HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]

[zebra7]

I would rather have F-16s too, but the question is not whether JF-17 is better than F-16s, the question is whether it's better than a MIrage clone with questionable indigenous local content. China can export and transfer the whole JF-17 tech to Pakistan if we wanted to. It's just a matter of whether we want to screw up India.

You are comparing apples and oranges. If the aim of India to have a fighter plane for the replacement of the MIG-21, then it could have a plane desinged by Dassault, and produced by HAL decades ago, similar to what PAF got. But the LCA program, main aim, was to build the ecosystem in the country aka the institutions, labs, and learn the technology, and lower the technological difference, and in this whole process build a plane which is named as Tejas.

As far as the transfer of the whole JF-17 tech. to screw india is concerned, its not the matter, what you supplier your tech. to pakistan, rather its the tech. which Pakistan could absorb. And before being a gignostic, think of the OEM, who got the IPR, and the amount spend on developing such tech., and no sane OEM with the brains in their head will gave them free to someone in the REAL WORLD. Max. you can gave is the product, or the tech. to produce or manufacture, which you have already given. NO Surprise to India.

And most important, LCA is just the begining, and will fulfill the lower end of IAF, and will act as the base for the 5th GEN AMCA, and remember that, the story of the LCA will Inspire many Indian generations.

 

[DesiGuy1403]

What's up with the neighborinos saying "failure" "failure" thousands of times?!!

Let me know any endeavor in human history that didn't start with failure.
What is important is the progress and future projection.

If humans were afraid of failures and mocked each other when some one else failed, we would still be stuck in dark ages.

 

[zebra7]

I think only HAL aircraft get designations,eg: HF24, HPT36, HJT 16, HAOP 27, HUL26, HPT 32, HTT40, etc.

I think, the designation would be HAL Tejas HF-XX Mark X

 

[Stephen Cohen]

China can export and transfer the whole JF-17 tech to Pakistan if we wanted to.

Please elaborate and clarify

You mean to say that you have NOT transferred the whole of JF 17 technology
WHY is it so

And secondly even if you did that what difference it would make to the Final product
It would be still a JF 17

 

[Roybot]

I would rather have F-16s too, but the question is not whether JF-17 is better than F-16s, the question is whether it's better than a MIrage clone with questionable indigenous local content. China can export and transfer the whole JF-17 tech to Pakistan if we wanted to. It's just a matter of whether we want to screw up India.

According to the Pakistanis, JF-17 is a joint project, so they already have access to all of JF-17's technology.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

I would rather have F-16s too, but the question is not whether JF-17 is better than F-16s, the question is whether it's better than a MIrage clone with questionable indigenous local content. China can export and transfer the whole JF-17 tech to Pakistan if we wanted to. It's just a matter of whether we want to screw up India.

Well even if China sold out the design to Pakistan it is still second hand technology. It is very difficult to build an design house. Takes a lot of time and dedication. China took the easier way by copying the design. Indian armed forces usually would like to have more reliable systems than the Chinese. The Chinese will induct anything that is built in-house and modify it in future, but the Indian armed forces compare the in-house products with foreign systems and induct the better one or just for ma JV with them.

The Question is not the amount of Indigenous content. China is under sanctions from the world. If given the Choice the Chinese will prefer to have the Elta EL/M 2052 over the CHinese AESA any time.

 

[rockstarIN]

Failed is only according to you, but NOT for
Indian research and analysis they will keep trying until they realize the genious of Thomas Alva Edison. The kick always comes from the bottom.

But tell me if it has failed and I will show you it gas not. You will stumble upon something good which you haven't so far.

Again, this particular point I have ALREADY mentioned countless times in terms of the ancillary benefits of the program.
But, as the objective of delivering a Mig-21 replacement to the IAF within a justifiable timeframe and where its relevancy to the IAF would be beyond just a token "purchase" of a domestic product; It has failed.
.[/QUOTE]

as the objective of delivering a Mig-21 replacement to the IAF within a justifiable timeframe

Yes, itr was not ready for Mig-21 replacement.

IAF would be beyond just a token "purchase" of a domestic product; It has failed

I think you really follow the LCA programme and knew that around 120+ LCAs are in order from IAF and the recent praises from the flying dagger's leader about the fighter performance
Confirming order for 120 is not a 'token purchase' The programme faced lots of hurdles from IAF side and uttered lots of criticism about the fighter. If you are taking those on face value, you should take recent appreciation too on face value. Many of the its problems are sorted out and if you think a light fighter capable of carrying Elta 8222 jammer and Py-5+HMD and can drop guided bombs, (BVR on testing from Feb 16) can't replace current IAF mig-21s at front line duties, then its just your assumption.

 

[Centurion2016]

JF17 has as muvch Pakistani content AS the 200 INDIAN BULT SU30MKI.

Its local assembly capability

Thunder is not a Pakistani indengious fighter

its a Pakistani fighter designed and built by Chengdu to Pakistani spec and needs.

