H2 And H4 are AAM Or AGM?

[Gabriel]

I do not understand what the big deal is.
Active seeker or infrared seeker the difference in the missile body is very small.

 

[muse]

The big dealk is the tech know how

 

[jawadqamar]

Did they test the weapon over the sea in South Africa or in Pakistan?
If they did test a BVRAAM, where is the proof that H-2 is this BVRAAM?

hj786 missile was test in Pakistan. There is no definitive prove of h-2 being a BVRAAM just like there is no prove of it being PGM either.

And that why this discussion started in first place as you are demanded final prove, so why not you provide it and end this discussion?? I will be waiting for you prove friend

Why were radars first put in aircraft? To find enemy aircraft. Why are radars upgraded? To improve the ability to find enemy aircraft.

Yes search is basic function of the radar but that’s not only reason a country like Pakistan will make investments in its fighter jet. Main reason of upgrade was to give it capability to be capable of not only search but also target if required as without second capability first has little value. You just can’t ask a Mirage-III pilots that you have detected a Indian intruder very good work now return to base and let the intruder complete its mission

ROSE II/III use FLIR for night-time operations, low-level flying (there is a video where you can clearly see a small monitor showing the FLIR image just under the HUD), not just for targeting. I have also read the ROSE Mirage FLIRs have laser range-finders, perhaps they are simply for low-level flying and range finding, not targeting. Any proof that the FLIR is required for targeting?

As far as the targeting capability and PGM is concerned please Google for the targeting pods and their use for PGM. Rose-II/III all use the similar capability but internally build.

PAF officials compare the seeker of H-4 and H-2 with the seekers of AA-12, Python 4, etc. Where do PAF officials call it a BVR missile?

Now no where PAF officials compare the H-2 with the IR guidance only H-4 is said to have the IR guidance and I have said before that in my previous post and it’s from the news item that I posted form dawn and form the Pakistani source link you posted but you are again and again saying same thing please refer us where it is said that H-2 uses the IR guidance system?

The South African PGMs can also be fitted with radar seekers according to their website, similar to the R-77/AA-12. Didn't the PAF officials compare the seekers and not the missiles?

Again you are making an argument that simply have no grounds at all non of the SA PGM is using the radar seekers currently and only MMW seekers are offered if customer wishes the capability but never tested such capacity

Your argument is lousy because you keep saying "PAF needed a BVRAAM so H-2 must be a BVRAAM," even though according to the newspaper they said it is a PGM.

I am saying that my argument is much more based on the facts then your base less arguments that is using the pathetic reports by ignorant journalist that cant differentiate between the BVRAAM and BVR bombs (infect they are the fist to invent the term).but then you would not understand given the level of argument you are producing so far and I wish you good luck with your views

On the other hand, H-2 being a BVRAAM makes no sense at all. Why spend so much money developing a new BVRAAM just for two squadrons of 30-40 year old Mirage III, then tell the Chinese you want SD-10 on the JF-17

Ahh man you really need to start looking into the realty and facts before you start tying. Just see the time table of Rose-I upgrade and news of tests conducted by the PAF before crying about the SD-10 and JF-17. Please do some search man

"Grifo M3 is BVRAAM capable so H-2 must be a BVRAAM" - even though you admit PAF had no decent airborne radars at the time and needed the Grifo M3 just for patrolling.

Now where did I said that PAF had no decent radar so they needed GrifoM3? Stop foolish argument which has no basis at all. Infact, first you raise the point that PAF wanted the MICA for Mirages and later on decided not to go far (it also shows that PAF got the BackUp plan in form of T- Dater and once they go the TOT offer for the R-Dater they decided in favor of local BVRAAM instead of importing one.) It looks to me that you are in hurry to post whatever come to you mind regardless of the fact that might me wrong. Check the facts before saying something; it is you who said that

Firstly, one of the main reasons ROSE I have good radars is PAF had no fighters with radars good enough for patrolling - only F-16, and those had to be grounded due to lack of spare parts.

You are really confused here

"PAF tested missiles over the sea in South Africa, so H-2 must be a BVRAAM" - even though you don't know any of the details.

And you even did not knew where it actually took place right I should be believing you

The only difference between ROSE I and ROSE II/III is that the latter have FLIR instead of radar.

