HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore

[Capt.Popeye]

We believe you suprrboy

Leave Super...........BOY alone.
He is just dishing out SuperCr@p here on this thread. Idleness can be quite overpowering......

 

[SQ8]

Leave Super...........BOY alone.
He is just dishing out SuperCr@p here on this thread. Idleness can be quite overpowering......

So is Mr Samurai.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

So is Mr Samurai.

Then ban both of them as well as some others from this thread. That may help.

 

[gslv mk3]

And here it is,DESERT FIGHTERS logic.

Super Mushak ,which is an upgraded SAAB Supporter with an imported engine,fuel injection system & new instruments is indigenous!!

But LCA,designed in India by Indians is not indigenous,because it uses American engines!!

What abt LCA a French design.. Israeli avionics.. Radar... Russian-Israeli weapons... American engine and still not inferior and not even operational..

So lets see,how much indigenous LCA is.

Here is a brief development history of tejas

In 1983 IAF realized the need of an indigenous combat aircraft for two primary purposes. The principal and most obvious goal was the development of a replacement aircraft for India's ageing MiG-21fighters.To better accomplish these goals, the government chose to take a different management approach, and in 1984 established the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to manage the LCA programme.
The IAF's Air Staff Requirement for the LCA were not finalised until October 1985.Project definition commenced in October 1987 and was completed in September 1988. Dassault Aviation of France was hired as a consultant to review the PD and provide advice based on its extensive aviation expertise. The PD phase is a critical early element in the aircraft design and development process because from this flow key elements of the detailed design, manufacturing approach, and maintenance requirements

Yes, Dassault was hired to review the Project definition,I hope you know what that is

The Design

Early proposals & wind tunnel models...

And finally...

The LCA design was finalised in 1990 as a small tail-less delta winged machine with relaxed static stability (RSS) to enhance manoeuvrability performance.

Various windtunnel models were tested on NALs wind tunnels-

Air intake

Aeroelastic testing

CFD Analysis by NAL.( I guess you know what CFD is ) NAL is a very capable organisation,which have even done testing & designing of Space Launchers & Reusable Launch Vehicles

So,an aircraft design developed by Indians ,using Indian infrastructure like windtunnels,paralell computing,CFD anaysis capabilities is not Indigenous??------------( point 1 )

The Airframe-Composites

The Tejas employs CFC materials for up to 45% of its airframe, including in the fuselage (doors and skins), wings (skin, spars and ribs), elevons, tailfin, rudder, air brakes and landing gear doors. Composites are used to make an aircraft both lighter and stronger at the same time compared to an all-metal design, and the LCA's percentage employment of CFCs is one of the highest among contemporary aircraft of its class. Apart from making the plane much lighter, there are also fewer joints or rivets, which increases the aircraft's reliability and lowers its susceptibility to structural fatigue cracks.

The tailfin for the LCA is a monolithic honeycomb piece, an approach which reduced its manufacturing cost by 80% compared to the customary "subtractive" or "deductive" method, whereby the shaft is carved out of a block of titanium alloy by a computerised numerically controlled machine. No other manufacturer is known to have made fins out of a single piece.

The use of composites in the LCA resulted in a 40% reduction in the total number of parts compared to using a metallic frame. Furthermore, the number of fasteners has been reduced by half in the composite structure from the 10,000 that would have been required in a metallic frame design. The composite design also helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe. Overall, the aircraft's weight is lowered by 21%.

This will take considerable expertise & infrastructure to make components like Carbon Fibre Wing,single piece tail fin etc.All of these are done Indigenously.Now that doesn't make it Indigenous?-------------------( point 2 )

 

[gslv mk3]

@DESERT FIGHTER

The Flight control system

In 1992 the LCA National Control Law (CLAW) team was set up by the National Aeronautics Laboratory to develop India's own version.The CLAW team's scientists and mathematicians were successful in developing their control laws, but could not test them since India did not possess advanced real-time ground simulators at that time.

