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HAL offers 40 more Sukhoi-30s at one-third Rafale’s cost

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http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/05/hal-offers-40-more-sukhoi-30s-at-one.html

With the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter – the backbone of the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet – nearing the end of its production run, its manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), is taking up a case to build 40 more.

If the defence ministry accepts HAL’s proposal, the IAF’s inventory of the Russian fighter would be enhanced from the currently planned 272 to 312 Su-30s (sixteen squadrons).

With HAL offering to price the additional Su-30s at just Rs 425 crore (4.25 billion), the fighter will be barely one-third the cost of the Rafale. According to a Business Standard analysis (November 24, 2017, Clouds over fighter jet: How much did Rafale actually cost?) the IAF is paying Rs 1,125 crore (11.25 billion) per Rafale, excluding the price of weapons and logistics.

HAL chairman, T Suvarna Raju, said: “We will offer a very competitive price. Since 2010, we have been delivering the Su-30 at Rs 425 crore. We can deliver another three squadrons at that same price.”

At that price, the IAF would pay Rs 17,000 crore (170 billion) for 40 additional Su-30s.

However, that would involve buying the fighter in ready to assemble kits from Russia and putting them together in Nashik. “HAL has already absorbed the technology for building and supporting the Su-30. Now, the aim is to build those three new squadrons as quickly, and as cheaply, as possible”, said Raju.

Rationalising the proposal for 40 additional Su-30s, Raju says they are needed to carry the BrahMos air launched cruise missile (ALCM).

“We are required to modify 40-odd Sukhoi-30s to carry the BrahMos ALCM. Instead of upgrading older fighters, with a shorter residual lifespan, it would be better to build three more squadrons of Sukhois with the capability to carry BrahMos missiles”, said Raju.

The air-launched version of the BrahMos has been downsized to eight metres and 2,560 kilogrammes. Even so, mounting it on a Su-30 fighter requires reinforcing the aircraft’s underbelly and installing a heavy-duty mounting station. After years of development, the BrahMos was successfully test-fired from a Su-30 in November.

“It is easier and better to kit out new Su-30s to carry the BrahMos, rather than carrying out structural modifications to old aircraft”, said Raju.

Ministry sources indicate that a proposal to build more Su-30s would be considered positively, given the shortfall of IAF fighter squadrons.

HAL is currently building the last 23 Su-30 fighters, of the 222 it was mandated to build. The IAF’s first 50 Su-30s were built in Russia

Sukhoi-30 upgrade

Even as HAL Nashik builds the last Su-30s on order, HAL and Sukhoi are negotiating the upgrade of the Sukhoi fleet.

HAL officials say they wanted to be the lead agency, but Sukhoi has indicated it wants a 50 per cent share in this lucrative contract to upgrade the fighter’s avionics, including radar, glass cockpit displays, electronic warfare systems, warning systems and jammers.

“The IAF has already frozen its upgrade requirements. We are now waiting for the commercial proposal from Russia”, says the HAL chairman.

HAL estimates that an avionics upgrade for the Su-30 would cost upward of Rs 100 crore (one billion) per aircraft, placing the cost of upgrading 312 fighters at Rs 31,200 crore (312 billion).

HAL officials say the upgrade will have two distinct parts. In Phase I, Sukhoi would take over some IAF Su-30s and use them as prototypes to install and certify new-generation avionics and weapons upgrades. Subsequently, HAL would install those upgrades into the entire fleet.

Phase II, which would involve India-specific enhancements, would be designed and developed by HAL and also incorporated onto the fighter by HAL alone.
 
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What we need are 80 more Su30s, not 40.

40 with new engine and radar.
40 which are BrahMos capable with new engine and radar.

Then move onto upgrade entire fleet with other improvements for Super MKI.

Gaganshakti has proved that availability isn't an issue.
 
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What we need are 80 more Su30s, not 40.

40 with new engine and radar.
40 which are BrahMos capable with new engine and radar.

Then move onto upgrade entire fleet with other improvements for Super MKI.

Gaganshakti has proved that availability isn't an issue.

All the mki's,not just the new ones need serious engine and radar upgrade.The avionics are 10 years past their date already atleast.
The engine is bad,we can try for 117s of su-35 but the size is larger and fit wont be possible without the structural modifications.
As for the radar,russians have no production grade aesa at the moment,will see what they offer.The can offer irbis e pesa but that would be a bad idea.An aesa should be a priority.

Phase II, which would involve India-specific enhancements, would be designed and developed by HAL and also incorporated onto the fighter by HAL alone.

Why has HAL got to get involved in 10000 things at once??
Tejas mk1
Tejas MK2
Tejas Mk1a
AMCA
MKI

Just let russians upgrade it and u focus on task at hand which is tejas.Thats why nothing gets done.The DPSU's try to chew more than they can digest and ultimately vomit.The MoD should be smart enough to make a feasable plan.Same problem with the su-57....we want this,we want that,this is not stealthy,the avionics are bad.I mean comeon,u are want everything and want to pay nothing ??U want a jet competing with j-20,F-35 and want the price to be same as mki?
 
