Germans today see Nazi defeat as liberation

[Indian Patriot]

Second, you called the Katyn massacare a BS, which wasn't and you have no answer to that.

If he acknowledges the Katyn massacre then he will have to acknowledge other allied war crimes. That he cannot do so he will keep spinning in circles.

 

[Penguin]

Do you even bother with links? Your only motive here is to troll. But since I want to show the others here how uninformed you are I will post links just to expose you.

"You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr

The WWII Dresden Holocaust - 'A Single Column Of Flame'

The Dresden trip took 12 hours. On this trip, I could still see the fires 500 miles away from Dresden.

BBC ON THIS DAY | 14 | 1945: Thousands of bombs destroy Dresden

You can keep posting how you talked to dresden bombing survivors and other such lies.

BBC - WW2 People's War - Berlin. Late 1944-1945. Surviving the Russian Atrocities

The Fall of Berlin, 1945

The rape of Berlin - Salon.com

You are exposing nothing since nobody (and certainly not me) denied Dresden, or Hamburg or any other major raid in Germany or Japan. Or any other atrocity prior to WW2, all the way back to eternity.

The only two Waffen SS divisions formed in Serbia were 7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division Prinz Eugen (Germans) and 21st Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Skanderbeg (Albanians). Serbian Volunteer Corps and The Serbian State Guard (Serbian collaborationist) were never Waffen SS unit. Many Germans from Serbia were also in 24th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Karstjäger.

Thank you for clarifying that.

First read the title of the thread. It is not just about bombers. Second, you called the Katyn massacare a BS, which wasn't and you have no answer to that. The files declassified in Gorbachev's era puts the blame for the massacare on NKVD and you reject these and consider German's responsible for that, this shows how biased you are.

NO, I've NOT called Katyn BS.

When you look at posrt 126 and 128, you will find that the thing I call BS is your allegation "Soviet fans deliberately ignore the Katyn massacare carried out by Soviet troops in Poland. The people weeping on the bombing of Warsaw won't say a word about that bloodshed"

The links I post in 128 are about Katyn from US govt site ("The Madden Committee determined unanimously that the NKVD was responsible for the executions"), commercial UK sites etc. (Britannica:"Although a 1952 U.S. congressional inquiry concluded that the Soviet Union had been responsible for the massacre, Soviet leaders insisted for decades that the Polish officers found at Katyn had been killed by the invading Germans in 1941. This explanation was accepted without protest by successive Polish communist governments until the late 1980s, when the Soviet Union allowed a noncommunist coalition government to come to power in Poland.")

In short, you've totally missed the point.

 

[Indian Patriot]

You are exposing nothing since nobody (and certainly not me) denied Dresden, or Hamburg or any other major raid in Germany or Japan. Or any other atrocity prior to WW2, all the way back to eternity.

You were the one crying "bla bla bla" and later "links links".

And did I just read correctly that you denied/mocked Katyn massacre? You are losing credibility every time you post.

 

[Psychic]

You are exposing nothing since nobody (and certainly not me) denied Dresden, or Hamburg or any other major raid in Germany or Japan. Or any other atrocity prior to WW2, all the way back to eternity.


Thank you for clarifying that.


NO, I've NOT called Katyn BS.

When you look at posrt 126 and 128, you will find that the thing I call BS is your allegation "Soviet fans deliberately ignore the Katyn massacare carried out by Soviet troops in Poland. The people weeping on the bombing of Warsaw won't say a word about that bloodshed"

The links I post in 128 are about Katyn from US govt site ("The Madden Committee determined unanimously that the NKVD was responsible for the executions"), commercial UK sites etc. (Britannica:"Although a 1952 U.S. congressional inquiry concluded that the Soviet Union had been responsible for the massacre, Soviet leaders insisted for decades that the Polish officers found at Katyn had been killed by the invading Germans in 1941. This explanation was accepted without protest by successive Polish communist governments until the late 1980s, when the Soviet Union allowed a noncommunist coalition government to come to power in Poland.")

In short, you've totally missed the point.

I was talking about the members like koovie etc and other people on this thread, not US govt which of course had to save it's way of life from communism after ww2. So there was a mis understanding by both of us.

 

[Lonely Hermit]

History is written by the victors to suite their narrative.
We need to make a factual opinion only when we hear the narrative from other side.

