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Greek crisis is nothing compared to China

Since u are in india that's why asked. Glad you werent in that shitty role :D



Ofcourse there will be ventures which will close down. But this mad scramble cannot be called a bubble because there will surely be a bunch of successful global ventures which will come out unscathed at the other end.

It is all about category creation and changing consumer behavior as of now. Noone is competing much on poaching consumers from one another.
Flipkart? really? Bro I know financials are not available because its not listed but it literally is poison right now among investors. It's just that PE firms have invested so much into it that they have to keep funding to maintain the illusion of potential. Frankly speaking inventory model was never going to work in India. Snapdeal was a better bet financially due to the marketplace model which even flipkart has adapted as of late.



Amazon? I am still not convinced on the benefit of anyone investing in Amazon, I will wait for next e-commerce crash in USA before investing, P/E ratios are still very high and their recent bets on hardware have been a massive loss resulting billions of dollars of write-offs

@Providence - Your views?

Actually that's the problem with financial services- you have to have a return within the horizon. I'm long on Flipkart (more like value investing). 7% growth in economy with a top 2 box consideration set brand in ecommerce. Millions of additional customers in the next few years, rising urbanization will make it only bigger. I look at it like 'Kellogg'. Sure the 1st 10 years they won't make any money, but if they manage to get even a 10th of 1.2 Billion people to switch their breakfast habits, boy have they made it (since I hog south Indian bf I hope they never succeed :) )

And Spectre @illusion8 , there may be only 40 VCs but it already is sending money to a lot of lame ideas too.

If it was as simple as printing more money or writing off debt, then wouldn't you have completed all our infrastructure needs by printing more money or writing off debts?

The Chinese collupse is doing the rounds for some years because it is supposed to happen, instead of going for a soft landing China is trying to fight it by giving massive economic stimulus for last few years, which is complicating the situation further.

Besides I believe there is a lot of cartelized behavior in Indian real estate. They'll just stall all their projects together and put on 'go - slow' mode if they see falling demand.

Flipkart? really? Bro I know financials are not available because its not listed but it literally is poison right now among investors. It's just that PE firms have invested so much into it that they have to keep funding to maintain the illusion of potential. Frankly speaking inventory model was never going to work in India. Snapdeal was a better bet financially due to the marketplace model which even flipkart has adapted as of late.



Amazon? I am still not convinced on the benefit of anyone investing in Amazon, I will wait for next e-commerce crash in USA before investing, P/E ratios are still very high and their recent bets on hardware have been a massive loss resulting billions of dollars of write-offs

@Providence - Your views?


Amazon India clocked $ 1 Bn incremental sales in 2 years. Launch to Bn dollar company in 2 years.
 
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chinese governance and style of control over their industries isn't comparable to other market economies. They can print more currency because their manufacturing base is huge. They can lend to their own without consideration of default because the money remains in the CCP's system.

There might be some truth to the turnaround in their economic forecasts - but the capability to recover back from any downturn is also huge because they aren't really dependent much on external forces.

They are so much dependent upon external factors, they are an outsourcing economy for god's sake! First, money cannot be printed just like that, it will only cause inflation and loss of purchasing power of money, that instead of solving the problem will complicate it further. This applies to any country!
Second, apart from making them a Zimbabwe, such a move will make manufacturing unviable in China, forcing manufacturers to look for other destinations and causing more unemployment, more overcapacity and more unused infrastructure, leading to further NPAs! In fact, some of these are already happening. For example, among many other things, the decreased demand in western countries after 2008 has caused overcapacity in Chinese manufacturing and increased bad debt.

China is into an interesting (and terrible) economic paradox, and the more they are trying out different options to get out of it, they more they are going deeper into it. It's interesting, that's why I am following it for some years. But I don't think they are getting out of it without bleeding! The more they delay the inevitable, the more they bleed, it was better for them to face the problem head on some years back and get done with it.
 