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All the mki's,not just the new ones need serious engine and radar upgrade.The avionics are 10 years past their date already atleast.
The engine is bad,we can try for 117s of su-35 but the size is larger and fit wont be possible without the structural modifications.
As for the radar,russians have no production grade aesa at the moment,will see what they offer.The can offer irbis e pesa but that would be a bad idea.An aesa should be a priority.
That's why I don't want 40 ordered with old engine and radar. For radar, I was thinking PESA. But you're right. Now only if AESA were available..

Like HAL says, it's better to build BrahMos Su30 from the ground up. But they'll lack some agility. So we need 40 of those plus 40 new to fill numbers. Around 350 Su30 is not too much.
 
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the fighter will be barely one-third the cost of the Rafale.

Yeah and will also have avionics that are older by a decade,RCS more than 3-4 times ,an engine that has 1/3 of the life span compared to m-88,no modern maws/rwr's.So i dont really understand this shitty comparison.
Defence journos are so ignorant that they just analyze the cost,i have not read 1 good article that discusses the price vis-a-vis the features that u are getting.
 
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Why has HAL got to get involved in 10000 things at once??
Tejas mk1
Tejas MK2
Tejas Mk1a
AMCA
MKI
To be fair, HAL is only involved with Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A at present.
Considering Su57 is stuck, they're trying to stay alive by begging for Su30 orders.
 
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That's why I don't want 40 ordered with old engine and radar. For radar, I was thinking PESA. But you're right. Now only if AESA were available..

Like HAL says, it's better to build BrahMos Su30 from the ground up. But they'll lack some agility. So we need 40 of those plus 40 new to fill numbers. Around 350 Su30 is not too much.

The MOD has no money for anything,trust me.Too much has been spent and will be spent on rafale.Rafale for all its glory(its really good,no doubt) is just too costly for india in the world of stealth.

No matter what fanboys keep on saying,when u pit it vs a j-20/f-35/su-57 it wont survive,there is no chance.It will be detected way too early to do much.So i was of the opinion that we should have just got more upgraded mki's for the time being ,maybe close to 400 and then leapt straight to the su-57.Those close weapon bays matter.......
 
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Just get more rafalec

So30mki is past and present

Rafales is the future and the present
 
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To be fair, HAL is only involved with Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A at present.
Considering Su57 is stuck, they're trying to stay alive by begging for Su30 orders.

I couldnt care less if they survive or not.
They need to just concentrate on tejas.They havent put on any notable avionic in tejas itself which is a 4 th gen jet apart from some rwr's etc.We couldnt make a pulse doppler radar(sad) and we couldnt even make the radome for the imported radar(el/m 2032) so what the hell are they smoking when they want phase 2 upgrade of su-57??
Can they do anything better than russians as of now??
 
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Just get more rafalec

So30mki is past and present

Rafales is the future and the present

Nope....its already obsolete vs any 5 th generation considering the price point.
Almost all chinese and even pakistani fighters will be sporting aesas in next 5-10 years so stealth will be very crucial at that point.
I have no problem with rafale if we had more money,we simply don't.The premise of rafale was to fight chinese and not pakistanis and for that its a bad choice simply.
 
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All the mki's,not just the new ones need serious engine and radar upgrade.The avionics are 10 years past their date already atleast.
The engine is bad,we can try for 117s of su-35 but the size is larger and fit wont be possible without the structural modifications.
As for the radar,russians have no production grade aesa at the moment,will see what they offer.The can offer irbis e pesa but that would be a bad idea.An aesa should be a priority.
Is it possible for India to pick avionics, engine, radar and other things from non Russian sources and make an upgraded super su30?
 
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Is it possible for India to pick avionics, engine, radar and other things from non Russian sources and make an upgraded super su30?

MKI already has a lot of western systems but radars in russian jets are russian as of now.I guess the russians want the upgrade contract too for the obvious reasons otherwise if the developer wants,any radar can be fitted.

Engine....no for obvious reasons as the size has to be maintained etc
 
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Nope....its already obsolete vs any 5 th generation considering the price point.
Almost all chinese and even pakistani fighters will be sporting aesas in next 5-10 years so stealth will be very crucial at that point.
I have no problem with rafale if we had more money,we simply don't.The premise of rafale was to fight chinese and not pakistanis and for that its a bad choice simply.


Only the USA has mastered fifth generation technology

And no USA fifth generation fighter will ever be joining chins or Pakistan that much is guaranteed

Today rafale is superior to the new Chinese fighters IE J20.and J10.in terms if both cock pit Tech radars weapons and engines

I would have rafale over any fighter on the planet bar raptor and f35.

As for Pakistan ever getting S fifth grn fighter I bet India gets f35 first

USA and India I'S strategic partnership thst will evolve massively over next two decades

USA will replace most of the Russian weapons in next twenty years for India both off shelf but more tot transfer of Tech
 
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