Global city rankings at GaWC 2018

[Senang Diri]

Yes I did before, many years ago when people were still arguing about the US recovery under the Obama administration.

There's nothing wrong with it. Did you study economics before, or do you just read up on the internet? That's just how GDP is calculated and defined. They should be recorded irrespective of what is the relationship between a consumer and a producer. Whether you stay in your house or you rent it out it should generate the same economic value.

No, that's the explanation proffered by the BEA to support their twisted pov. There is no natural, pre-determined rate at which such "imputed" activities would be measured, because they never took place.

Not in the case of Singapore. Otherwise, imputed rent - given 90%+ home ownership - would have accounted for what, I'm guessing $100 billion a year alone. And what about other imputation?

How do we assign a fair value to all transactions that never took place? What about hedonic adjustments?

AFAIK, no other country even uses hedonic adjustments.

Without imputations and hedonic adjustments, the US GDP falls to ~$12 to $13 trillion, a very respectable amount still for a population of ~320 million. Just not as gigantic as their official stats would show.

Transactions that never occurred, never did.

The BEA came up with a new idea. That is, transactions that never occurred, still are assumed to have occurred. That is why the real life style of average Americans are poorer than what their stats would show. Not at the developing country level but not as great as the official stats would have you believe.

 

[Mista]

No, that's the explanation proffered by the BEA to support their twisted pov. There is no natural, pre-determined rate at which such "imputed" activities would be measured, because they never took place.

Not in the case of Singapore. Otherwise, imputed rent - given 90%+ home ownership - would have accounted for what, I'm guessing $100 billion a year alone. And what about other imputation?

Stop showing your ignorance. Here's straight from Singstat:

https://www.singstat.gov.sg/-/media/files/publications/economy/gdi.pdf

(Footnote) 1 Includes imputed rental of owner-occupied dwellings.

Imputed rent. In the case of owner-occupied dwellings, where the owners as “occupiers” are deemed to pay to themselves in their capacity as “landlords”, i.e. they are viewed as renting their houses or flats to themselves. These “payments” are known as imputed rental of owner occupied dwellings. The ratio of owner-occupied to rented dwellings can vary significantly between countries and even over short periods of time within a country, so that both international and intertemporal comparisons of the production and consumption of housing services could be distorted if no imputation was made for the value of own-account housing services.

Rent. Gross receipts from ownership of land and buildings less actual expenditure by owners on repairs, maintenance and insurance. An imputed rent is included for owner-occupied dwellings.

Singapore's GDP couldn't be so high if we didn't include imputed rents since we have one of the highest home ownership rate in the world. Of course you have to add in imputed rents to reflect the economic value produced.

 

[Senang Diri]

Stop showing your ignorance. Here's straight from Singstat:

https://www.singstat.gov.sg/-/media/files/publications/economy/gdi.pdf







Singapore's GDP couldn't be so high if we didn't include imputed rents since we have one of the highest home ownership rate in the world. Of course you have to add in imputed rents to reflect the economic value produced.

Err..no.

Then tell me exactly how much were all imputed transactions worth?

You can't right? Because if imputations to the tune of $3 trillion and even greater hedonic adjustments were made adjusted for population size, given the 90%+ home ownership, GDP would have shot past US$500 billion, I am guessing.

But there is no information on the value of imputations and hedonic adjustments. Can you find that?

 

[Mista]

Then tell me exactly how much were all imputed transactions worth?

Dude, they have already said imputed rents are included. Right from Singstat. Just because they don't publish a separate figure means they are lying? EVERY country includes imputed rent. Come on, it's basic economic knowledge...

if imputations to the tune of $3 trillion and even greater hedonic adjustments were made adjusted for population size, given the 90%+ home ownership, GDP would have shot past US$500 billion, I am guessing.

So Singapore's GDP per capita is above $100K? And Germany's GDP per capita will drop to $30K if they start owning their homes and stop renting?

