Yet again you quote the allied version of history which is biased and divorced from reality.
Well, let’s assume for a moment this is true, then what according to you is the true story of fascism in Europe of the 1930s? And what is the true story of with the territorial borders and sovereignty in Europe in the 1939-1941 period? I for one would really like to know. Why don’t you enlighten all of the folks here who have been fooled by propaganda?
And of course you don't have any credibility my friend. Your comments are obvious that you are guided by your personal hate of Germany.
What hate of Germany? I love Germany, they are our main trading partners, nice country, wonderful people, great musicians. Lots of good personal friend are German, relatives of mine living in Germany. I really don’t know where you get this idea I hate Germany or Germans. Nazi’s on the other hand ….
And You mock the terror bombings carried out against Germans
Where and how? I challenge you to quote the relevant passages.
And you call Katyn massacre a B.S.,
Where and how? I challenge you to quote the relevant passages. (See also previous post to Desert Fox)
you ignore allied war crimes
No I don’t. I just don’t think the are relevant to the initial discussion. I also don’t see evidence provided by you showing that those atrocities to be a matter of policy, systemic, organized (which is what the holocaust was and which is what the German treatment of Untermenschen and opponents was)
and even call links as fake and stuff.
Like, were? Quote me on it. I do point out how some sources that have quoted by other posters are viewed by the mainstream.
You want to put every modern age blame on Germany while excusing the allied war crimes and colonial history.
Yet another baseless, unsubstantiated accusation by you. Try actually reading my posts. I have at no point disputed any alleged (by you) warcrimes of allies. Indeed, I’ve acknowledged severel times that some allied behaviours might very well quality as warcrimes. I’ve also never denied European countries’ colonial history, including that of Germany and Italy. Indeed, I’ve even indicated that my grandfather worked for the colonial establishment. What did your grandfather do?
As far as I know Bismarc did not put a gun on Holland and forced the innocent, peace-loving dutch to do slave trade.
As far a I know, the Prussian statesman Otto von Bismarck lived 1 April 1815 – 30 July 1898. As for Dutch slave trading: In 1815, at the
Council of Vienna,
Spain,
Portugal,
France, and the
Netherlands also agreed to abolish their slave trade.
Although slavery was illegal inside the Netherlands it flourished in the Dutch Empire, and helped support the economy. By 1650 the Dutch had the pre-eminent slave trade in Europe.[93] They were overtaken by Britain around 1700. As of 1778, it was estimated that the Dutch were shipping approximately 6,000 Africans for enslavement in the Dutch West Indies each year. The Dutch shipped about 550,000 African slaves across the Atlantic, about 75,000 of whom died on board before reaching their destinations. From 1596 to 1829, the Dutch traders sold 250,000 slaves in the Dutch Guianas, 142,000 in the Dutch Caribbean islands, and 28,000 in Dutch Brazil. In addition, tens of thousands of slaves, mostly from India and some from Africa, were carried to the Dutch East Indies.
Note the Dutch slave trading ended long before Bismarck became an adult (let alone a statesman) . Which speaks to your knowledge of history.
Incidentally ...
1829-1596=233 years
250000+142000+28000=420000 slaves shipped > 1802 average per year
Make it a round 500000 (for "tens of thousands to Dutch East Indies") < 2500 average per year
That is about 5-10 shiploads annually (250-500 per ship).?
Check out:
Emmer estimates that despite their general economic strength, in the seventeenth century at least, the Dutch had only a relatively insignificant share in the Atlantic slave trade—never averaging much more than 5–6 per cent of the total. However, he argues that they did have a significant role in the development of the trade in the first half of the seventeenth century, not only through supplying their short-lived Brazilian colony with slaves, but, perhaps more importantly by stimulating the cultivation of sugar—with the consequent urgent need for slaves—in the French and English Caribbean. Then they turned to Spanish America, transporting around 100,000 slaves to this region by 1730. Nevertheless, the Dutch share of the trade as a whole remained relatively small. In a way the problem is not so much why the Dutch role in the Atlantic slave trade was so limited, but rather why they bothered with it at all, as the surviving evidence suggests that, as far as the Dutch were concerned, the economic returns of the slave trade were notably poor. Certainly, the second West India Company (after 1674) failed to make the trade pay, despite enjoying a monopoly until 1730. Admittedly there were a range of other problems dragging the WIC down, but opening the trade up does not seem to have led to a significant improvement in profitability. Indeed, this may be the reason why the economically ailing province of Zeeland played such a prominent part in this trade—merchants there had fewer alternative options, and there was always the hope of profit.
