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Discredited. Based on an convenient interpretation when it was still being argued that North Indian & South Indians were of different racial stocks. No one believes that South Indians have flat noses anymore.:lol: Now used only by people pushing particular agendas.

Hey,How many flatnosed South Indians have you seen??:lol:
These people have no idea what they are talking about.
 
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Hey,How many flatnosed South Indians have you seen??:lol:
These people have no idea what they are talking about.

South indians look pretty much the same just with darker skin on average
 
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I'm a Tamilian, as Dravidian as they come and I disagree. I'm also not going to dignify the rest of your skull cap bullcrap with a rebuttal. Been over it plenty of times. BTW the bolded part, nice touch. Fart all over the keyboard and add a patronizing "I dont expect you guys to believe". Of course shylock.




Evangelical christianity is rooted in America. Not Europe.

What does that have to do with what I posted? I am not talking about Europe specifically and I know where it started.
 
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This Aryan-Dravid divide had been created by the British just about 200 years ago for their own ends.

Some people with obvious identity crisis just feel the need to latch on to it, despite it having no evidence.

Just their "logic" is the evidence.

The "logic" that is based on their own identity crisis first anf foremost.

Yep,Identity Crisis That's must be the reason.They are so desperate to create their own identity.They want to prove they are a different race than rest of the Indians.That why all this manipulating Max Muller theory.Now you can't blame Bengalis for breaking away.
 
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Dravidian nationalists, from Periyar onwards, and other impartial scholars without an ulterior Indian agenda, accept the Vedic accounts of conquests over dark skinned southerners as having basis in fact. Do you deny that Vedic texts contain descriptions of such battles?

I deny completely that interpretation.

It is understandable that the new revisionist Indian agenda eschews such interpretations, but the Vedic texts remain unchanged by people's agendas.

...and only people who have no idea of what is in those texts & rely purely on convenient interpretations alone make such statements.

So we have these empirical facts:
- Vedic texts were composed in north India (at least later ones).

So?
- Vedic texts talk about a southward migration of their influence through conquest over dark-skinned people.

Where?
- Dravidian culture is known to have an earlier history before Vedic influence was infused.
again where?
- South Indians generally have darker skin than northerners.

Some do, some do not. Aishwarya Rai is fairer than most North Indians. In any case, irrelevant when I'm not buying the claim that there were any references to dark skinned people and believe that to be the most abused interpretation.

Sure, we can come up with creative explanations that fit all these facts.
Or we can use logic and stick with the simplest explanation that fits the facts.

Yes we can and yours passes the first test & fails the second.

Should we start posting the lovely Quranic verses as well!

Just saying. ;)

You are walking into a needless trap. His explanation is that which is mostly discredited & is used by people as if the last two decades of research, both on the Sarasvati & genetics never happened.
 
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Hey,How many flatnosed South Indians have you seen??:lol:
These people have no idea what they are talking about.

That's only because the conquest was so absolute that you guys have lost memory of your pre-convert days.

Except the Tamils -- they seem to remember some of it.

Are you seriously denying that Tamils claim to have a history going back 10,000 years? Ask a Tamil, they will be happy to tell you.

This fascination of some Pakistanis with Tamils is most interesting. They don't know jack about them but they assume for some reason that Tamils are separatists and anti Hindu (or can be made so with their not so subtle provocations).

They ask even Tamilians sometimes to "Ask a Tamil"! ;)
 
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You are walking into a needless trap. His explanation is that which is mostly discredited & is used by people as if the last two decades of research, both on the Sarasvati & genetics never happened.

Obviously I was just pointing out the hypocrisy.

No real intention to mention the obvious. That they have feet of clay.

They should get over the obsession with Dharma now. Dharma and them have mutually rejected each other and we are both glad for it.

Now don't obsess.

For them, they got out of the jahiliyah and got the final and the perfect.

For us, we have accepted to write off the loss and move on.

Yep,Identity Crisis That's must be the reason.They are so desperate to create their own identity.They want to prove they are a different race than rest of the Indians.That why all this manipulating Max Muller theory.Now you can't blame Bengalis for breaking away.

Well, Pakistan is the fruit of a thousand years of Islam is India.

And we wish them well.

Far away from us. We need no part of them obsessing with us now.
 
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Well, Pakistan is the fruit of a thousand years of Islam is India.