As it was being developed, progressive elements of the coding were checked out on the "Minibird" and "Ironbird" test rigs at the ADE and HAL, respectively. A second series of inflight simulation tests of the integrated flight control software were conducted on the F-16 VISTA(Variable In-flight Stability Test Aircraft) simulator in the U.S. in July 1996, with 33 test flights being carried out. However, Lockheed Martin's involvement was terminated in 1998 as part of an embargo enacted by the U.S. in response to India's second nuclear tests in May of that year.
The NAL's CLAW team eventually managed to successfully complete integration of the flight control laws indigenously, with the FCS software performing flawlessly for over 50 hours of pilot testing on TD-1, resulting in the aircraft being cleared for flight in early 2001. The LCA's maiden flight was made by TD-1 from National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), near Bangalore, on 4 January 2001, and its first successful supersonic flight followed on 1 August 2003. TD-2 made its first flight on 6 June 2002. The automatic flight control system (AFCS) of the Tejas has been highly praised by all of its test pilots, one of whom said that he found it easier to take off with the LCA than in a Mirage 2000

​

Actuators,Sensors developed indigenously

So the Indigenous development of LCAs quadraplex redundant all axis FBW,sensors,actuators &DFCC doesnt make it indigenous?--------( point 3 )
Multi Mode Radar

HAL's Hyderabad division and the LRDE were selected to jointly lead the MMR program and the radar development effort began in 1997.

The DRDO's Centre for Airborne System (CABS) is responsible for running the test programme for the MMR. Between 1996 and 1997, CABS converted the surviving HAL/HS-748M Airborne Surveillance Post (ASP) testbed into a testbed for the avionics and radar of the LCA.

The coherent pulse-Doppler Multi Mode Radar is designed to operate equally effectively in the Air to Air and Air to Surface domains. Jointly developed as an Indian – Israeli venture, it features multi-target Air to Air Track, Hi Resolution Synthetic Aperture Mapping and specialized Air to Sea modes. The radar facilitates all weather employment of a variety of Air to Air and Air to Surface Weaponry, and is the primary targeting sensor on the Tejas.

So according to you,a Indian radar with an Israeli processor do not make LCA indigenous? -------( point 4 )

Avionics

EW suite

The electronic warfare suite is designed to enhance the survivability during deep penetration and combat. The LCA's EW suite is developed by theDefence Avionics Research Establishment(DARE) with support from the Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL). This EW suite, known as Mayavi, includes a radar warning receiver (RWR), Missile Approach Warning (MAW) and a Laser warning receiver (LWR) system, self-protection jammer, laser warning system, and chaff/flare dispenser

Open Architecture Computer

Open Architecture Computer (OAC) designed and developed by ADA, combines the functions of earlier mission computer, display processor, video switching unit and mission preparation and retrieval unit. It is designed based on open system interfaces standards, which provides interoperability, scalability, and portability. OAC drives three multi-function displays, HUD and the helmet-mounted display. This open architecture design will allow the designers to continuously adapt and upgrade Tejas to meet the challenges of modern warfare.

Cockpit

The cockpit has two 76mm×76mm colour liquid crystal multifunction displays developed by Bharat Electronics, a head up display developed by the government-owned Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO) in Chandigarh, a liquid crystal return-to-home-base panel and keyboard. The pilot also has a helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS). The hands on throttle and stick control system minimizes pilot workload and maximizes situational awareness.

So Despite all these indigenous components,LCA is not indigenous??----------- ( point 5 )

Mechanical Systems

GTSU 110

A Jet Fuel Starter has been designed and developed by Engine Division of HAL, Bangalore, especially to start the engine of Tejas on ground and in the air. Design optimisation of rotating elements and shaft has been achieved by use of 3-D modelling, dynamic and stress analysis software to reduce weight of the JFS with the safe margin for shaft critical speed and element's resonance frequency as well as to reduce vibration and noise levels.

Salient Features

Type : Free turbine type
Power output : 110 kW
Max. speed : 50500 rpm
Compressor PR : 3.5
Turbine inlet temp : 1150 K
Weight : 50 kg
Fuel : JET A-1/DERD 2494/F-35/IS 1571-85 or
JP-5

Aircraft-Mounted Accessories Gearbox

An Aircraft-Mounted Accessories Gearbox (AMAGB) has been designed and developed for TejasA. It is a lightweight, single-input, multi-output gearbox, which takes its input drive from engine through a power take off shaft at a rated speed of 16810 rpm. AMAGB has a high power-to-weight ratio and a self-contained lubrication system. It carries four aircraft accessories on its output pads, viz., two hydraulic pumps (60 kW @ 6000 rpm each), one generator (40 kW @ 7950 rpm), and one starter unit. Together, these cater to a major part of hydraulic and electrical power requirements of the Tejas and hence forms a crucial part of its secondary power system.