I don't even know what point you're trying to make here. NYC's GDP is inflated? Beijing should be above NYC in this global city list?

 

[GHALIB]

Global city rankings at GaWC 2018
2018-11-22 06:45

This year, China has six cities ranked among the world's 55 first-tier cities, according to the Globalization and World Cities Study Group and Network, or GaWC.

The leading global rating agency grades cities on four levels, including Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Sufficiency. Each level has two or four ratings indicated as +/-, based on indicators that business and professional services, including banking, insurance, accounting, law, advertising and management consulting, say are essential to support economic development.

In addition, the city's GDP and output value from manufacturing are not contained in the rating indicators.

World Top Ten.
1. London
2. New York
3. Hong Kong
4. Beijing
5. Singapore
6. Shanghai
7. Sydney
8. Paris
9. Dubai
10. Tokyo

Full List: https://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/world2018t.html

Very nice .

 

[Senang Diri]

Dude, they have already said imputed rents are included. Right from Singstat. Just because they don't publish a separate figure means they are lying? EVERY country includes imputed rent. Come on, it's basic economic knowledge...



So Singapore's GDP per capita is above $100K? And Germany's GDP per capita will drop to $30K if they start owning their homes and stop renting?

I don't even know what point you're trying to make here. NYC's GDP is inflated? Beijing should be above NYC in this global city list?

Singapore's population is 5.64 million . Where did you get the $100K figure from? You are using two different standards for two different arguments. On one hand, you include imputations when making the wild $100K GDP per capita estimate for Singapore, and even then the numbers just don't match. OTOH, you excluded imputation from German GDP, I assume. You should measure stats using the same definition, same standards for the stats to be meaningful.

I just stated what I did. From official records. Imputations alone amounted to ~US$ 3 trillion for the US in 2017. You can't find that sum for Singapore but you should have found that if that existed or if so did hedonic adjustments. Given the high home ownership, if imputations to the tune of US were carried out in SG on a per capita basis, obviously official GDP would have shot through the roof. Not even talking of hedonic adjustments.

Another method might be to take a look at the median household income. The US seems to be substantially poorer, even on a market exchange rate basis, without adjusting for price differences. How do we reconcile American ~$61K median household income (official stats, does it include imputation or hedonic adjustments?) with Singapore ~S$108K
median household income in 2017? Average household incomes were obviously higher at ~S$144K.

 

[Mista]

Singapore's population is 5.64 million . Where did you get the $100K figure from?

Way to nitpick. $500b divided by 5.64 million is roughly or near $100K.

You are using two different standards for two different arguments. On one hand, you include imputations when making the wild $100K GDP per capita estimate for Singapore, and even then the numbers just don't match. OTOH, you excluded imputation from German GDP, I assume. You should measure stats using the same definition, same standards for the stats to be meaningful.

I just stated what I did. From official records. Imputations alone amounted to ~US$ 3 trillion for the US in 2017. You can't find that sum for Singapore but you should have found that if that existed or if so did hedonic adjustments. Given the high home ownership, if imputations to the tune of US were carried out in SG on a per capita basis, obviously official GDP would have shot through the roof. Not even talking of hedonic adjustments.

You don't even know what's GDP and it's definition and here you are talking imputations just because you read about it on the internet. I've given you the source straight from Singstat saying that our GDP has included imputations, but you're denying it (not even on behalf of them?) because they didn't provide the separate figures.

Another method might be to take a look at the median household income. The US seems to be substantially poorer, even on a market exchange rate basis, without adjusting for price differences. How do we reconcile American ~$61K median household income (official stats, does it include imputation or hedonic adjustments?) with Singapore ~S$108K
median household income in 2017? Average household incomes were obviously higher at ~S$144K.

The fact that you talked about imputations on median income means you know jackshit about macroeconomics. I'm going to stop the argument here then, especially when it's irrelevant to this thread.

