
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ng-journalists-pakistan-amnesty-international

For a good indication of how media freedoms are viewed in Pakistan, and who is most often accused of the grossest violations. Just take your pick of any of the following organisations and what they have to say about press freedom:

• The UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights
• Amnesty International
• The European Commission (EU's) EEAS
• Asian Human Rights Commission
• RSF Reporters without borders (Reporters sans frontières)
• Council of Pakistan Newspaper Editors

It reminds me of a quote (I'll paraphrase to skip the profanity):

"If you happen to run into a [scoundrel] in the morning, you ran into a [scoundrel]. But if you run into [scoundrels] all day, you're the [scoundrel]."

It applies well here.

Whats the role of media here ? Are they out if sin? The people we r talking about r the honest journalist and are not taking bribes for making anti state propaganda.

We need to understand the difference between anti state journalisim and true journalisim.

Army represent states. U can highlight issues of individuals but u should not defame an state institution. Isnt it hurting the state?

If musharaf is living on the money of foreign governments then y dont he publish the story with proof identifying specific against an individual rather than blackmailing state?

 

[The Eagle]

While we continue, please have a listen to this Mossad/RAW agent's fake story.

I see what you're saying, and I don't know either. But I'd have to be exercising in a huge display of wilful ignorance to believe that none or most of these stories aren't true.

The Mati continues but here is another thing,,,,,

قاضی صاحب کے میمو گیٹ سکینڈل، سانحہ کوئٹہ انکوائری، کلبھوشن یادیو کیس اور حدیبیہ پیپر ملز کی تحقیقات میں مرکزی کردار ادا کرنے کی ایک ہوش ربا داستان. ©... | By Pakistan Defence | Facebook

قاضی صاحب کے میمو گیٹ سکینڈل، سانحہ کوئٹہ انکوائری، کلبھوشن یادیو کیس اور حدیبیہ پیپر ملز کی تحقیقات میں مرکزی کردار ادا کرنے کی ایک ہوش ربا داستان. ©...

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[Jungibaaz]

Whats the role of media here ? Are they out if sin? The people we r talking about r the honest journalist and are not taking bribes for making anti state propaganda.

We need to understand the difference between anti state journalisim and true journalisim.

Army represent states. U can highlight issues of individuals but u should not defame an state institution. Isnt it hurting the state?

If musharaf is living on the money of foreign governments then y dont he publish the story with proof identifying specific against an individual rather than blackmailing state?

Brother, I can't defend each and every journalist's editorial line. I had never heard of this Toor fellow before this event. Nor can we say with any confidence that all of these people are all honest, sincere, etc. But that doesn't also mean however, that just because they are accusing the army, that they are all scoundrels by default. We have an established history in this country of army excesses.

They are alleging en masse, censorship, enforced disappearances, and other abuses on press freedom by authorities of all sorts, including the security establishment; if that is true then IMO the question isn't what did the journos do to deserve any of this, it's a simple legal matter, and it's clear cut. Any and all such action is extrajudicial and itself punishable by law. If any officer of the army knowingly participates in or orders any of this (if such a charge is proven against them), they should be relieved of their rank for violating their oaths and the law, and then tried in courts.

On the subject of what's patriotic and not patriotic, what's anti-state and what is allowed, all of this can be subjective... In my opinion, criticism of the army, an accurate or even critical assessment of our history, or an account of the state's excesses is not necessarily anti-state, I can even be patriotic. We recognise this virtue within the intelligentsia of our enemies, why can't we do it for our own? When an Indian journalist or human rights worker alleges human rights abuses in Kashmir, or draconian hindu fanatacism, we see its value. When Israeli historians give a proper account of their history and violations of int'l law, it's accepted. When ours allege any of the same, they're immediately branded anti-state, even if the fact of the matter is beyond assail. And where one discusses those who violate the constitution while holding civil or military office, whether or not we see that as bad, the law literally defines that as treason.

Anyway, I don't want to drone on. This is my personal opinion, please feel free to disagree.

 

[RescueRanger]

Actually this open criticism is a good thing. Especially judging by the mood in Islamabad right now.

 

[Verve]

Is he faking his injuries, or are they self-inflicted etc

Is there any evidence of Army/ISI being involved? Evidence is not claims (made by anyone). Evidence and claim clearly have different meanings so best not to act like Indians who come up with their own meanings!

As for injuries and bullets going through bodies without touching organs, where is the evidence? I can fire 3 bullets at the door of my car, spill some blood (easily sourced from a blood bank) and then wrap bandage over my t-shirt claiming ISI shot me! Conspiracy theorists and bughz-e-Army/ISI lot will lap it up. You have admitted that you have seen no evidence of gunshot wounds and hamid mir and absar alam were shot with .30cal (TT) and shooters were amateurs to say the least. I own a few firearms (inc a TT) and a professional hitman or agent would not use a TT - it has too much recoil, poor accuracy and the bullet would go through the body at close range. And then the low capacity magazine (8 rounds in a mag) versus a 9mm (from 16 to 21 rounds in a mag) for an assassination attempt defies logic when 9mm is more easily available (even local made).

The mental gymnastics comment is one which describes contorting and bending one's logic, intuition, and critical thinking, to serve a preconceived conclusion.

Logic, intuition and critical thinking varies person to person. Those interested in media trial, as you seem to be, will have very different set of the 3 above compared to those who prefer analysing FACTS of the events!

 

[Jungibaaz]

Is there any evidence of Army/ISI being involved? Evidence is not claims (made by anyone). Evidence and claim clearly have different meanings so best not to act like Indians who come up with their own meanings!