Salient Features
Power plant : GE-F404-F2J3/Kaveri
Power transmission : 185 kW (250 hp)
Speed : 16810 rpm
Weight : 34.4 kg
Overall dimension : 720 mm (L) x 450 mm (H) x 120 mm (W)

Carbon-Carbon Brake Discs

Carbon-Carbon Brake Discs have been designed and developed by DRDO especially for Tejas. These discs provide drag, absorb kinetic energy of the aircraft by converting it into heat and hold the aircraft stationary against engine thrust.

Landing gear for Navy & AF version

So these too,doesnt make Tejas Indigenous?---------( point 6 )

 

[gslv mk3]

@DESERT FIGHTER

So,now lets talk about Pakistani projects-JF 17,Super Mushak

point 1-How many Aircraft were designed in Pakistan,using Pakistani capability and wind tunnels?The JF 17 was designed in China,Mushak is a SAAB design.

point 2-Uses Aluminium as usual.Composites were made by China I suppose
point 3-Was FCS of JF 17 developed in Pakistan?Tested in Pakistan?Where was sensors,actuators DFCC etc were developed?
point 4-Is the radar on JF 17 indigenous?No,it was designed by China
point 5-What is the indigenous Pakistani avionics content in JF 17 now?Nothing more than this-.Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - Avionics Systems Co-produced Projects
Much of those are co-produced.The RWR,IFF,INS all are Chinese.

point 6- How many have fully Pakistani developed mechanical systems?Do JF 17 or Super Mushkak has fully Pakistani developed Landing gear?Do JF 17 have Pakistani developed JFS ? AMAGB?

This is why Indian members call LCA indigenous while JF 17 as a JV.

 

[gslv mk3]

We'll guess what new money poor people.. They went to waste.. And Dnt even get me started on the indian assembled ..German designed MB heli aka dhruv .. Whose parts are imported from 36+ countries .. Is tht the only thing you assembled ? Lol

DHRUV ADVANCED LIGHT HELICOPTER

Co developed design,tested & optimized in India

HAL Dhruv is said to share many design features that are derivative of the Kawasaki BK-117 and EC-145, which is a variant of the BK-117. HAL started development of a new 12-seat helicopter known as the ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter) in July 1984. It was designed with assistance from MBB in Germany. It followed a similar layout to that of the BK-117 although it is a larger aircraft. The Dhruv might look a bit like a BK 117 but it is quite a lot larger and has a 4 bladed not 2 bladed tail rotor.

Indo French Co developed Shakti Engine

Shakti Engine Co-development:

Indian Army and Air force wanted engines with power higher than TM333-2B2 for
Dhruv helicopters. An agreement was signed with M/s Turbomeca, France in 2002 for the
Co –development of Shakti engine ETBRDC was entrusted with the design and supply of
the oil pumps, oil cooling system, the filter unit and the external dressing. Engineers of
ETBRDC also took part in casing modelling, rotor dynamics and stress analysis at
Turbomeca, France.

Indigenous Integrated Dynamic System (IDS)

Indigenous Automatic Flight Control System

Indigenous composites

HELINA ATGM

Now when it comes to LCH

Totally Indian design

Indigenous Glass Cockpit

Indigenous Armour

Indigenous Avionics

A nose-mounted FLIR pod produced by the MoD-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd will be used for for target acquisition. The LCH’s four-axis auto-hover and digital automatic flight control system have been developed in-house, while the DRDO’s Bangalore-based Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) is developing the defensive aids suite, which includes a combined radar/laser warning system and Bharat Dynamics Ltd-developed countermeasures dispensers.

DARE has also developed in-house the digital mission computer and pylon interface boxes. The flight control actuator system has been co-developed by HAL and the UK-based APPH

Now when it comes to Light Utility Helicopter

Indian Design

Indigenous Gearbox & transmission ,Indigenous Glass cockpit,Indigenous rotors

Far more Indigenous than JF 17 or Super Mushak,aint it?

Lmao a few dollars and still tht took you decades and when we are engaged in a war? Lmao and a non existent middle class against 45% stron Pakistani Middle class ??
Lmao how's the 20 cents or something definition of above poverty line goin??

Non existant middle class??

 

[gslv mk3]

First thing, Pakistani engineers and PAF officials were present all the way through JF-17 designing program. It is a "co-design" of Pakistanis and Chinese. So we DID get alot of help in design etc. Majority of avionics are being made in Pakistan..we are integrated all of our indigenous weapon systems on JF-17 because we designed and created the software ourselves too.

secondly, indians did not make any breakthrough in design. LCA's design is nothing "new" ...No new feature was introduced.