 

[Penguin]

You were the one crying "bla bla bla" and later "links links".

And did I just read correctly that you denied/mocked Katyn massacre? You are losing credibility every time you post.

No you didn't, obviously. But theirein lies part of your problem.

 

[Indian Patriot]

No you didn't, obviously. But theirein lies part of your problem.

You accusing others of having a problem is kind of ironic.

 

[Penguin]

History is written by the victors to suite their narrative.
We need to make a factual opinion only when we hear the narrative from other side.

If so, then the story of the bombing of Guernica by the German Conder Legion would never have come out, since the Nazi-supported Nationalists won the Spanish civil war in the late1930s and Generalisimo Franco died in 1975 after a 36-year rule.

And yet, the first English-language media reports of the destruction in Guernica appeared two days later. George Steer, a reporter for The Times, who was covering the Spanish Civil War from inside the country, authored the first full account of events and clearly implicated the Germans. The Nationalists claimed that Guernica had been deliberately burned and dynamited by fleeing Republican forces, which had been using the city to store ammunition and explosives. While Republican forces had been involved in pursuing a scorched earth strategy in the past, (notably in Irun, which was dynamited), Steer's reporting was supported by the reporting of other journalists who witnessed the same levels of destruction. The view that civilian casualties had been kept to a minimum was not widely accepted.Despite Francoist efforts to play down the reports, they proliferated and led to widespread international outrage at the time.

Bombing of Guernica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Indian Patriot]

All allied propaganda. England was creating propaganda against Germany. The europeans hate Germany for their alleged fascism while the rest of the world hates europeans for their colonial past. For allies Germany was villain while for colonies Germany was the hero for bombing and killing dutch, english, french and avenging colonialism.

 

[Penguin]

You accusing others of having a problem is kind of ironic.

Yes, you never accuse anyone of anything, right? Certainly not in this thread, eh?

 

[Indian Patriot]

Propaganda is true even today. WMD in Iraq - the white lie led to the second gulf war. Once again the english proved they are masters of deceit and propaganda.

Yes, you never accuse anyone of anything, right? Certainly not in this thread, eh?

I have accused europeans of colonialism and it stands true. If you can prove europeans did not indulge in colonialism then prove it.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

May 7, 10:42 AM EDT

Germans today see Nazi defeat as liberation

By DAVID RISING
Associated Press

The troops of the 10th Tank Corps 5th Guards Tank Army 2nd Belorussian Front occupied city Mühlhausen (now the Polish city Młynary) the city was liberated from the Nazi troops January 24, 1945.​

BERLIN (AP) -- Millions of Germans experienced the fall of Nazi Germany 70 years ago Friday as total defeat. Today, most Germans view it as liberation from 12 years of tyranny.

In a symbol of the shift in perception, the German Parliament plans a special session Friday to reflect upon "a day that stands for a new beginning, and the double liberation from war and Nazism."

A poll released last week showed 89 percent of Germans now think of the end of the war as liberation, with only 9 percent calling it a defeat. That compares to 35 percent who saw the Nazi fall as a defeat a decade ago. The Forsa institute poll of 18 to 85 year olds had a margin of error of plus or minus three percentage points.

In marking the end of the war in Europe, Chancellor Angela Merkel has already paid tribute to Nazi victims in a ceremony at the Dachau concentration camp near Munich; on Sunday she will lay a wreath on the tomb of an unknown Red Army soldier buried in Moscow. Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier left Thursday to take part in ceremonies in Volgograd, formally Stalingrad, where the Soviets won a decisive victory over the Nazis in a turning point of the war.

The change in perception has not come overnight.

A groundbreaking moment came when then-West German President Richard von Weizsaecker's referred to Nazi Germany's defeat as a "day of liberation" in a speech marking the 40th anniversary of the war's end in 1985. When Weizsaecker died in January, Merkel said the comment was "a necessary, clear statement that was significant for our German self-image."

Another important landmark came in 2004, when then-Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder marked the 60th anniversary of Col. Claus von Stauffenberg's failed attempt to kill Hitler with a briefcase bomb by calling him and his co-conspirators heroes - erasing any perception of them as traitors as they had been labeled by the Nazis.

Schroeder was the first chancellor with no personal memory of the war himself. And only one member of Merkel's Cabinet - Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble - was born by the war's end.

Merkel in her video message this week stressed that her generation still had an historical obligation to fulfill.