100% agree, nobody can say with any certainty who was involved or why. Nor can the accuser's claim be believed without due process. That's why I said many pages earlier that it should be investigated, FIA should record statements, agencies collect and present the relevant evidence, and all of it should be presented before a court.

My only apprehension in the above is that I do not seriously believe that if the accused (security establishment) were really involved, that they'd ever be brought to justice.

As for injuries and bullets going through bodies without touching organs, where is the evidence?

I think you're being unfair here. How often when people are shot, even in high profile cases, are bullet wounds, and all these detailed images publicised? Especially considering that Hamid Mir sustained three bullet wounds, which I've just read now as one in the abdomen, another in the pelvis, and another in the upper thigh, do you think it would appropriate or even remotely normal for the pictures to be publicised? Do you always hold this level of proof whenever you hear about someone being shot, why reserve such standards here?

I can fire 3 bullets at the door of my car, spill some blood (easily sourced from a blood bank) and then wrap bandage over my t-shirt claiming ISI shot me! Conspiracy theorists and bughz-e-Army/ISI lot will lap it up. You have admitted that you have seen no evidence of gunshot wounds and hamid mir and absar alam were shot with .30cal (TT) and shooters were amateurs to say the least. I own a few firearms (inc a TT) and a professional hitman or agent would not use a TT - it has too much recoil, poor accuracy and the bullet would go through the body at close range. And then the low capacity magazine (8 rounds in a mag) versus a 9mm (from 16 to 21 rounds in a mag) for an assassination attempt defies logic when 9mm is more easily available (even local made).

So you're saying he faked it? He fooled everyone? Fooled the media, fooled the hospital (perhaps?), fooled ISPR, fooled the then PM and current PM, fooled the judicial commission who took up the matter.

And you came to this fantastical conclusion how?

If this isn't your conclusion, then frankly, I don't know what we're doing with these flights of fancy.

 

[Verve]

Do you always hold this level of proof whenever you hear about someone being shot, why reserve such standards here?

If such evidence is not provided in the court of law, it is assumed that the person is not shot! Guns, bullets and wounds are primary evidences - please study some criminal law.

So you're saying he faked it? He fooled everyone? Fooled the media, fooled the hospital (perhaps?), fooled ISPR, fooled the then PM and current PM, fooled the judicial commission who took up the matter.

Why was the case not pursued in the court of law by him, if he was not faking it all? Did judicial commission hold ISI responsible - without knowing the identity of the shooter(s)? He has been barking against the Army/ISI for years and I find it completely illogical that ISI would deploy amateur gunmen with .30cal to assassinate him. He's a nobody and fast becoming the next Talat Hussain. Social media is killing these lafafa anchors and rightly so. Army/ISI doesn't need to waste time and bullets on such scum.

You carry on with media trial and your conspiracy theories.

 

[PakFactor]

Impartial analysis on his allegations:

He has not abused the institution of Army or whole army. Just gave few remarks against Pervez Musharaf. Now he has to prove his allegations. His words are softer as compared to the tweets of maryam nawaz. So, if state will arrest him, then there will be a question for equality of justice!

Generals should not declare any remarks against them as an anti-state or anti-army treason because in Pakistan, it is a reality that our army's top brass participated in politics overtly or covertly. Nawaz, Zardari, Imran, Altaf are the products of few such decisions.

Gen Bajwa has criticized the decisions of Gen Zia in one of his speech, maybe a Gen after 15-20 years will criticize the decisions of Gen Bajwa. Humans are not error proof!

What he say about Zia?

 

[Jungibaaz]

If such evidence is not provided in the court of law, it is assumed that the person is not shot! Guns, bullets and wounds are primary evidences - please study some criminal law.

Why was the case not pursued in the court of law by him, if he was not faking it all? Did judicial commission hold ISI responsible - without knowing the identity of the shooter(s)? He has been barking against the Army/ISI for years and I find it completely illogical that ISI would deploy amateur gunmen with .30cal to assassinate him. He's a nobody and fast becoming the next Talat Hussain. Social media is killing these lafafa anchors and rightly so. Army/ISI doesn't need to waste time and bullets on such scum.

You carry on with media trial and your conspiracy theories.

As far as I can tell, the judicial commission's inquiry report never once cast doubt on the validity of his injuries, he was shot. Both the it and the security agencies failed to identify the attackers so that the matter never went any farther. Any accusations against the ISI and army were nullified by the lack of evidence related to the actual suspects who carried out the attack, and the submitted affidavits from both sides ultimately not amounting to much on their own without the necessary input of the actual suspects.

To get an idea of whether this commission would ever be capable of truly bringing the security establishment to justice (if indeed they were responsible), one can judge that by one the highest ranking officer summoned by the commission, just think what happened to another man in his position recently, and whom it was who is alleged to have orchestrated that affair. And some of the other affidavits from other members of the media discussed in that report might interest you, you should read a few of them to get a taste of how and why these people blame the ISI, or at least strongly suspect them. And also what became of their inquiries, and what that meant for the likely direction of this one.

You can read the whole thing here:

http://www.fnpk.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Hamid-Mir-Commision-Leaked-Report.pdf

 

[Xestan]

Truth stings like a bitch, sorry to break your bubble, but army soldier is not the only one who takes an oath.

Cut the bullshit, you don't give a f**k about the constitution, all you care about is using it as a tool against army because it justifies your political goal.

It also said so in the constitution, to ensure the security and defense of our country and protect against threats. Our institutions are exactly doing that.

So basically, you're saying a soldier can violate his oath to the constitution because a politician does too?

Great argument, my friend.

You have no idea who I am and what my political views are, so don't bother destroying those braincells for a non-issue.