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They are so much dependent upon external factors, they are an outsourcing economy for god's sake! First, money cannot be printed just like that, it will only cause inflation and loss of purchasing power of money, that instead of solving the problem will complicate it further. This applies to any country!
Second, apart from making them a Zimbabwe, such a move will make manufacturing unviable in China, forcing manufacturers to look for other destinations and causing more unemployment, more overcapacity and more unused infrastructure, leading to further NPAs! In fact, some of these are already happening. For example, among many other things, the decreased demand in western countries after 2008 has caused overcapacity in Chinese manufacturing and increased bad debt.

China is into an interesting (and terrible) economic paradox, and the more they are trying out different options to get out of it, they more they are going deeper into it. It's interesting, that's why I am following it for some years. But I don't think they are getting out of it without bleeding! The more they delay the inevitable, the more they bleed, it was better for them to face the problem head on some years back and get done with it.

I agree to what you say - my take on dependence was specific to chinese infra and chinese manufacturing.
 
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it is like 100 meter world record holder sprinter caught for steroids :D
 
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China's 'ghost' and abandoned cities. Where have all the people gone? They probably weren't there to begin with. Billions of dollars worth of infrastructure, but no takers....Has the housing bubble finally burst?

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:flame:!!!!PaintBall ZOMBIE LAND!!!!:flame:

:woot::yahoo::raise:

:sniper::guns:


Who wants to be the zombies?


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@Armstrong , @asena_great , @xenon54 , @Gufi , @Akheilos , @Hakan , @Hiptullha , @Imran Khan , @Neptune , @Sinan, @SOHEIL , @Targon , @what , and others....

Lets do this :fans:
 
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The stock market is 1/3 of GDP valuation in China, while it is over 100% GDP valuation in the US.

Even a total stock market collapse, while catastrophic, would not be life threatening to the economy, but the same can't be said of other economies out there.
 
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anyone else think this was a inside job? i'm sure a group of rich Chinese made a profit out of this while the lowly peasant lost big.

The total investment of "the lowly peasants" consists of only 7.5% of the value in Chinese stock market. You don't go through the effort and risk getting a 20 year prison sentence for a <7.5% profit margin.
 
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The total investment of "the lowly peasants" consists of only 7.5% of the value in Chinese stock market. You don't go through the effort and risk getting a 20 year prison sentence for a <7.5% profit margin.


more info on this??

I read about citizens going into huge debt to bet on the stock market.
 
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more info on this??

I read about citizens going into huge debt to bet on the stock market.

The document is titled "上海证券市场投资者结构与行为报告(2013)"

Page 2, section 2 states that while private accounts for the ordinary citizens account for 93.2% of the accounts in the market. Their total value is about 7.5% of the total market value. The Chinese stock market is divided into the following holders:

General organizations (64.9% of the value)
Individuals (7.5% of the value)
Brokers (5.8% of the value)
Miscellaneous

Now individual accounts do account for a larger share of the pie in term of trading. This is because unlike general organization, the individual accounts are much more volatile.

In general, less than 5% of the private savings in China went into the stock market. While I don't doubt there exists unique individuals who went into large debt to play stocks, the cases are exceedingly rare. If you think about it, It would make logical sense. The Chinese culture is well known for high saving and conservative spending. While the Chinese are not lacking in motivation in making additional cash, their spending habit simply means they will invest much less of their savings than their American counterpart.

Would you mind link to articles that states Chinese families are going into huge debt to play stocks? Because this is not the first time Chinese stock market took such a plunge. There isn't any news on families went bankrupt because of the plunge in 2007, so logically, it wouldn't do it this time either since it is a lesser plunge than the one in 2007.
 
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The stock market is 1/3 of GDP valuation in China, while it is over 100% GDP valuation in the US.

Even a total stock market collapse, while catastrophic, would not be life threatening to the economy, but the same can't be said of other economies out there.

Stock market collapse because of weak economic fundamentals, not the opposite. This incident may very well trigger a chain reaction in the bloated real estate sector followed by a debt crisis in their banking system.
 