The reason why Singapore has significantly higher median household income than the US despite having similar nominal GDP per capita is because our GDP per capita includes a huge amount of low-skilled foreign labor. Their statistics are excluded when we are computing our resident median household income.

We are very lucky to have foreigners doing our low value-added but necessary jobs in the economy while we locals can take a greater share of high value-added jobs. High pay + relatively low cost of services = high purchasing power. That's how we have such high GNI PPP per capita.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(PPP)_per_capita

 

[Senang Diri]

Way to nitpick. $500b divided by 5.64 million is roughly or near $100K.

LOL, no, off by ~$10K. Does that sound like nitpicking?

You don't even know what's GDP and it's definition and here you are talking imputations just because you read about it on the internet. I've given you the source straight from Singstat saying that our GDP has included imputations, but you're denying it (not even on behalf of them?) because they didn't provide the separate figures.

Well, then tell us the exact value of imputations, hedonic adjustments and such imaginary transactions broken down by activity.

The fact that you talked about imputations on median income means you know jackshit about macroeconomics. I'm going to stop the argument here then, especially when it's irrelevant to this thread.

What do you mean? Elaborate.

The reason why Singapore has significantly higher median household income than the US despite having similar nominal GDP per capita is because our GDP per capita includes a huge amount of low-skilled foreign labor. Their statistics are excluded when we are computing our resident median household income.

We are very lucky to have foreigners doing our low value-added but necessary jobs in the economy while we locals can take a greater share of high value-added jobs. High pay + relatively low cost of services = high purchasing power. That's how we have such high GNI PPP per capita.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(PPP)_per_capita

That means GDP per capita may not show the real earnings, living standards, or purchasing power in this comparison. Median household income might be a better indicator.

Exchange rate volatility versus survey based PPP? Which one do you choose?

Don't use Wikipedia, it reduces your credibility IMO.

 

[Mista]

That means GDP per capita may not show the real earnings, living standards, or purchasing power in this comparison. Median household income might be a better indicator.

Did you even read my original post #5? I talked about median household income in NYC vs Beijing as well as other indicators before you entered the thread.You are the one who assumed that I'm using only GDP to evaluate a city's global importance and quality of life.

You are the one who came in with your preconceived bias about the new citizen/imputations BS when you know nothing about macroeconomics, and tried to dispense wisdom to me in a self-assuming way. You don't even understand what's GDP and that imputed rent is included in every country's GDP calculation according to the IMF standard, but now you're acting all satki infront of me lmao. Go attend some lessons in macroeconomics before trying to teach me about GDP and median household income dude.

https://www.imfconnect.org/content/dam/PFTAC/Documents/Meetings/Macroeconomic Statistics/GDP Forecast Workshop October 17-21, 2016/October 20 Presentations/1_L4 Imputed rental.pdf

 

[Senang Diri]

Did you even read my original post #5? I talked about median household income in NYC vs Beijing as well as other indicators before you entered the thread.You are the one who assumed that I'm using only GDP to evaluate a city's global importance and quality of life.

You are the one who came in with your preconceived bias about the new citizen/imputations BS when you know nothing about macroeconomics, and tried to dispense wisdom to me in a self-assuming way. You don't even understand what's GDP and that imputed rent is included in every country's GDP calculation according to the IMF standard, but now you're acting all satki infront of me lmao. Go attend some lessons in macroeconomics before trying to teach me about GDP and median household income dude.

https://www.imfconnect.org/content/dam/PFTAC/Documents/Meetings/Macroeconomic Statistics/GDP Forecast Workshop October 17-21, 2016/October 20 Presentations/1_L4 Imputed rental.pdf

You are being facetious now.

Show us the imputed amount of economic activity then in Singapore's GDP. From your link, we know the estimated contribution of imputed rental activity in the USA and other Western countries. What is that amount for Singapore?

Imputation does not consist only of rental activities. Didn't know that, did you? Didn't know about hedonic adjustments either, I presume?