And we wish them well.

Far away from us. We need no part of them obsessing with us now.

Pakistan is the fruit of efforts of one ambitious Lawyer.Nothing more nothing less.But I am glad he succeeded.
 
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Discredited. Based on an convenient interpretation when it was still being argued that North Indian & South Indians were of different racial stocks. No one believes that South Indians have flat noses anymore.:lol: Now used only by people pushing particular agendas.

Only one reference talks about flat noses; the reference to dark skin is in various places as noted in my post and the referenced text.

Periyar is not a scholar.He simply swallowed Max Muller's Aryan Invasion Theory.Which has absolutly no evidence what so ever.

Agastya is a proper Tamil legend. And Periyar used Vedic texts themselves as proof of the militaristic nature of the Vedic elite.

You are contradicting yourself.Is it Migration or Invasion.Because both are very different.And Give me the page no.

Migration is often heralded by invasion. Already gave the Rig Vedic references to dark skin.

We both know the reason. Having been here for a long time.

Come back when you can conduct a rational discussion without seeking refuge in desperate claims of "identity crisis".

I deny completely that interpretation.

That's your interpretation. Other scholars have different interpretations. You can accuse them of having an agenda, but the same is true of you -- more so, I dare say.

...and only people who have no idea of what is in those texts & rely purely on convenient interpretations alone make such statements.

Again, the similarities between Vedic and Tamil legends of Agastya suggest they refer to the same event. Now you will say the Tamils themselves do not know how to interpret their own legends.


It means that any Vedic influence outside of those regions was a foreign imposition. Was it done through conquest or "flower power"?

Oh wait. The Vedic texts themselves tell us that the Vedic gods brought "enlightenment" upon their enemies through conquest. Granted, many of these enemies were in the north, but Vedic culture did find its way to the south eventually. Did the Vedic gods suddenly have a change of heart and change tack to flower power when bringing "enlightenment" to the south?


Agastya.

again where?

Are you saying the Tamils had no culture prior to "enlightenment" by Vedic culture? Is all the talk of ancient Dravidian cultures a fabricated myth?

Some do, some do not. Aishwary Rai is fairer than most North Indians. In any case, irrelevant when I'm not buying the claim that there were any references to dark skinned people and believe that to be the most abused interpretation.

As a group, south Indians have darker skin than northerners. As for your particular interpretation, I already responded above. You are welcome to deny anything you like, but that won't stop established scholars from doing their work.

Yes we can and yours passes the first test & fails the second.

Mine, and the scholars', passes the test of simplicity. For example, I explained about the legend of Agastya in the previous post.

His explanation is that which is mostly discredited & is used by people as if the last two decades of research, both on the Sarasvati & genetics never happened.

Now you are deflecting to talk of a physical massive Aryan migration into the subcontinent. That particular debate is irrelevant to this discussion.

Regardless of whether the Aryan tribes were indigenous to north India or not, the debate here is about the infusion of northern Vedic culture into southern Dravidian culture.
 
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Well, one sees the same old insecurities and obsessions with Dharma and India coming though again and again.

Let me just repeat some old stuff on the same issue.

There are many Tamils here including KS.

They will be happy to provide the facts.

You people never move on. You know that there was some political issue with some Tamil politicians not preferring to join India in the 50s. It was sorted out and Tamils are patriotic Indians, some of the most fiercely so.

And they are some of the most devout Hindus.

But you are stuck in that 50s talk of political issues and extrapolate that to religion which was never an issue. You keep hoping against hope that India will break again. That is the underlying thought process.

And that is why that "khitab". ;)

Choose option 2.

See, there are two possibilities.

One: You just move on and break all connection with your ancestors' history and belief system. That is what typically happens with Islamic converts. As per Sir Naipaul: Islam makes imperialist demands and forces Muslims to adapt Arab history. They start feeling that all was jahiliyah pre Islam and by extension their ancestors were Jahil and the Muslim invaders did a great "ahsaan" on them by saving their souls.

Even that is fine with us. As I said, we have no tradition of killing our apostates.

Just don't abuse the religion of your own ancestors. Don't abuse people who still follow that faith system. Don't denigrate the identity of your own ancestors because there are a large number still identifying with that great legacy.

You do that and you invite a reaction. Newton's third law.

And the reaction will not be to your liking. By definition.