The Dutch Slave Trade 1500-1850 | Reviews in History
All your comments and posts against Germany are propaganda.
So, why don’t you tell the real history of the period 1930-1945? What happened? How come e.g. my grandfather was locked up by Germans in his own country as hostage? How come many others kept similarly were executed in reprisal? All that never happened? Nazi’s were never here? Weren ice people? Please tel us the real story. We’ve all heard you calling everything ‘propaganda’: tell the real story?
I will give you a very fresh and glaring example of propaganda. I am sure you must have heard about Osama Bin Laden and how a team of brave US special forces took him out? Recent leaks reveal that the raid never even took place, that OBL was a Pakistani prisoner and was betrayed for 25 million dollars.
So which account will be recorded in history?
Osama bin who? Who is he and wat does he have to do with the Nazi’s?
In the same way the allies twisted and manipulated facts to make them look good while painting the nazis as demons from hell. When in reality it was the allies who committed war time atrocities.
Yes, Nazi’s were a nice, crisp and clean friendly lot that never did anyything. And since you claimed they were no different from the other Europeans, by extension, all Europeans were a nice, crisp and clean friendly lot that never did anyything. Stellar reasoning!
That is the most outright lie ever said.
The living conditions in the so called "concentration camps" were nothing as portrayed in hollywood movies. The camps were clean and hygenic, it has been noted by prisoners themselves that they were ordered and tasked with keeping the barracks clean and tidy. It was only in 1944-45 that due to severe bombing that supplies could not be reached.
There were many facilities provided to jews. The living condition of jews was no worse that the living condition of Japanese in US concentration camps in mainland America.
Mmm, seems you aren’t even aware of the difference between a concentration camp and a death camp. Also, how do you know (sources, evidence) about the state of camps (which you do acknowledge existed > why did they exist in the first place? Because the nazi’s were such a cheerfull and funloving lot, organizing summer trips for jews?
You acknowledge Japanese had concentration camps. And those of the USA. So do I.
Somewhere between 110,000 and 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry were subject to the mass exclusion program, of whom about two-thirds were U.S. citizens. Care to compare the list of Japanese camps here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_internment_camp
In the Dutch East Indies alone 100,000 European (and some Chinese) civilians were interned by the Japanese. The experience of the occupation by native Indonesians varied considerably, depending upon where one lived and one's social position. Many who lived in areas considered important to the war effort experienced torture, sex slavery, arbitrary arrest and execution, and other war crimes. Many thousands were taken from Indonesia as forced labourers (“romusha”) for Japanese military projects, including the Burma-Siam Railway, and suffered or died as a result of ill-treatment and starvation. Between four and 10 million romusha in Java were forced to work by the Japanese military. About 270,000 of these Javanese labourers were sent to other Japanese-held areas in South East Asia, Only 52,000 were repatriated to Java, meaning a death rate of 80%.
Tell me one thing Penguin. If concentration camps were so bad then why were jews appointed as guards. Have you ever come across the word Kapo? If not then you better do a quick google search.
Simple, because Germans gave Jews a simple choice: do our bidding or die. The existence of Kapo’s or Jewish councils proves nothing about camp conditions. Are you suggesting there were nog SS guards? No GERMAN guards? What armaments did Kapo’s get? What armaments did campguards (military/WH or paramilitary/SS) have. IIRC Auschwitz alone was staffed by 7,000 members of the German SS.
There was no such thing called death camp and 80+ people were never crammed inside a car. That is propaganda. The nazis needed the jews as slave labour just like allies needed colonies as slave labor. The nazis could have killed the jews in their native countries itself instead of transporting them so far, housing them in barracks and then killing them off. Makes no sense at all.
Really? So, you are saying that ‘because it does’t make sense’ it didn’t happen? That’s your argument/proof?
The Germans didn’t need Jews for slave labor, they had plenty of non-Jewish slavic people for that, including many millions of Russian POWs. Realize there never were 6 million Jewish camp inhabitants at any given moment. Far more people (incl non-Jews) went to camps than their holding capacity at any given moment: where did the difference go?
And oh, anti-semitisim was not invented by the nazis either. Your beolved hero england too have their hands full with anti-semitism.
Never claimed it was invented bt nazi’s (nor that it is limited to Jews). What makes you think I luv’ England, a country with which my country has waged war far more numerously than with Germany? Oh but wait, our Royal houses are relatived and oh wait, both English and Dutch royal houses are … of German descent.
