Hamid Mir attacks army

[AbuzarIlyas]

What he say about Zia?

His remarks about Pakistan's participation in Afghan War against USSR

 

[Verve]

As far as I can tell, the judicial commission's inquiry report never once cast doubt on the validity of his injuries, he was shot. Both the it and the security agencies failed to identify the attackers so that the matter never went any farther. Any accusations against the ISI and army were nullified by the lack of evidence related to the actual suspects who carried out the attack, and the submitted affidavits from both sides ultimately not amounting to much on their own without the necessary input of the actual suspects.

To get an idea of whether this commission would ever be capable of truly bringing the security establishment to justice (if indeed they were responsible), one can judge that by one the highest ranking officer summoned by the commission, just think what happened to another man in his position recently, and whom it was who is alleged to have orchestrated that affair. And some of the other affidavits from other members of the media discussed in that report might interest you, you should read a few of them to get a taste of how and why these people blame the ISI, or at least strongly suspect them. And also what became of their inquiries, and what that meant for the likely direction of this one.

You can read the whole thing here:

http://www.fnpk.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Hamid-Mir-Commision-Leaked-Report.pdf

Do you think ISI is not capable of taking these journalists out without resorting to shooting? Did the Russians use guns to take out their target, Skirpal, in UK? ISI must be some cowboy organisation eh?

 

[Jungibaaz]

Do you think ISI is not capable of taking these journalists out without resorting to shooting? Did the Russians use guns to take out their target, Skirpal, in UK? ISI must be some cowboy organisation eh?

They ought to be capable enough.

 

[Verve]

They ought to be capable enough.

Then why the heck do you think would they botch up the assassinations by leaving their targets alive and beat up a YouTuber with a rifle butt?

BTW, there is news that the attackers of this latest journalist have been identified and another news is that ISI has caught them.

 

[The Accountant]

Brother, I can't defend each and every journalist's editorial line. I had never heard of this Toor fellow before this event. Nor can we say with any confidence that all of these people are all honest, sincere, etc. But that doesn't also mean however, that just because they are accusing the army, that they are all scoundrels by default. We have an established history in this country of army excesses.

They are alleging en masse, censorship, enforced disappearances, and other abuses on press freedom by authorities of all sorts, including the security establishment; if that is true then IMO the question isn't what did the journos do to deserve any of this, it's a simple legal matter, and it's clear cut. Any and all such action is extrajudicial and itself punishable by law. If any officer of the army knowingly participates in or orders any of this (if such a charge is proven against them), they should be relieved of their rank for violating their oaths and the law, and then tried in courts.

On the subject of what's patriotic and not patriotic, what's anti-state and what is allowed, all of this can be subjective... In my opinion, criticism of the army, an accurate or even critical assessment of our history, or an account of the state's excesses is not necessarily anti-state, I can even be patriotic. We recognise this virtue within the intelligentsia of our enemies, why can't we do it for our own? When an Indian journalist or human rights worker alleges human rights abuses in Kashmir, or draconian hindu fanatacism, we see its value. When Israeli historians give a proper account of their history and violations of int'l law, it's accepted. When ours allege any of the same, they're immediately branded anti-state, even if the fact of the matter is beyond assail. And where one discusses those who violate the constitution while holding civil or military office, whether or not we see that as bad, the law literally defines that as treason.

Anyway, I don't want to drone on. This is my personal opinion, please feel free to disagree.

I respect your personal opinion and in principal i agree with u. But your opinion seems a bit biased and seems to be under influence of mistakes done by armed forces in past.

First of all we need to segregate ISI from army. Although isi is directly under control of army chief however in theory its an intelligence and is parallel to CIA, Mosad, raw MI6. These type of activities are not uncommon anywhere in the world. Idea is to investigate such criminal activities which are non traditional in nature and are to sabotage the state.

While in past alot of mistakes were done by military but on the other hand military saved us countless time from evil plan of external forces as well.

Had it not been a powerful intelligence agency Pakistan could have turn into an other afghanistan, iraq or syria.