Also, as much as you would like to "console" yourself about this indigenous design thing, in real world..it does not matter. Tejas is a failed project now because its time has gone. It adds nothing new to iaf's strength..delays of DECADES as made it a useless project. And that is pretty much agreed by senior members of your country too...

Pakistan took the more efficient,smarter move and co-designed, co-developed a fighter aircraft with its most trusted ally...creating a superior platform than tejas..and the JF-17 project has been a supreme success, Mashallah. PAF is actually surprised how brilliant the project turned out to be! It has exceeded ALL expectations. All deliveries are on time (with little hitch-ups of few months ...thats it!)

TEjas is a failed project,useless??JF 17 is superior?You were a part of JF 17 program like what you did for K 8 Karakoram The ratio of Pakistani to Chinese engineers was 20:100..
LCA is a cranked delta employing highest percentage of composites among fighters.

Majority of Avionics are designed by China & co manufactured in Pakistan-Radar,RWR,IFF,INS and the like.

 

[Last Samuri]

gslv.

You are wasting your time No Pakistani will comment on the proofs of fantastic indengious work that DRDO and HAL are achieving with the full LCA programme Dhruv helicopter & LAC choppers and the massive support infrastucutre built up these efforts these last decade.

I have just been reading the response from a indian airforce captain on the LCA project and the newly inducted tejas fighter with questions fired at him as we speak this is his response

Group Captain and LCA TP Suneet Krishna wrote:

Cockpit

Cockpit is hugely comfortable..... its truly HOTAS wherein the pilot can perform most of the functions without lifting his hands off the primary controls

Air- conditioned so you can set it as per your preference... as you do it in your car.


Systems integration
Can't answer you on specifics. But you must understand that the Tejas design is entirely in our hands. Any weapon/ system that the IAF need to integrate on this platform is very straight forward unlike on aircraft bought from outside.

The certification for IOC has been given based on the certification agency fully certified that all the teething problems are resolved and the aircraft is fully capable to enter service.....that answer's lots of your questions.

Tandem Pylons
We will integrate tandom pylons to be able to carry more number of weapons. That is one of the FOC tasks.

Passive Fuel Proportioner
Tarmak007 The aircraft has a passive fuel proportioner and it is working fine.... so we probably don't need an active fuel proportioner.

Leh Trials
The aircraft has performed well during the earlier Leh trials and we hope to further improve the capability when operating in extreme weather. We shall be conducting some tests in the coming months.

HMDS
We have a fully integrated helmet mounted display.... you only have to look at the enemy aircraft to fire off a missile.!

The HMDS is fully integrated on the Tejas. We can designate targets using the HMDS and fire weapons. It greatly improves Air to AIr and AIr to ground capabilities..!

Swing Role
Hi Navneet. Tejas is designed to be a multirole aircraft. It can easily swing between air -air to air - Gd role.

Performance
In its class, Tejas is one of the most agile fighters.... hope you get to see that during the next Air Show.

Tejas is a light and agile fighter designed for very specific roles. IAF needs a mix of fighters to fulfill different roles. Tejas will do part of that.

Relaxed static stability along with state of the art fly by wire make the Tejas hugely manoeuvrable and gives optimum performance

MK2
MK2...In design stage...

Yes , Mk2 is happening and the design is progressing well.
FOC
Everybody is working very hard to reach FOC ASAP. Of course additional capabilities will keep getting added ON as they are tested and certified.

Radar

Sir,Performance of the EL/M-2032 radar on the LCA MK.1?

>> Excellent...!

how many targets can it track and engage at a time in a look and shoot mode ??? And sir it wd be better if u kindly answer my last question about any unique capabilities ?

>> Can't give any specific numbers. But be assured it is one of the best in its class...!

EW Role
Sir,Happy Republic Day!!My question -- Is there any plan to make a fully 'EW' enabled Tejas just like Growler?
>>Yes. It will be EW enabled.

MK3
is there any plan for stealth tejas mk-3?
>> Not yet...

AOA
We will be testing the aircraft to the AOA where we can derive maximum performance from it.... pure AoA number has not much meaning.

AMCA
Thanks..That will be great..because we have to move a head of time to face challenges from both side threat..
>> AMCA will fill that need.

IFR

Will the production MK.1 really have an IFR probe as I think was reported but I'm still cynical about?