"We Germans have a special responsibility to deal attentively, sensitively and skillfully with what we did in the Nazi era and what long-lasting wounds and concerns there are in other countries," she said. "I fully understand that."

German President Joachim Gauck, meanwhile, has said that paying tribute to Soviet soldiers would be at the center of his commemorations marking the events of May 1945 - although the former pastor from communist East Germany acknowledged that memories of the Soviet army are "ambivalent."

"On May 8, 1945, we were liberated - by the people of the Soviet Union, though not only them," he told the daily Sueddeutsche Zeitung in an interview Saturday. "We owe them gratitude and respect. And that is the case regardless of the fact that the Soviet liberators ensured, as occupiers in eastern Germany after the war, a lack of freedom, repression and persecution."

The war remains so central to modern Germany that there is no danger of it being forgotten in Germany, even if perceptions have changed, said Berlin Free University historian Paul Nolte.

He noted how the French Revolution more than 200 years ago still plays a role today in French political discourse, and that the U.S. Civil War ended 150 years ago but remains part of the American racism debate today.

The Nazi era will be a decisive part of Germany's history, "long into the foreseeable future," he said.

"Even when it lies 200 years in the past."

-----

Kirsten Grieshaber and Geir Moulson contributed to this story.

The Germans have cultivated a culture of self hate unlike the Japanese. I am no fan of the Nazis or Hitler but celebrating your own country's defeat(and not just regime) is just sick. I respect the Japanese more. Even in death, nukes and defeat, they did not sacrifice everything.

It is also a uniquely German way of shedding responsibility of the past. In Hitler's time they eagerly threw off the Weimar Republic. After Hitler was gone, they eagerly became slaves. There was no resistance post surrender. Remarkable capability for adjustment. Admirable. Not honorable.

 

[Indian Patriot]

The Germans have cultivated a culture of self hate unlike the Japanese. I am no fan of the Nazis or Hitler but celebrating your own country's defeat(and not just regime) is just sick. I respect the Japanese more. Even in death, nukes and defeat, they did not sacrifice everything.

It is also a uniquely German way of shedding responsibility of the past. In Hitler's time they eagerly threw off the Weimar Republic. After Hitler was gone, they eagerly became slaves. There was no resistance post surrender. Remarkable capability for adjustment. Admirable. Not honorable.

Don't blame Germans for being slaves. They faced the most cruel and atrocious bombings in human history. The propaganda machinery of US media, english news channels and the biggest of all Hollywood worked over time to portray Germans as people having horns on head and eating human flesh.

Their will was destroyed and broken. For 50 years entire generations of Germans grew up in slavery and as slaves. This is not an exaggeration but a bitter fact. Germany was not only defeated but subjugated as well.

 

[Penguin]

Propaganda is true even today. WMD in Iraq - the white lie led to the second gulf war. Once again the english proved they are masters of deceit and propaganda.

Unlike those Germans, you mean? Or are they too masters of propaganda (does the name Gobbels ring a bell?) and, if so, how can you know the truth about Germans and Nazi's? Can you sort it out if all is propaganda....

I have accused europeans of colonialism and it stands true. If you can prove europeans did not indulge in colonialism then prove it.

I don't need to in order to respond to and engage in discussion about your post #2.
Because a) you accuse and on the accuser lies the burden of proof and b) it is irrelevant to the discussion flowing from post #2.

List of former German colonies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Indian Patriot]

Unlike those Germans, you mean? Or are they too masters of propaganda (does the name Gobbels ring a bell?) and, if so, how can you know the truth about Germans and Nazi's? Can you sort it out if all is propaganda....

Goebbels has been overrated. Do you think the Germans can honestly dare to refute every allegation made against them and their country? Tomorrow if somebody says that the Nazis did satan worship and human sacrifices those poor folks will silently agree.

And no, the Waffen SS was not a group of inhumane savages. They were crack soldiers who did a fine job. Since the allies could not handle them in the battlefield they started calling them savages off the field.

And don't even come up with German colonies all of which were occupied by allies post first world war.

I understand your predicament. As a dutch you are hostile to Germans because they attacked holland. For you the allies are angels and their war crimes or colonial history are all lies. But for countries that were occupied and enslaved by allies including Holland, for them Germany was and will remain a hero.

P.S. - Germany did not come up with the propaganda of WMD in Iraq.