Freaking $3 trillion of imputations for the US last year and you can't even point out where is that alleged imputation that supposedly contributes to Singapore's GDP too. Go ahead show us the corresponding, equivalent amount in per capita terms. Do not forget to add in the contributions from hedonic adjustments too, while at it.

[singlish begins]

why u nvr bother double check ur defn leh? so blur lik sotong dunno tok cok for what..more angmor then angmor izzit .

[/end singlish]


$3 trillion! Divide that by their population and it'd be nearly $10,000 per person on imputations alone without adding in the hedonic adjustments.

Tell me where and how did SG statistics add in US$10,000 per person of imputations alone. Which sector is it that adds so much inflated activity?

A new citizen can be sent to that sensitive vocation in charge of C4I when even a certain minority who is born and bred here can't? Don't you know a lot about the SAF?

Hold on! A sensitive vocation in charge of C4I? What position would that be?

I am sure you are making things up. Can you elaborate plz?

Didn't you say you served NS alone?

 

[Mista]

You are being facetious now.

Show us the imputed amount of economic activity then in Singapore's GDP. From your link, we know the estimated contribution of imputed rental activity in the USA and other Western countries. What is that amount for Singapore?

Imputation does not consist only of rental activities. Didn't know that, did you? Didn't know about hedonic adjustments either, I presume?

Freaking $3 trillion of imputations for the US last year and you can't even point out where is that alleged imputation that supposedly contributes to Singapore's GDP too. Go ahead show us the corresponding, equivalent amount in per capita terms. Do not forget to add in the contributions from hedonic adjustments too, while at it.

[singlish begins]

why u nvr bother double check ur defn leh? so blur lik sotong dunno tok cok for what..more angmor then angmor izzit .

[/end singlish]


$3 trillion! Divide that by their population and it'd be nearly $10,000 per person on imputations alone without adding in the hedonic adjustments.

Tell me where and how did SG statistics add in US$10,000 per person of imputations alone. Which sector is it that adds so much inflated activity?



Hold on! A sensitive vocation in charge of C4I? What position would that be?

I am sure you are making things up. Can you elaborate plz?

Didn't you say you served NS alone?

Please go take some economics lesson before talking about imputations you've read on the internet. I've shown you so many sources from Singstat to IMF, and you still continue to deny that imputation calculation exists in EVERY country.

why u nvr bother double check ur defn leh? so blur lik sotong dunno tok cok for what..more angmor then angmor izzit .

plz lah. don't gey kiang and embarrass sinkies here by talking about something you dk can? still simi new citizen imputations. ppl show u source from IMF and Singstat liao you still tee kee here deny. up to you lah hor, unproductive and irrelevant argument here in this thread anyway.

 

[Mista]

Show us the imputed amount of economic activity then in Singapore's GDP. From your link, we know the estimated contribution of imputed rental activity in the USA and other Western countries. What is that amount for Singapore?

Imputation does not consist only of rental activities. Didn't know that, did you? Didn't know about hedonic adjustments either, I presume?

Here you go. Ownership of dwellings make up the largest share of imputation in GDP, and it's included.

http://www.tablebuilder.singstat.gov.sg/publicfacing/createDataTable.action?refId=12360

Ownership of Dwellings
Housing services provided by owner-occupiers and individuals who let out their residential properties.

It's around 3.9% of our GDP.
In the US it's 7.9% of GDP.
Australia, 8% of GDP.

Housing services are cheap in Singapore thanks to HDB selling flats at below market price.

 

[Senang Diri]

Please go take some economics lesson before talking about imputations you've read on the internet. I've shown you so many sources from Singstat to IMF, and you still continue to deny that imputation calculation exists in EVERY country.

I continue to deny that per capita, as much imputed economic activities, are attributed to Singapore's GDP as in the US GDP. Yes, that is borne out by facts.

plz lah. don't gey kiang and embarrass sinkies here by talking about something you dk can? still simi new citizen imputations. ppl show u source from IMF and Singstat liao you still tee kee here deny. up to you lah hor, unproductive and irrelevant argument here in this thread anyway.