Had it not been support of intelligence agencies in managing purchase of critical equipment from black market we couldnt have become a nuclear state.

In your opinion there is complete ignorance about ongoing war on terrors since Last 20 years in which fifth generation warfare is going on. Dont we know it that beside political bias alot of journalist here are working on payroll of foreign intelligence agencies?

Even if u r analyze hamid mir statement, it is not about safeguard interest of Pakistan as he is blackmailing the intelligence agencies for saving his own a**. he is not saying that he is innocent but saying if u try to investigate us then we will also expose u. If he is an honest journalist then he should expose the blacksheeps no matter what. Furthermore if they have nothing to hide then why r they against intelligence agencies investigating them?

Brother we need to take a holistic view and need to understand that despite all of its weakness military represents state of Pakistan (not government) and any damage to military is damage to state. We need to take out criminal elements from military and has to control them and bring under political government but it does not mean that intelligence agencies should not take action against anti state elements.

Our judiciary do not have capacity to take action against common criminal. Idea of judiciary playing any effective roll against anti state activtities (which is far more complicated then common criminal activities) is far fetched.

Bottom line is military has its faults but our military intelligence is the only institute having capacity to fight fifth generation warfare and we should understand that if ISI dont take action then FIA, IB, police and judiciary will not wakeup untill disintegration of Pakistan.

 

[Adecypher]

People on this thread do not realize that the enemy have "deep pockets" and that means the enemy have a long list of assets on his payroll in Pakistan in various institutions (I am not defending any side here), some black sheep from these institutions create fitna when they are told to do so and that what you are witnessing right now ... I hope the guys who beaten up Mr. Toor will be caught and then things (I hope) will be clear...the sooner the better...

 

[SQ8]

People on this thread do not realize that the enemy have "deep pockets" and that means the enemy have a long list of assets on his payroll in Pakistan in various institutions (I am not defending any side here), some black sheep from these institutions create fitna when they are told to do so and that what you are witnessing right now ... I hope the guys who beaten up Mr. Toor will be caught and then things (I hope) will be clear...the sooner the better...

Well I am glad we are all coming to the same conclusion - Pakistanis are in general corrupt sellouts

 

[Adecypher]

Well I am glad we are all coming to the same conclusion - Pakistanis are in general corrupt sellouts

Sir ... paanchon ungliyan baraber nahin hotin... the huge majority is very patriotic, there is a very little percentage of those whose actions directly or indirectly undermine the "national interests" of Pakistan and they are well protected and funded the difference is in Pakistan they do not get rightful chitrool when it is needed...as our beloved Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) said 1400 years ago that the biggest fitna for muslims is maal (money)...

That is why IMHO the democratic form of Govt doesn't suite us...

 

[Respect4Respect01]

@Jungibaaz

here watch this, this might be the reason why Hamid Mir is mad at Army chief. Gen Bajwa exposed him infront of other journalists.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Then why the heck do you think would they botch up the assassinations by leaving their targets alive and beat up a YouTuber with a rifle butt?

BTW, there is news that the attackers of this latest journalist have been identified and another news is that ISI has caught them.

I can't possibly say why Hamid Mir or Absar Alam survived their gunshot wounds. Or why that method would be preferred to a more discrete method. For every case of a journalist being picked up in broad daylight, there are several where they are coerced away from prying eyes and quietly dissuaded. And frankly, the alternatives to this narrative that have been presented in this thread are just as conspiratorial, but even more outlandish. Fact of the matter is, Hamid Mir, his associates and family all claimed that he had been receiving death threats from the ISI, days before he was shot, and then he was shot, which I take that you now accept this as fact? Before this incident he told people that should something happen to me the DG ISI Zaheerul Islam would be the would-be culprit.

And in those subsequent inquiry proceedings Hamid Mir was summoned and appeared before the commission three times, whereas the general sahib never once saw fit to appear and be scrutinised. The inquiry that was meant to investigate the matter and present findings could not even get off the ground because the lack of ability of the commission to scrutinise the ISI or even get their accused man summoned. This shambolic lack of accountability is the crux of the matter and I why I don't see the lack of conviction and publicly scrutinsable court proceedings and evidence as a bar for assessing whether the ISI did something or not, frankly it's moot if that level of accountability is never allowed to happen. Even years later the report wasn't even published, in fact that version I sent you is still probably classed as leaked, not sure about that. Did you happen to read the parts I told you about by the way?