THATS WHY THERE IS NOT A SINGLE THUNDER/FC1 in service in PLAAF.

Back to topic TEJAS

NO OFFENCE TO ANYONE apologises to anybody in advance

 

[R!CK]

Well, the favourite Indian source, wikipedia is wrong then. So let's assume 50 JF-17 versus 2 LCAs.
Oucch, did I touch on something India doesn't have? AESA? Wow, you even know Pakistan doesn't want the AESA?

You are a funny man my dear friend, firstly u just proved u don't even know how many JF-17 block II is in-service so far. And you show the audacity to cover up your lack of knowledge of the topic by blaming wiki, lol.

Regarding AESA, I wish you knew PAF is scouting for a western avionics suite and radar for JF-17 Block III and the current Block II doesn't sport an AESA radar. So I don't really know where you got information that the Chinese AESA had interests outside China?

Your wholewhole argument is based on ur misinformation that JF-17 sports an AESA which it doesn't till date. And let me be clear, 60 JF-17 is better than 2 Tejas any day and the numbers will never be constant. Every aircraft type begins active service in low numbers, a smart man would wait couple of years to start comparing a new aircraft.

Personal advice: Use a forum to spread and gain knowledge. Don't just post wrong information just to feed personal ego.

Hmm, you need another 'consultant' for Kaveri?

Our research budget for jet engines is comparatively low, consultancy is a good path forward. Mayb it's better than attempting to copy/paste or reverse engineer?

Good Day!

 

[Han Patriot]

Well even if China sold out the design to Pakistan it is still second hand technology. It is very difficult to build an design house. Takes a lot of time and dedication. China took the easier way by copying the design. Indian armed forces usually would like to have more reliable systems than the Chinese. The Chinese will induct anything that is built in-house and modify it in future, but the Indian armed forces compare the in-house products with foreign systems and induct the better one or just for ma JV with them.

The Question is not the amount of Indigenous content. China is under sanctions from the world. If given the Choice the Chinese will prefer to have the Elta EL/M 2052 over the CHinese AESA any time.

What if I told you this, we Chinese BEG, STEAL, BORROW, REVERSE ENGINEER and INNOVATE upon those knowledge? We would do whatever it takes to be technologically independent.The easier way out is actually pay for a supposedly TOT (a couple of billion that could had fed some many starving Indians, developed a local manufacturing ecosystem), expecting a spoon feed, and cry if you can't absorb the technology. Does this remind you of someone? And also naively believing people would "transfer" those tech willingly?

And you naively think we don't compare all those technologies and just accept everything in house? If that's the case, it would have been India having a nuclear sub 20 years ago, a cryogenic engine 20 years ago and sending a human to space.

If given the choice, we would buy ELTA and reverse it and improve it and develop something new from it. But what makes you think we have no access to ELTA tech? After all these billions spent and spoonfeeding by so many foreign companies, you still can't produce something indigenous. Isn't this sheer incompetence?

 

[satishkumarcsc]

What if I told you this, we Chinese BEG, STEAL, BORROW, REVERSE ENGINEER and INNOVATE upon those knowledge? We would do whatever it takes to be technologically independent.The easier way out is actually pay for a supposedly TOT (a couple of billion that could had fed some many starving Indians, developed a local manufacturing ecosystem), expecting a spoon feed, and cry if you can't absorb the technology. Does this remind you of someone? And also naively believing people would "transfer" those tech willingly?

And you naively think we don't compare all those technologies and just accept everything in house? If that's the case, it would have been India having a nuclear sub 20 years ago, a cryogenic engine 20 years ago and sending a human to space.

If given the choice, we would buy ELTA and reverse it and improve it and develop something new from it. But what makes you think we have no access to ELTA tech? After all these billions spent and spoonfeeding by so many foreign companies, you still can't produce something indigenous. Isn't this sheer incompetence?

And that is why people do not sell to you. And Chinese systems are nowhere compared to the western systems. That is a given. I do commend the Chinese for making huge breakthroughs in different fields but this is something that the west and the Russians have done in the 80s.

We have our own way of doing things and you have yours. This does not give you the right to criticize the efforts made by our own government using legitimate means to acquire technology.

The Americans and Russians benefited from the unethical research done by the Nazis in world war 2. You can brag about all the copying and stealing ability of yours but you still could not perfect the Jet engine technology. This is something that can only be learned through experience and the mistakes that are being made.

You might have had a nuclear sub 20 years ago but a one that has never patrolled the oceans. You were a member of the permanent 5 in the UN security council but we were a pariah state from the start and yet we managed to get all these only through perseverance. Remember you were supported by the Soviet union with cryogenic technology and rocket technology but when they were about to give us the cryogenic engine the MTCR came into being. Yet now we are a part of the group.

