Govt. is facing loss of Rs. 2.63 on every single unit of electricity | Information Minister Fawad Ch

[Lincoln]

For gods sake, nobody is denying building infrastructure is good for a country. The question is the ways and means. Which word are you living in btw when you say bidding and price negotiation. Do you even understand how CPEC works? Such juvenile,illogical and incoherent statements are which are contrary to facts. There was no bidding in CPEC that was the beauty of it. The Chinese never allowed open tendering where even Pakistani companies could participate, let alone from any other part of the world. Therefore there no price discovery which took place in the first place. And in the absence of any 'real' and 'effective' price discovery mechanism where is the question of any relevant price negotiation taking place. Do study the subject before writing two lines in English.

You accepted these projects cause no one else was ready to invest in Pakistan. Look at your FDI figures for the last decade and then try to enter any discussion. So the Chinese came, but with the condition that only Chinese companies will participate and you accepted it. Thats fait accompli. They charged more cause there was no competition. Hence no 'real' bidding and no price discovery. That is why as was reported in article after article, the ROI on these projects is much much higher than any other such projects around the world. And when ROIs are this high, the tariff will be higher.This is not due to corruption but more to do with circumstances in which these agreements were executed. Extreme load shedding. So the electricity being produced is expensive.

But what has the PTI done. It has put a question mark on CPEC as it exists today. The CPEC phase 1 was about setting up power plants and land route. The major ( >90%) investment has been made in these early harvest power projects. Do some research before regurgitating same old arguments without any basis or application to the subject at hand. Use google chacha but atleast do some research before responding to issues.
.

Now, I ask again. iWhy are the details of this 'Game Changer Project being kept hidden from the Public? PTI's manifesto said they willl make public all CPEC agreement,What happened to that? Where the Chinese so naive as to allow corruption in their premiere belt and road project and turn a blind eye? All the CPEC projects are being executed by Chinese companies and their workforce, where they therefore also not involved in corruption? Is this corruption or political witch hunting? Surely the Chinese will be very uncomfortable with the turn of events today!!

First,

Whether or not there was bidding, that is your opinion, on paper there was bidding. And that is exactly the kind of stuff NAB is investigating regarding specific Energy projects undertaken in Punjab by Private consortia.

Stop claiming things as facts for which you have no evidence. Do study how to present and prove stuff as facts.

Second,

Same thing again, it is another opinion piece of yours. Not a fact. Whether there was bidding or not, we don't know, on paper at least there was. So if you wish to present your narrative as a fact, bring evidence. The reason why a NAB inquiry is taking place on PRIVATE CONSORTIA Project in PUNJAB is because the Government feels there has been mishandling by PUNJAB GOVERNMENT.

What I am stating is not an opinion, it is the very same narrative PTI Government projected in the very video you posted. Furthermore, he didn't state that it is high for ALL energy based projects, he very specifically quoted, go see it again. The reason it is also baseless to say that ALL energy based projects are same is because for each project, the loan, interest, dealing, bidding and negotiation is different.

Third,

Instead of telling me off to do research, consider being more objective and kind in your approach. For your kind information sir, for Early Harvest approximately $28 billion have been allocated of which $6 billion is for transport related infrastructure, kindly do the maths of 28/60 x 100 and let me know if it comes to be >90%.

Fourth,

Why are details being kept hidden, I don't know. But if both Governments, the Pakistan-based Economy Observatory Organizations as well as the Military are content with it, for me that is highly reliable, because the previous and current Governments are huge rivals of each other. The previous Government has forced bad image of Military and also because we have had three finance ministers now, the latter of PMLN Government after Ishaq Dar being good, and none of them cited CPEC loans as an issue.

Also, it is possible the Private consortia were involved in the corruption, that's what NAB is investigating for specific and quoted Energy Projects.

Lastly,

Like you wish to imply that PTI Government is extremely shady regarding CPEC... well PTI wouldn't put in NAB inquiry if they thought that it's not our End whose at fault for these specific Energy Projects. So, stop pretending your narrative matches theirs, it does not. PTI wants to expand CPEC in fact.


Also, as a kind request, don't try to call me out as dumb who hasn't done research whilst you attempt to push opinion as fact. If you wish to debate and challenge, that is all good with me but being rude wont make your point any more pretty. Thanks.

 

[hussain0216]

True that, everybody needs infrastructure, power plants, ports, rail way line's, roads but the question is at what cost? From when does Pakistan expect to reap benefits of CPEC and how. Also the said infrastructure will have to be sustainable of else in a couple of decades the said infrastructure will be a loss making entity, plus you will have the liability of billions of dollars of loan around your neck. As you yourself mentioned corruption, need for reform, structural changes etc, so if the CPEC flops for Pakistan (it will definitely succeed for China with interest on loans and big market like Pakistan to flood their goods) Pakistan will be in a tight spot.