Also, on the news in bold, fantastic. Then it should be easy to find out who they are, whether these were in fact the actual perpetrators, and who sent them. Hopefully it's all done in a civilian court, and properly publicised for public scrutiny.

 

[Jungibaaz]

I respect your personal opinion and in principal i agree with u. But your opinion seems a bit biased and seems to be under influence of mistakes done by armed forces in past.

First of all we need to segregate ISI from army. Although isi is directly under control of army chief however in theory its an intelligence and is parallel to CIA, Mosad, raw MI6. These type of activities are not uncommon anywhere in the world. Idea is to investigate such criminal activities which are non traditional in nature and are to sabotage the state.

While in past alot of mistakes were done by military but on the other hand military saved us countless time from evil plan of external forces as well.

Had it not been a powerful intelligence agency Pakistan could have turn into an other afghanistan, iraq or syria.

Had it not been support of intelligence agencies in managing purchase of critical equipment from black market we couldnt have become a nuclear state.

In your opinion there is complete ignorance about ongoing war on terrors since Last 20 years in which fifth generation warfare is going on.

Dont we know it that beside political bias alot of journalist here are working on payroll of foreign intelligence agencies?

Even if u r analyze hamid mir statement, it is not about safeguard interest of Pakistan as he is blackmailing the intelligence agencies for saving his own a**. he is not saying that he is innocent but saying if u try to investigate us then we will also expose u. If he is an honest journalist then he should expose the blacksheeps no matter what. Furthermore if they have nothing to hide then why r they against intelligence agencies investigating them?

Brother we need to take a holistic view and need to understand that despite all of its weakness military represents state of Pakistan (not government) and any damage to military is damage to state. We need to take out criminal elements from military and has to control them and bring under political government but it does not mean that intelligence agencies should not take action against anti state elements.

Our judiciary do not have capacity to take action against common criminal. Idea of judiciary playing any effective roll against anti state activtities (which is far more complicated then common criminal activities) is far fetched.

Bottom line is military has its faults but our military intelligence is the only institute having capacity to fight fifth generation warfare and we should understand that if ISI dont take action then FIA, IB, police and judiciary will not wakeup untill disintegration of Pakistan.

I am cognisant of, and agree with a lot of what you've outlined here. Since we are only discussing criticisms of the ISI and the army. Please allow me to say that my comments presented here do not represent the totality of my opinions of, and feelings for these institutions. They are still the subject of my adoration and esteem, I class myself as a patriot, my interest in these institutions is what led me to this forum and other similar fora for at least the last 11 years. I celebrate their accolades just as much as any other here, be it Op Swift Retort, or their success and sacrifices in the numerous war on terror campaigns.

I also recognise the necessity to maintain both the strength and the dignity of these arms of the state for the defence of Pakistan against neighbours like India and Afghanistan, as well as other regional and global hegemons. There's no doubt that their duties are de facto patriotic and in service to the nation.

However, on the subject of their excesses, a proper account of their current standing, their obedience to the civilian parliament and executive, their accountability to law and citizenry, even simple things like financial audits for public scrutiny, these need more focus and attention. And therein lie an unceasing list of problem on matters which ought to be the subject of public debate.

Also, please allow me to disagree a bit on your comment about bias. If I carry an anti-army bias, the question arises as to why? Nobody on this forum (thankfully) has put into to question my patriotism or allegiance, plenty question about my sanity have arisen (a subjective matter if I say so myself, ), and plenty of perplexed persons have questioned whether I have business, personal, or political links (which I've always denied), that perhaps those links led me to adopting a view that they cannot justify given their own logical assessments. I would put my opinions down to a mix of some proper and critical reading of history, not just accolades and stories for national consumption, some inside info, and broadly agreeing with a lot of the critics of the army, whether they're journalists, academics, politicians, or judges. Sure, a lot of them could have scum in the ranks, but that's not a reason to dismiss criticisms.