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Greece - What You Are Not Being Told by the Media

According to mainstream media, the current economic crisis in Greece is due to the government spending too much money on its people that it went broke. This claim however, is a lie. It was the banks that wrecked the country so oligarchs and international corporations could benefit.
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ByChris Kanthan/nationofchange.org
Every single mainstream media has the following narrative for the economic crisis in Greece: the government spent too much money and went broke; the generous banks gave them money, but Greece still can’t pay the bills because it mismanaged the money that was given. It sounds quite reasonable, right?

Except that it is a big fat lie … not only about Greece, but about other European countries such as Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland who are all experiencing various degrees of austerity. It was also the same big, fat lie that was used by banks and corporations to exploit many Latin American, Asian and African countries for many decades.

Greece did not fail on its own. It was made to fail.

In summary, the banks wrecked the Greek government and deliberately pushed it into unsustainable debt so that oligarchs and international corporations can profit from the ensuing chaos and misery.

If you are a fan of mafia movies, you know how the mafia would take over a popular restaurant. First, they would do something to disrupt the business – stage a murder at the restaurant or start a fire. When the business starts to suffer, the Godfather would generously offer some money as a token of friendship. In return, Greasy Thumb takes over the restaurant’s accounting, Big Joey is put in charge of procurement, and so on. Needless to say, it’s a journey down a spiral of misery for the owner who will soon be broke and, if lucky, alive.

Now, let’s map the mafia story to international finance in four stages.

Stage 1: The first and foremost reason that Greece got into trouble was the “Great Financial Crisis” of 2008 that was the brainchild of Wall Street and international bankers. If you remember, banks came up with an awesome idea of giving subprime mortgages to anyone who can fog a mirror. They then packaged up all these ticking financial bombs and sold them as “mortgage-backed securities” at a huge profit to various financial entities in countries around the world.

A big enabler of this criminal activity was another branch of the banking system, the group of rating agencies – S&P, Fitch and Moody’s – who gave stellar ratings to these destined-to-fail financial products. Unscrupulous politicians such as Tony Blair got paid by Big Banks to peddle these dangerous securities to pension funds and municipalities and countries around Europe. Banks and Wall Street gurus made hundreds of billions of dollars in this scheme.

But this was just Stage 1 of their enormous scam. There was much more profit to be made in the next three stages!

Stage 2 is when the financial time bombs exploded. Commercial and investment banks around the world started collapsing in a matter of weeks. Governments at local and regional level saw their investments and assets evaporate. Chaos everywhere!

Vultures like Goldman Sachs and other big banks profited enormously in three ways: one, they could buy other banks such as Lehman brothers and Washington Mutual for pennies on the dollar. Second, more heinously, Goldman Sachs and insiders such as John Paulson (who recently donated $400 million to Harvard) had made bets that these securities would blow up. Paulson made billions, and the media celebrated his acumen. (For an analogy, imagine the terrorists betting on 9/11 and profiting from it.) Third, to scrub salt in the wound, the big banks demanded a bailout from the very citizens whose lives the bankers had ruined! Bankers have chutzpah. In the U.S., they got hundreds of billions of dollars from the taxpayers and trillions from the Federal Reserve Bank which is nothing but a front group for the bankers.

In Greece, the domestic banks got more than $30 billion of bailout from the Greek people. Let that sink in for a moment – the supposedly irresponsible Greek government had to bail out the hardcore capitalist bankers.

Stage 3 is when the banks force the government to accept massive debts. For a biology metaphor, consider a virus or a bacteria. All of them have unique strategies to weaken the immune system of the host. One of the proven techniques used by the parasitic international bankers is to downgrade the bonds of a country. And that’s exactly what the bankers did, starting at the end of 2009. This immediately makes the interest rates (“yields”) on the bonds go up, making it more and more expensive for the country to borrow money or even just roll over the existing bonds.

From 2009 to mid-2010, the yields on 10-year Greek bonds almost tripled! This cruel financial assault brought the Greek government to its knees, and the banksters won their first debt deal of a whopping 110 billion Euros.