>>>Refuelling probe is only an external attachment. All production aircraft will have it.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

It already recieved IOC 2,Is in serial production & FOC would be in 2015.
Development of every 4/4.5 gen in service today took decades-Eurofighter,Rafale.But LCA design wasnt finalised till 1990 & full scale funding came only in 1993.So Its just 2 decades time-comparable to other projects.

And for the bolded part-

Are you telling me LCA is a 4.5 gen jet in the same league as Typhoon or Rafale?

I said on your own .Not like 20 Pakistani engineers working with 100 Chinese engineers and then claiming it as a Pakistani achievement

And you know that because:

a)Saw it in your crystal ball

b)indian black magic

c)Your a troll

d)All of the above

Yes it is a SAAB Safari retrofitted a new American engine,US made fuel injection system.

again wrong...

But are you talking about LCA? or the indian assembled MB helicopter I mean dhruv? or is it arjun...

Only ~40 Super Mushaks were made.And you exported 'hundreds of them?'.Mushaks made are around ~200 of this 149 are used by PAF.Again nothing even close to one hundred.And you exported license built SAAB supporters?Whoa.....

Again you are wrong SM is different than the saab safari.. both in design,payload,performance,avionics etc.. and yes hundreds of them were exported... google is your friend... Iran,Oman,KSA,Syria,Egypt,South Africa etc all operate them,,,

20 SMs were sold to KSA in 2004 alone...

Done almost 50 years back.HAL HT 2,HF 24 Marut & HJT 16 Kiran.Now comeback when you have a indigenous design

lMAO.... To burst your bubble your failed marut itself was designed by Kurt Tank...

Care to name a few?You are bragging about JF 17 like its a entirely Pakistani product.

Lmao.. nope.. its a JV... never said it was entirely Pak.

It was designed for AoA over 30 degrees.And it have potential to do 28 degree.Just that JF 17 have been tested to 26 degrees wont make JF 17 superior.

Designed for 30 deg... stuck at 22 deg... and aimed at 24 deg.. damn sir ji..

increase detection 'rage' by 80 'kilo newton'?? .The MMR has the range of more than 100 km.Ever heard of 'Radome'?

Was posting using my Iphone ..

You have posted the composite components of JF 17,nothing except radome,wing leading edges etc.Nothing when in comparison to Tejas,which has the highest percentage of composites among fighters.

And that was just a years old pic... we have a composite producing factory..

Can you prove that Y Duct used in LCA is not enough?Y Duct on LCA have been optimized in a windtunnel & is enough for LCA.

Again comprehension issues?

Prove tht DSI operational on a JF-17 is ineffective ?

Oh but DSI was first observed in the late 90s on a F-35 testbed F-16..

And here it is,DESERT FIGHTERS logic.

Super Mushak ,which is an upgraded SAAB Supporter with an imported engine,fuel injection system & new instruments is indigenous!!

But LCA,designed in India by Indians is not indigenous,because it uses American engines!!



So lets see,how much indigenous LCA is.

Here is a brief development history of tejas



Yes, Dassault was hired to review the Project definition,I hope you know what that is

The Design

Early proposals & wind tunnel models...

And finally...

Various windtunnel models were tested on NALs wind tunnels-

Air intake

Aeroelastic testing

CFD Analysis by NAL.( I guess you know what CFD is ) NAL is a very capable organisation,which have even done testing & designing of Space Launchers & Reusable Launch Vehicles

So,an aircraft design developed by Indians ,using Indian infrastructure like windtunnels,paralell computing,CFD anaysis capabilities is not Indigenous??------------( point 1 )

The Airframe-Composites



This will take considerable expertise & infrastructure to make components like Carbon Fibre Wing,single piece tail fin etc.All of these are done Indigenously.Now that doesn't make it Indigenous?-------------------( point 2 )

Same nonsense again and again... :
1)Not operational
2)Inferior in every aspect
etc etc

All facts proven...

 

[SpArK]

All segments in the aerospace industry, including civil and military aviation and space, are showing a significant level of growth because of which several companies want to be part of the growth story, he said. He said one would be surprised to know that 110 International Aerospace companies have their headquarters in India. Sekaran said liberalisation of civil aviation policies, strong domestic manufacturing base, cost advantages and well-educated talent pool were some of the factors driving the growth of India's aerospace industry.

27th January 2014

India has Immense Potential in Aerospace Industry: DRDO -The New Indian Express