I also don't like to make grand claims with nothing to justify them, let's just say that there lots of things which we on the forum, including you and I are not, and never will be privy to. By sheer happenstance and/or providence, there are also a few different things that I've heard from people who I know and trust, that have led to a big fall in my regard for some of the leadership of these institutions. I dare not say what they are, they are outlandish and absurd until they're proven. Hopefully 20 years from now you will be able to look back at this period when the dust has settled and fog has cleared, and the record has begun to be set straight, and understand why even in 2021, my opinions of these institutions, and the opinions of those who think like me, persisted as they did. For now, all I can do, is continue holding the views in which I earnestly believe, and apologise for any hurt that it causes members, and for any frustration given that evidence is as yet unavailable.

On your comments about Hamid Mir, I'm all ears, we may as well trade in conjecture since his own charge is yet to be proven.

 

[The Accountant]

I am cognisant of, and agree with a lot of what you've outlined here. Since we are only discussing criticisms of the ISI and the army. Please allow me to say that my comments presented here do not represent the totality of my opinions of, and feelings for these institutions. They are still the subject of my adoration and esteem, I class myself as a patriot, my interest in these institutions is what led me to this forum and other similar fora for at least the last 11 years. I celebrate their accolades just as much as any other here, be it Op Swift Retort, or their success and sacrifices in the numerous war on terror campaigns.

I also recognise the necessity to maintain both the strength and the dignity of these arms of the state for the defence of Pakistan against neighbours like India and Afghanistan, as well as other regional and global hegemons. There's no doubt that their duties are de facto patriotic and in service to the nation.

However, on the subject of their excesses, a proper account of their current standing, their obedience to the civilian parliament and executive, their accountability to law and citizenry, even simple things like financial audits for public scrutiny, these need more focus and attention. And therein lie an unceasing list of problem on matters which ought to be the subject of public debate.

Also, please allow me to disagree a bit on your comment about bias. If I carry an anti-army bias, the question arises as to why? Nobody on this forum (thankfully) has put into to question my patriotism or allegiance, plenty question about my sanity have arisen (a subjective matter if I say so myself, ), and plenty of perplexed persons have questioned whether I have business, personal, or political links (which I've always denied), that perhaps those links led me to adopting a view that they cannot justify given their own logical assessments. I would put my opinions down to a mix of some proper and critical reading of history, not just accolades and stories for national consumption, some inside info, and broadly agreeing with a lot of the critics of the army, whether they're journalists, academics, politicians, or judges. Sure, a lot of them could have scum in the ranks, but that's not a reason to dismiss criticisms.

I also don't like to make grand claims with nothing to justify them, let's just say that there lots of things which we on the forum, including you and I are not, and never will be privy to. By sheer happenstance and/or providence, there are also a few different things that I've heard from people who I know and trust, that have led to a big fall in my regard for some of the leadership of these institutions. I dare not say what they are, they are outlandish and absurd until they're proven. Hopefully 20 years from now you will be able to look back at this period when the dust has settled and fog has cleared, and the record has begun to be set straight, and understand why even in 2021, my opinions of these institutions, and the opinions of those who think like me, persisted as they did. For now, all I can do, is continue holding the views in which I earnestly believe, and apologise for any hurt that it causes members, and for any frustration given that evidence is as yet unavailable.

On your comments about Hamid Mir, I'm all ears, we may as well trade in conjecture since his own charge is yet to be proven.

Thanks for detailed explanation now understand what do u mean. It is good to read both of your post and we r in complete agreement.

May Allah keep Pakistan progressing

 

[Death Adder]

Everything aside, can someone please tell me who got shot over general rani affair?

 

[Asian.Century]

Uff Hamid Mir is all blazing against Generals, ISI Army: Bad Abuses to Pakistan Army:

 

[Muhammad Saifullah]

I am patriotic person but if pakistan hamded over its land n air bases to US you will see me as a great rebel