And that is not just for fun but because of different roles of two upgrades were planned to have

Where do PAF officials call it a BVR missile?

It is a step towards adding the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles to our arsenal for defensive purposes and to address the strategic imbalance in the region," Pakistan daily Dawn quoted PAF officials as saying. Now this statement is extremely important as this is in quoting PAF officials and it doesn’t have a blend of super journalism by these journalists. It clearly states Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles not Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Bombs as described by them

I hope that you can read the red bold part this time

Is H-2 radar guided or IR guided? Show me an IR guided air-to-air missile with a range of 60 km?

Even though I have already said that no where news refer to H-2 as IR guided but if you would have googled you would have known that R-27 BVRAAM is available with IR guidance as is the Mica BVRAAM other then the R-77 that was also offered to potential customers with IR guidance few years back

well I can say for sure that Pakistan hasn't got the technology to domestically produce Seekers however it may be able to modify or optimise the existing seeker technology. When talking about solid state electronics Pakistan is way way too behind__SADLY!!

My friend Pakistan was able to produce the radar based terminal guidance for its shaheen series of ballistic missile in mid 1990s so what’s the problem with producing the radar seekers with TOT form SA in late 1990s or early 2000??? Remember that even Chinese are only able to produce the radar based terminal guidance for their missiles just couple of years ago.You see biggest problem is that people think that just because information is not released on the internet like Indians that means that no capability exists

Pshamim sir Thank you very much for you r positive contribution to this thread and helping all of us in this confusing issue

 

[hj786]

And that why this discussion started in first place as you are demanded final prove, so why not you provide it and end this discussion?? I will be waiting for you prove friend

PAF adds new bombs to its arsenal -DAWN - Top Stories; December 18, 2003

ISLAMABAD, Dec 17: Pakistan Air Force has integrated the H-4 out-of-sight target bombs in its arsenal of fighter aircraft, official sources said.

The incorporation of H-4 bombs have added to the capability of the PAF to hit out-of-sight targets from a distance of up to 120 kilometres to evade enemy radars during air strikes. A lighter version of the bomb, H-2 model, can hit the out-of-sight targets from a range of up to 60 kilometres.

As far as the targeting capability and PGM is concerned please Google for the targeting pods and their use for PGM. Rose-II/III all use the similar capability but internally build.

http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/mirageupgrade.html

...twenty Mirage Vs would be modernized to the ROSE-II standards (ROSE-II modification is the same as ROSE-I, except the Griffo-M radar is replaced by FLIR....

ROSE (Retrofit of Strike Element) Upgrade program completed... The avionics upgrade included... an IRCCD Forward Looking Infra Red navigation sensor for reconnaissance applications - laser rangefinder - [/B]air data sensors and computer - radar altimeter, and high capacity data transfer unit . In the French upgrade, GEC head-up display and HOTAS similar to Mirage-2000 is used. One of the French Mirages serial number 93.725 was displayed at the 1999 Paris Air Show showed FLIR of French origin.
...
Smart weapons capabilities may be further exploited by the navigation/targeting pod shown SAGEM's Mirage 5F at Le Bourget....Although identified as the DART pod, this appears identical to Rafael's LITENING pod. Other Mirage 5F upgrades included an integrated electronic warfare suite, on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS), and single point pressure refueling... At the time Pakistan was interested in South African Darter series of missiles...

Rafael LITENING (aka DART) targeting pod:

Mirage ROSE II/III FLIR pod:

Now no where PAF officials compare the H-2 with the IR guidance only H-4 is said to have the IR guidance and I have said before that in my previous post and it’s from the news item that I posted form dawn and form the Pakistani source link you posted but you are again and again saying same thing please refer us where it is said that H-2 uses the IR guidance system?

PAF adds new bombs to its arsenal -DAWN - Top Stories; December 18, 2003

A lighter version of the bomb, H-2 model, can hit the out-of-sight targets from a range of up to 60 kilometres....
The H-4 infrared device is said to be comparable to that of the AA11, AA12 and Python 4 in the Indian arsenal.