Second option: Truly move on. Become Central Asians, Arabs, Persians, Turks whatever and stop obsessing with India in every damn thing.

Leave us alone and we leave you alone.

I prefer the second option. Nothing to do with each other.

The main issue is that they can't just be happy what they are.

They still have to obsess about the idea of India and Dharma and wish for India's destruction.

That is the least they can do for their Ummah!
 
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Only one reference talks about flat noses; the reference to dark skin is in various places as noted in my post and the referenced text.

Agastya.

Migration is often heralded by invasion. Already gave the Rig Vedic references to dark skin.

You are doing way too guess work to suit your beliefs.The legends does says he led a southern migration of the Velir from Dwaraka to Kerala.But Velir are not originally Indo Aryan Speakers.

The Velir-Velar-Velalar groups constituted the ruling and the land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history and betray no trace whatever of an indo-Aryan linguistic ancestry.So Agasthya was never a Indo Aryan to begin with,So what makes you think he was invading south.:lol:Your theories are full of hot air



Come back when you can conduct a rational discussion without seeking refuge in desperate claims of "identity crisis".



That's your interpretation. Other scholars have different interpretations. You can accuse them of having an agenda, but the same is true of you -- more so, I dare say.



Again, the similarities between Vedic and Tamil legends of Agastya suggest they refer to the same event. Now you will say the Tamils themselves do not know how to interpret their own legends.



It means that any Vedic influence outside of those regions was a foreign imposition. Was it done through conquest or "flower power"?

Oh wait. The Vedic texts themselves tell us that the Vedic gods brought "enlightenment" upon their enemies through conquest.

Read my previous post




Are you saying the Tamils had no culture prior to "enlightenment" by Vedic culture? Is all the talk of ancient Dravidian cultures a fabricated myth?





As a group, south Indians have darker skin than northerners. As for your particular interpretation, I already responded above. You are welcome to deny anything you like, but that won't stop established scholars from doing their work.



Mine, and the scholars', passes the test of simplicity. For example, I explained about the legend of Agastya in the previous post.



Now you are seeking refuge in a physical massive Aryan migration into the subcontinent. That particular debate is irrelevant to this discussion.

Regardless of whether the Aryan tribes were indigenous to north India or not, the debate here is about the infusion of northern Vedic culture into southern Dravidian culture.

Migration from Central Asia to Indian Subcontinent is a well established fact.In fact,95% Indian's ancestors were migrants.That include North and South Indians.But your Northern Aryan invasion to Southern Dravidian is nothing, but BS.. The Sangam literature(Which BTW as old as Vedas) too does not report of an Aryan invasion,No archeological evidence what so ever.So what kind of evidence you have.
 
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You are doing way too guess work to suit your beliefs.The legends does says he led a southern migration of the Velir from Dwaraka to Kerala.But Velir are not originally Indo Aryan Speakers.

The Velir-Velar-Velalar groups constituted the ruling and the land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history and betray no trace whatever of an indo-Aryan linguistic ancestry.So Agasthya was never a Indo Aryan to begin with,So what makes you think he was invading south.:lol:Your theories are full of hot air

Read my previous post

Migration from Central Asia to Indian Subcontinent is a well established fact.In fact,95% Indian's ancestors were migrants.That include North and South Indians.But your Northern Aryan invasion to Southern Dravidian is nothing but BS.

Now, this "migration" is linked to the out of Africa theory.

Indian gene pool has been same for at least 40,000 years if not more IIRC.
 
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You are doing way too guess work to suit your beliefs.The legends does says he led a southern migration of the Velir from Dwaraka to Kerala.But Velir are not originally Indo Aryan Speakers.

The Velir-Velar-Velalar groups constituted the ruling and the land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history and betray no trace whatever of an indo-Aryan linguistic ancestry.So Agasthya was never a Indo Aryan to begin with,So what makes you think he was invading south.:lol:Your theories are full of hot air

Read the bottom of post 250 about this particular point.
 
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Read the bottom of post 250 about this particular point.

You are wrong the stories don't match at all. Tamil researchers say that Agastya mentioned in Vedas and Agathiyar(the Tamil Name) mentioned in Tamil texts could be two different characters.Agathiyar is the father of Ancient Sangam Tamil literature who led a Velir migration from Dwaraka.That description does not match with one in Vedas.
 
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