You need to have infrastructure built and in place in order to utilise it and take advantage of it

so far so Good, CPEC provides everything and more

china as a business minded state, will of course try to negotiate in its own interest, again nothing wrong with that

The problem isnt here


Pakistan as a 200 million market is UNDERDEVELOPED
We have scope for development and profit in every single economic sphere

Like all developing countries in similar circumstances, high digit growth is a certainty as long as the right economic policies are in place, corruption is shackled, and home industry is supported

Pakistan debt is not big once you consider that we are a underdeveloped economy with a large population where simple gdp growth and economic and tax reform will bring massive benefits that will easily support any debt repayments


The problem isnt this

The problem is our government's thus far are inept and corrupt
@Tameem @Champion_Usmani @Kabira and

They spend their time in power not seeing the big picture, having no vision, making no reform, looking to utilise the corrupt system to further personal goals and wealth.
Nepotism and party support is rampant


We cant point fingers at others
Not at China
Not at CPEC

we need reform, we need IMF funding in the meantime

 

[zip]

It looks like political witch hunting ,to prove previous govt is involved in corruption they are OK to risk whole project ..Their success of campaign against corruption made them blind to realise they have a show to run and this project and a good relationship with Chinese is necessary for the time being..If they really wanted to improve the agreement they would have done it subtler way taking china in to confidence , but that won't earn Brownie points against previous govt ..Good example of Party interest taking precedence over national interest..

 

[hussain0216]

It looks like political witch hunting ,to prove previous govt is involved in corruption they are OK to risk whole project ..Their success of campaign against corruption made them blind to realise they have a show to run and this project and a good relationship with Chinese is necessary for the time being..If they really wanted to improve the agreement they would have done it subtler way taking in to confidence Chinese ,, but that won't earn Brownie points against previous govt ..Good example of Party interest taking precedence over national interest..

We need an end to corruption

We cant take the nicely nicely approach

we need to stamp it out, take the consequences in the meantime then build on a better platform

 

[zip]

We need an end to corruption

We cant take the nicely nicely approach

we need to stamp it out, take the consequences in the meantime then build on a better platform

That will be great if this is driving force behind these decisions but...

 

[Lincoln]

No it is not my opinion.It is a fact. Only Chinese companies were allowed to bid. There was no price discovery.



Umm...the First and second point are the same. its a repetition and that DOES NOT make you dumb. Ok. You are so not dumb. The power projects under consideration are CPEC projects. That is a fact and you are not, I repeat, Dumb.



30 billion have been allocated not spent. So more than 90% of the spent amount is on early harvest power projects. But for doing that math where you assumed figures does not make you dumb.



Because you admit that you don't know and come out with an outrageous conspiracy theory does not make you dumb at all.



Could you write in vernacular next time, I will use google translate to make a head or tail of your arguments. Till then, suffice to say, the PTI has not published the details of CPEC projects which it promised before elections.



But when did I call you dumb, oh magnificent one? Did you assume? Did you feel a lil guilty conscious? I think you did. You are again NOT dumb and infact beyond challenge. Also Soviet Union dis integrated around 89-90 and Russia could not help out India out economically during 1991, but asking this question certainly does NOT make you look dumb at all .

First,

if it's a fact, then what's your evidence? The accuser has to bring the evidence. On paper, bidding took place.

Second,

Yes, it was repetition because you repeated the same point i.e. No bidding took place... in both the first two paragraphs.

Third,

Thanks for the clarification that you meant the amount spent which is funny because you didn't cite any stats yet came to conclusion of>90% but I am the one assuming figures ahah. Also, my figures weren't assumed, the total pledged is around $62 billion of which $28 billion is allocated for Early Harvest, this is what you call a fact.

Fourth,

I don't know why it's being kept hidden, the conspiracy theory here is to say it's being kept hidden because China secretly wants to take over Pakistan
But either way, I went onto clarify why I don't believe the Indian or Western Narrative, because big rivals in the country as well as a large respectable institution all agree that CPEC is not one sided and are content with what it brings for Pakistan. This is not a conspiracy theory, this is a fact that they are all consensual regarding its good fruits, Military again and again assures that CPEC will bring economic goodness, PMLN initiated it, PTI wants to expand it. So, it is reliable.

Fifth,

I am not sure if it made such a statement, maybe it did, if you can please cite the relevant news article or something. Anyways, whether or not they made that promise, it doesn't change the fact that they openly declared a NAB (for corruption and mishandle in Pakistani politics) inquiry for specific energy projects (yes they come under CPEC, but CPEC isn't a huge one piece agreements, it's a collective of MANY projects, it's a composite long-term financial project) in PUNJAB. Furthermore, it doesn't change the fact they openly declared to expand CPEC further.

Lastly,

conspiracy theory
noun
noun: conspiracy theory; plural noun: conspiracy theories

1. a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for an unexplained event.

But as we all know, what's on paper is covert therefore whats written on paper like bidding and stuff that I am claiming, it is all conspiracy theory.

Oh and btw,

 

[Lincoln]

You hit the bulls eye.Just a few days ago their minister told the media that they were producing 14000 Megawatt while having the capacity to produce 19-20000Mw of electricity. Thats a very large idle capacity and they dont have adequate infrastructure to distribute the idle capacity on which they are paying capacity charges.Their economy produces Agri products, cotton, cement and sports good. Thats it. So yes, they foolishly took loans to create extra capacity which was not needed. Also with the FTA they have with China, they will never produce anything of consequence here.

To drive trucks, you need roads. To get others to set up industry, you need electricity. To increase your exports and trade, you need ports. The latter comes first.