Again you are making an argument that simply have no grounds at all non of the SA PGM is using the radar seekers currently and only MMW seekers are offered if customer wishes the capability but never tested such capacity

http://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/weapons/59/raptor-1-glide-bomb-h-2

Raptor 1 Glide Bomb (H-2)

Description:

In later versions, navigation can be autonomous, by waypoint or by using GPS-assisted inertial navigation. The weapon is usually fitted with a passive TV seeker. It can be upgraded to include an imaging infra red or radar seeker. The weapon is accurate to within 3m CEP. In SAAF service it is either fitted with a fragmentation or penetration warhead.

Now where did I said that PAF had no decent radar so they needed GrifoM3? Stop foolish argument which has no basis at all.

Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.

It is a step towards adding the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles to our arsenal for defensive purposes and to address the strategic imbalance in the region," Pakistan daily Dawn quoted PAF officials as saying. Now this statement is extremely important as this is in quoting PAF officials and it doesn’t have a blend of super journalism by these journalists.

It clearly states Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles not Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Bombs as described by them
I hope that you can read the red bold part this time

 

[jawadqamar]

Still you are failing to provide source that says H-2 Uses a IR all you are is a source that says that H-4 with IR not H-2

Secondly please explain how do you defend the sources’ credibility that compare H-2 and H-4 PGMs with AA-11, AA-12 and Python 4? if you can answer this it will end the debate my friend

The source you provide for the Raptor 1says that it can be but it was never done as I said earlier. It is just a marketing statement to get the customer and ask him to fund rather than having finished product

About the last part yes of course it was a step toward having capability not the end because R-Darter is not the best of BVRAAM due to its shorter range. How would you defend the part It is a step towards adding the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles to our arsenal for defensive purposes

PGM strikes will be offensive in nature even if these are to support the defensive forces on the other hand BVRAAM will be used in self defense

 

[jawadqamar]

PAF’s officials are saying Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles not Beyond Visual Range (BVR) bombs like these idiots journalist are saying

 

[jawadqamar]

Why even mention the name of South African T-Darter BVR missiles in news if Both H-2 and H-4 are PGMs????

 

[pshamim]

I really do not the contentious discussion above.

PAF already has a BVRAAM
PAF also has mission specific PGMs as well like Graphite bombs that many may not have even heard of.

Reports in Pakistani newspaper are tainted or written by journalists who have no knowledge. Basing your response on these reports are then as bad and misleading as the actual article is.

There has been information that PAF has already used PGM in Swat.

 

[jawadqamar]

PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar

Grifo M3 provides capability similar to the APG-66 of PAF’s F-16 and Both the weakness of endurance and agility still are there even with upgrade . Even though PAF was low on spare parts Kargil situation demanded few sorties but those were not conducted in the war zone as PAF was not ready to engage in active combat because it had no answer to IAF’s BVR capability at that time

 

[jawadqamar]

Sir I do agree with your views here

Just another question for you will PAF/PA/ look for the SL-SAM version for T-Darter ? like Israeli SL-Derby (isreali version of R-Darter) which under name of Spyder SAM is supplied to IAF

 

[pshamim]

Another example of a small diameter PGM in PAF. I really want an end of speculation whether Pakistan has PGM. PAF has many more that are rightfullu cloacked in secrecy.

This particular example can be guided by 4 multiple guided Joint Guidance system which include Laser, GPS, Inertia, two color infra red

One of the latest PAF LGBs..

 

[jawadqamar]

IF you can give us a hint with which air craft these are being used? Mirage-III/V Rose-series??

 

[pshamim]

IF you can give us a hint with which air craft these are being used? Mirage-III/V Rose-series??

Man you guys are percistent.

It was tested on JF-17 as well.

China hasd offered a package of SD-10, LS-6, and LT-2 The last two can transform any dumb bombs into a guided PGM. LS-6 is reported to have a 60km range, while LT-2 is a Laser guided bomb. Problem with a laser guided bomb is that it needs a clear field of view and no hinderence like bad weather or clouds.

 

[fhassan]

Man you guys are percistent.

Salaam

If PAF has decided to keep all this stuff secret, i think brother you should not divulge this information on an internet forum.

 

[pshamim]

Salaam

If PAF has decided to keep all this stuff secret, i think brother you should not divulge this information on an internet forum.

Walekum assalam Hassan Saheb,
Thanks for the priceless advise. I have already been following it. Some of the info is still secret but rest is well known and public.