HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]

[Superboy]

First squadron of LCA was likely to be declared fully operational in 2022

12 years after JF-17 first squadron active in February 2010? Still a long to way catch up to Pakistan and China.

 

[ni8mare]

12 years after JF-17 first squadron active in February 2010? Still a long to way catch up to Pakistan and China.

DSI boy first sqn will be raised in 2018 not 2022

 

[Superboy]

DSI boy first sqn will be raised in 2018 not 2022

It says 2022, not 2018.

 

[ni8mare]

who says? any tom d!ck harry can write as many article they can..........will not change the fact that sqn will be raised in 2018

It says 2022, not 2018.

 

[MilSpec]

Source on this pls

BTW there are so many variables involving not only just engine change but every kind of maintenance man hours (MMH) that it'll be hard to narrow it down to solid numbers to publish accurately.

Like Few things to consider such as
Aircraft you have (brand new, been around the block, reworked lately?)
Maintainers you have (newbies, oldies, trained?)
Ops you might be up to (working up, standing down. Training, front line?)
Polices in place where you are, when you are there.

All of these things will make those numbers go up or down. The single most important factor among this is the day in and day out maintenance schedule and training involved in simulated combat environment. The harder the training and more the experienced maintainers the greater the efficiency and quicker is the turn around.

LCA for god sake atm does not even have a proper manual being handed over. Let IAF buddies play with at least a squadron and let them go through every nook and corner of the bird and maintenance schedules. Let the then train themselves day in and day out and then quote a veteran maintainer speaking numbers of MMH. Even then he will quote different set of low and high as per different conditions including variables like climate which may play indeed decisive factor for eg. MMH data at Leh will be different from say Jamnagar. We can only come to a mean or median of estimates at best.

Of course most of the folks like Gripen and F18/F16 or others who have an ulterior motive and a agenda may fudge the numbers to support their claims of MMH. Its simply to make different customers/end users/airforces buy more of these birds, apply MLU's or scrap existing fleet birds and lure them to select their marketed product, etc

Ultimately its a veteran maintainer whose word holds the highest value. If he says that MMH can be improved with more simplistic configuration then IAF should convey that feedback to HAL and improve the bird in future production. If the maintainer is fine in different set of conditions then the median of MMH for different specs like oil change engine change refueling ordnance reload etc etc would be known. We can then may be compare birds within India for better understanding. But no point comparing MMH of different countries as conditions and schedule are very different.. Even a veteran maintainer would point that for sure..

Hello.

Handing over a production unit by HAL and prototype unit by ADA to IAF has some key differences.
When HAL hands over an aircraft, it establishes a maintenance and operations program with comprehensive Operating Manual (OM) which includes referenced sub OM's for faults and specific sub system retrofit and replacement, general information, rigging information, fluid and consumables specification, and sub OM's, which includes Pre flight check protocols, FCU alarms and diagnostics, spares list, to name a few; are released to respective base repair depots and squadron stations.

HAL also trains IAF technicians, for 3 - 6 months program in the actual final assembly for subject product line. The training program is very detailed and HAL also provides service technicians on site at the request of IAF during product launch.

 

[sancho]

Whats the status of FOC now?

Only BVR, refuel on air is left (major)?

- new nose
- IFR probe
- full certification of the radar
- addition of BVR missiles
- full certification of the gun
- full certification of 26° AoA
- most likely twin pylons for A2G weapons
- integration of MAWS if I'm not wrong
- reportedly a last cold weather trial

DSI boy first sqn will be raised in 2018 not 2022

Just ignore it and stick to topic.

 

[Manindra]

- new nose
- IFR probe
- full certification of the radar
- addition of BVR missiles
- full certification of the gun
- full certification of 26° AoA
- most likely twin pylons for A2G weapons
- integration of MAWS if I'm not wrong
- reportedly a last cold weather trial

• Last cold weather trail completed
• Ground gun firing video available but no other news.
• They report MAWS on their official brochure & its never reported that its not integrated

Rest status are unknown
@sancho can't they mount Python 4 on wingtip of tejas, which weights only 100 kg

 

[sancho]

can't they mount Python 4 on wingtip of tejas, which weights only 100 kg

Python V, of course they can, if they will is another issue, reports on that from Indian officials are not clear. Most likely they will remain with R73s, which are integrated, available throughout the fleet and good enough at this point. So Derby and Griffin LGBs, til Astra and an indigenous LGB will be ready.