That proves you are not a Singaporean nor a Singlish speaker.

I'm sure you just looked up some online Singlish dictionary.

You never answered this part.

Hold on! A sensitive vocation in charge of C4I? What position would that be?

I am sure you are making things up. Can you elaborate plz?

Didn't you say you served NS alone?

Here you go. Ownership of dwellings make up the largest share of imputation in GDP, and it's included.

http://www.tablebuilder.singstat.gov.sg/publicfacing/createDataTable.action?refId=12360



It's around 3.9% of our GDP.
In the US it's 7.9% of GDP.
Australia, 8% of GDP.

Housing services are cheap in Singapore thanks to HDB selling flats at below market price.

Wrong on so many accounts, Mr Foreign Citizen.

1. Ownership of dwellings include dwellings rented out to tenants. If you, a tenant, pay monthly fees for renting an apartment, that sum is counted in the entry "ownership of dwellings".

Imputations include activities that never occurred.

Tell us how much in the form of imputations was added to Singapore's GDP since you are adamant about it.

2. Imputations do not include only assumed rentals but other activities. Did you forget that Mista Foreign Citizen? Where are those other activities as well?

3. Hedonic adjustments are also not alluded to. Why is that?

4. Cheap housing? In Singapore, despite the cooling measures, housing is much more expensive than the US, on average.

You can get a 3,000 square feet two storey comfy house in the US for $200,000 or thereabout. What does that get you in Singapore? A teeny tiny HDB flat.

Moreover, it again proves you know little about economics when you say housing price rather than rental market decides the imputed rental payments. Rental prices are higher in Singapore than the USA and yet you want me to believe that all imputed rentals in Singapore would amount to a sum much lower than the US on a per capita basis?

What happened is you are a foreign citizen with no clue about Singapore except perhaps visiting it a few times and looking up terms on the internet to act as an impostor.

What also happened is you do not know that Singapore has around 90% home ownership which implies that tenants would form a tiny portion of the total population, which is why rental payments by tenants - which are included under the entry "ownership of dwellings" - form such a tiny portion of GDP in Singapore despite having some of the highest rental rates in the world for any country, cooling measures or not.

What you also conveniently forgot are other imputations as included in US GDP, to the tune of $3 trillion, and even more in the form of hedonic adjustments.

Nevermind, just answer this

Hold on! A sensitive vocation in charge of C4I? What position would that be?

I am sure you are making things up. Can you elaborate plz?

Didn't you say you served NS alone?

"Mista" Foreign Citizen

 

[Mista]

I continue to deny that per capita, as much imputed economic activities, are attributed to Singapore's GDP as in the US GDP. Yes, that is borne out by facts.





That proves you are not a Singaporean nor a Singlish speaker.

I'm sure you just looked up some online Singlish dictionary.

You never answered this part.





Wrong on so many accounts, Mr Foreign Citizen.

1. Ownership of dwellings include dwellings rented out to tenants. If you, a tenant, pay monthly fees for renting an apartment, that sum is counted in the entry "ownership of dwellings".

Imputations include activities that never occurred.

Tell us how much in the form of imputations was added to Singapore's GDP since you are adamant about it.

2. Imputations do not include only assumed rentals but other activities. Did you forget that Mista Foreign Citizen? Where are those other activities as well?

3. Hedonic adjustments are also not alluded to. Why is that?

4. Cheap housing? In Singapore, despite the cooling measures, housing is much more expensive than the US, on average.

You can get a 3,000 square feet two storey comfy house in the US for $200,000 or thereabout. What does that get you in Singapore? A teeny tiny HDB flat.