The banks also control the politics of nations. In 2011, when the Greek prime minister refused to accept a second massive bailout, the banks forced him out of the office and immediately replaced him with the Vice President of ECB (European Central Bank)! No elections needed. Screw democracy. And what would this new guy do? Sign on the dotted line of every paperwork that the bankers bring in.

(By the way, the very next day, the exact same thing happened in Italy where the Prime Minister resigned, only to be replaced by a banker/economist puppet. Ten days later, Spain had a premature election where a banker puppet won the election).

The puppet masters had the best month ever in November 2011.

Few months later, in 2012, the exact bond market manipulation was used when the banksters turned up the Greek bonds’ yields to 50%!!! This financial terrorism immediately had the desired effect: The Greek parliament agreed to a second massive bailout, even larger than the first one.

Now, here is another fact that most people don’t understand. The loans are not just simple loans like you would get from a credit card or a bank. These are loans come with very special strings attached that demand privatization of a country’s assets. If you have seen Godfather III, you would remember Hyman Roth, the investor who was carving up Cuba among his friends. Replace Hyman Roth with Goldman Sachs or IMF (International Monetary Fund) or ECB, and you get the picture.

Stage 4: Now, the rape and humiliation of a nation begin under the name of “austerity” or “structural reforms.” For the debt that was forced upon it, Greece had to sell many of its profitable assets to oligarchs and international corporations. And privatizations are ruthless, involving everything and anything that is profitable. In Greece, privatization included water, electricity, post offices, airport services, national banks, telecommunication, port authorities (which is huge in a country that is a world leader in shipping) etc. Of course, the ever-manipulative bankers always demand immediate privatization of all media which means that the country gets photogenic TV anchors who spew establishment propaganda every day and tell the people that crooked and greedy banksters are saviors; and slavery under austerity is so much better than the alternative.

In addition to that, the banker tyrants also get to dictate every single line item in the government’s budget. Want to cut military spending? NO! Want to raise tax on the oligarchs or big corporations? NO! Such micro-management is non-existent in any other creditor-debtor relationship.

So what happens after privatization and despotism under bankers? Of course, the government’s revenue goes down and the debt increases further. How do you “fix” that? Of course, cut spending! Lay off public workers, cut minimum wage, cut pensions (same as our social security), cut public services, and raise taxes on things that would affect the 99% but not the 1%. For example, pension has been cut in half and sales tax increase to more than 20%. All these measures have resulted in Greece going through a financial calamity that is worse than the Great Depression of the U.S. in the 1930s.

After all this, what is the solution proposed by the heartless bankers? Higher taxes! More cuts to the pension! It takes a special kind of a psychopath to put a country through austerity, an economic holocaust.

If every Greek person had known the truth about austerity, they wouldn’t have fallen for this. Same goes for Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland and other countries going through austerity. The sad aspect of all this is that these are not unique strategies. Since World War II, these predatory practices have been used countless times by the IMF and the World Bank in Latin America, Asia, and Africa.

This is the essence of the New World Order — a world owned by a handful of corporations and banks; a world that is full of obedient, powerless debt serfs.

So, it’s time for the proud people of Greece to rise up like Zeus and say NO (“OXI” in Greece) to the greedy puppet masters, unpatriotic oligarchs, parasitic bankers and corrupt politicians.

Dear Greece, know that the world is praying for you and rooting for you. This weekend, vote NO to austerity. Say YES to freedom, independence, self-government, sovereignty, and democracy. Go to the polls this weekend and give a resounding, clear victory for the 99% in Greece, Europe, and the entire western world.
 
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Stock market collapse because of weak economic fundamentals, not the opposite. This incident may very well trigger a chain reaction in the bloated real estate sector followed by a debt crisis in their banking system.

bloated real estate sector? lol... you're good at throwing around buzzwords, but not much else. The real estate sector is almost completely insulated from the stock market, in fact, because there is little leverage in the real estate sector. Down payments are in the 20-50% range, as opposed to 0% in the 2008 crisis.
 
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