And above all the attitude of reverse engineering the Elta radar is nice but unless and until you have designed the whole concept you would not know how to iron out the kinks in the system. The Chinese engineers have realized it now and have gone back to the drawing board.

And about the Chinese systems that you brag about...remember most of the countries that can afford or not under sanction will always choose a western/Russian system over the Chinese.

 

[jha]

And above all the attitude of reverse engineering the Elta radar is nice but unless and until you have designed the whole concept you would not know how to iron out the kinks in the system. The Chinese engineers have realized it now and have gone back to the drawing board.

And about the Chinese systems that you brag about...remember most of the countries that can afford or not under sanction will always choose a western/Russian system over the Chinese.

Exactly. Even Chinese Armed forces love Russian hardware over Chinese. Weird for such a developed country.

 

[Indrajith]

Fail or win happens only to people who try , but for people who dont do or try anything - they are safe no failure

I am happy that some people are anxiously trying to prove that Tejas (LCA) project is a failure , everything depends upon the parameters you are comparing with , the yardstick decides the failure or win

For me , could be we have been managing the project very badly , but that doesnt mean it is a failure , we are not Europeans or Americans we have our own limitation while en-dowering into a new field, but we had the courage , consistency and capacity

ISRO our current star had gone through same fate , but we have come back with colors

Failure happens only when you accept it , else it just one more learning nearing to win

 

[MilSpec]

@Oscar can you please remove the JF17 discussion here..

 

[desimorty]

The LCA program is the failure. Yes, it has had successes within that failure. But at the end, you have a jet(nothing wrong with the aerodynamics or concept of it) that has currently many shortcomings that keep it from being capable of front line service including glaring ones regarding maintenance processes.
So after a first flight in 2001 we have a jet that still has performance and manufacturing kinks to work out in its original spec which the end user doesn't really want in the first place, and the newer spec isnt to see the light of day till 2021. Well, I am very hard pressed to find ANYTHING that defines the LCA program or even the Tejas fighter(not the design or concept but as a whole product) a partial(if the complete term is too acerbic) failure.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/hal-tejas-updates-news-discussions-thread-2.351401/page-117#ixzz4DxW9pOt7

Thats pretty harsh considering the high GQSR and the industry the LCA program built. Now the Tejas is far from a failure until lets say 2020 or beyond.
I think HAL/DRDO have a winning concept in the LCA but a little too small. A problem only now being addressed in MK2 forced by F414 engines.
Now the question of large scale production and support will be interesting to see.
The Gripen is similar concept with similar performance and even a shared history with the LCA program.
However the difference was largely in the wings and % of domestication. HAL/DRDO had to deliver on bulk cost ie production and support to be domestic.
The Gripen also has better response at all altitudes but the Tejas is simpler ie the wings are a single piece, lower cost, weight.
Its going to prove its self only with large scale production until then Tejas will be overshadowed by Gripen.

Even the Northrop F-20 Tigershark, a fighter that for all reports, for all records was a great jet in terms of everything it did; is defined as a failure by aviation experts simply because it never sold and it never found a customer. Here is a case of a fighter that despite its promising design and concept; isnt ready yet due to various issues of mismanagement in the program from both the IAF and those making the aircraft.
If there is a product that does not do "as advertised" after 15 years since it first flew and based on all public and private reports wont do "as advertised" for another couple of years; then it would require a ton of salt to get any aviation expert besides those with nationalist or vested(foreign subcontractors, etc) motivations to call it a success

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/hal-tejas-updates-news-discussions-thread-2.351401/page-117#ixzz4DxZ7tVE5

I agree but the F-20 isn't the LCA. The LCA has government backing while the F-20 like the JF-17 was designed for a foreign buyer.
Tejas production is happening, regardless. Now the JF-17 however failed as soon as the PLA completely saw the first demo of the FC-1. They new the Mig-21 flaws where higher in the JF-17 compared to the J-10 which was a little bigger and a fuel guzzler and even had engine issues. However the J-10 was a completely funded by Beijing and received the best support. PLA considers the J-10 a superior aircraft to the JF-17. JF-17 production now depends on PAF budget and Chengdu production. Not a lot of interested stakes holders any more.
That being said, I think we should wait another decade to be cynical of the Tejas since production has yet to really start.
And can you blame them?
The Tejas is coming out with a solid record in the air and superior to what the threat can and will possess for a long time.
Tejas is up against what?
J-7's whose production stopped when?
J-8?
JF-17 which has inadequate engine and payload?
J-10s? The only now received AESA after a 100+ run. PLA has a bigger budget. But Tejas has better higher altitude take-off and landing performance even compared to Mig-29 and Su-30s.
Su-27/30s also a 4th generation aircraft. Still in production!
F-16 in PAF inventory, have are not a threat in the the numbers they are in!
Superhornets, Raptors all pose the greatest challenge. Still the Tejas is modest defence in comparison.
At the very least the LCA program makes the AMCA program possible.