Moreover, it again proves you know little about economics when you say housing price rather than rental market decides the imputed rental payments. Rental prices are higher in Singapore than the USA and yet you want me to believe that all imputed rentals in Singapore would amount to a sum much lower than the US on a per capita basis?

What happened is you are a foreign citizen with no clue about Singapore except perhaps visiting it a few times and looking up terms on the internet to act as an impostor.

What also happened is you do not know that Singapore has around 90% home ownership which implies that tenants would form a tiny portion of the total population, which is why rental payments by tenants - which are included under the entry "ownership of dwellings" - form such a tiny portion of GDP in Singapore despite having some of the highest rental rates in the world for any country, cooling measures or not.

What you also conveniently forgot are other imputations as included in US GDP, to the tune of $3 trillion, and even more in the form of hedonic adjustments.

Nevermind, just answer this



"Mista" Foreign Citizen

Singlish dictionary? What a joke. You're overestimate yourself if you think a 'foreigner' have to find a Singlish dictionary to prove anything to you, on a forum what's more. BHB sia.
You should head back to EDMW and stop disgracing us further with your limited economic knowledge. I've provided you with the figures from official sources.

You haven't answered my question. Have you taken economics in JC/uni? If you did, which school are you from? Your lecturer didn't even teach you about the basic concepts of GDP?

Hold on! A sensitive vocation in charge of C4I? What position would that be?

I will just say, Stagmont in CCK. Certainly you know which minority won't be posted there, let alone foreign-born. You're getting desperate if you have to resort to calling me a foreigner.

Or you Yalam?

 

[Senang Diri]

Singlish dictionary? What a joke. You're overestimate yourself if you think a 'foreigner' have to find a Singlish dictionary to prove anything to you, on a forum what's more. BHB sia.
You should head back to EDMW and stop disgracing us further with your limited economic knowledge. I've provided you with the figures from official sources.

You haven't answered my question. Have you taken economics in JC/uni? If you did, which school are you from? Your lecturer didn't even teach you about the basic concepts of GDP?



I will just say, Stagmont in CCK. Certainly you know which minority won't be posted there, let alone foreign-born. You're getting desperate if you have to resort to calling me a foreigner.

Or you Yalam?

1. We both know you are a foreigner, that is, non Singaporean. Your poor Singlish confirmed it.

2. You are probably a teenager since you frequent that forum which is populated by mostly unemployed youth and teenagers from SG, and quite a lot of foreign citizens. Around half the members there are foreign citizens even if they pretend to be Singaporeans. Not hard for a genuine Singaporean to figure that out.

3. As a foreigner, the most convenient vocation you would profess to have served would be in the Signals Formation because of the lower physical demands and the fact that some operations are classified. However, there are Malays in the Signals, Armour, Artillery, even Commando and Air Force units. Even if they are a few token Malays in those positions. You would not know that since you are a foreign citizen who probably never lived in Singapore apart from
short visits as a tourist.

As a foreigner pretending to be Singaporean, you would also look up Signals Formation Singapore in Google and find that it is headquartered at Stagmont. Does not take a genius to figure that out either.

4. Therefore, I am calling your bluff. My question in response to your following statement would be:

I will just say, Stagmont in CCK.

And?

Don't try to bluff your way out of it.

5. And no, Singaporeans don't use the word "Yalam".

What an absurdity!

The word is "Mat". Now go look up your online Singlish dictionary to find what that means.

Only a bunch of fools would use an inverted word to designate the same group of people. Like in that teenager filled forum, around half of whom are foreign.

6. You could not answer the issues surrounding imputation and hedonics, "Mista" foreign citizen.

Of course, a mere S$16 billion in annual "Ownership of dwellings" for around 1.4 million residential units would mean less than S$1,000 per residential unit per month, on average (arithmetic mean).

Can you find me an apartment which is rented for less than S$1,000 per month let alone condos or landed property?


7. As you have been proven to be a foreigner, with your numerous Singlish gaffes and ignorance of military affairs, I'd stop responding to you further.