 

[Manindra]

Python V, of course they can, if they will is another issue, reports on that from Indian officials are not clear. Most likely they will remain with R73s, which are integrated, available throughout the fleet and good enough at this point. So Derby and Griffin LGBs, til Astra and an indigenous LGB will be ready.

But Russia denied source code of R73 & its official derby would be BVRAAM & Python would be WVRAAM, & Astra would replace derby in its role but no replace of Python currently.
There are Sufficient space that they can mount Python on wing tip.

 

[sancho]

But Russia denied source code of R73 & its official derby would be BVRAAM & Python would be WVRAAM, & Astra would replace derby in its role but no replace of Python currently.
There are Sufficient space that they can mount Python on wing tip.

You are confusing R77 BVR missiles and R73 WVR missiles. R73s are already integrated to the fighter and the HMS system, while Derby is meant to be the BVR addition.
LCA won't get a wingtip station, since that requires additional changes to the wing structure, so that was ruled out. So 6 x wingstations, the external once for WVR missiles, the inner once for fueltanks, which leaves just the midwing station either for BVR missiles or bombs. That's the main drawback for LCA, that can only be countered if the internal fuel capacity can be increased to a useful extend in the MK2.

 

[Manindra]

You are confusing R77 BVR missiles and R73 WVR missiles. R73s are already integrated to the fighter and the HMS system, while Derby is meant to be the BVR addition.
LCA won't get a wingtip station, since that requires additional changes to the wing structure, so that was ruled out. So 6 x wingstations, the external once for WVR missiles, the inner once for fueltanks, which leaves just the midwing station either for BVR missiles or bombs. That's the main drawback for LCA, that can only be countered if the internal fuel capacity can be increased to a useful extend in the MK2.

LIVEFIST: LCA Tejas Sports Python & Derby

India's LCA Tejas twin-seat trainer mock-up on display at Aero India 2013 for the first time shows it alongside a Rafael Python-5 IR short-range air-to-air missile and a Rafael Derby BVRAAM. The latter is a stopgap in the event that the Astra isn't delivered on time, and also for testing requirements. Also on the mockup are the R-73 and the Astra.

Journalist Tamir Eshel over at Defense Update reports, "Assuming the Astra missile currently developed for the aircraft not meet the full flight envelope performance goals, the IAF and Indian Naval Aviation are integrating the Derby and Python 5 missiles on the aircraft, along with Russian R73 that was slated for the aircraft from the beginning, to meet the required full-operational capabilities level for the fighter. These weapons will be needed primarily to meet the Indian Navy requirement for carrier air defense, as the LCA will begin to replace the Sea Harriers that currently carry those missions with these weapons."

This Article says that python would also integrated along with R73.
In tejas we need extra Hard Point specially in strike configuration & I don't think its very hard for them for adding 100 Kg missile on wing tip, even JF 17 hold 200 kg SD10A on its wing tip.

 

[sancho]

This Article says that python would also integrated along with R73.

Which is based on an Israeli journalist, who is known to make PR for Rafael, but so far no other missile than R60 and R73 were integrated and reports from Aero India discussions with Indian pilots or officials, still say Derby only. Anyway, Python V or not doesn't make much difference anyway, I had prefered MICA IR / Maitri IR, since that would had offered WVR and BVR capability at the same time.

 

[rockstarIN]

Which is based on an Israeli journalist, who is known to make PR for Rafael, but so far no other missile than R60 and R73 were integrated and reports from Aero India discussions with Indian pilots or officials, still say Derby only. Anyway, Python V or not doesn't make much difference anyway, I had prefered MICA IR / Maitri IR, since that would had offered WVR and BVR capability at the same time.

Even Derby can also used as a WVr missile.

 

[sancho]

Even Derby can also used as a WVr missile.

No it can't, it might have some commonality with Python V, but is not geared for WVR combats. MICA missiles on the other side are identical in both versions, except for the seeker. That's why the EM version still has TVC to be highly agile in WVR combats, while the IR version still has the same range for BVR combats. This level of identical parts brings operational advantages, with the downside of higher costs. MICA IR is more costly than comparable WVR IR missiles.

 

[rockstarIN]

No it can't, it might have some commonality with Python V, but is not geared for WVR combats. MICA missiles on the other side are identical in both versions, except for the seeker. That's why the EM version still has TVC to be highly agile in WVR combats, while the IR version still has the same range for BVR combats. This level of identical parts brings operational advantages, with the downside of higher costs. MICA IR is more costly than comparable WVR IR missiles.

I do understand the uniqueness of MICA'S. But derby is derived from python 4 with an active radar seeker And unlike other bvr active radar missiles it weights only 118 k.g thus fitting at wingtips.