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Gen. Raheel not received any job offer from Saudi Arabia: Sartaj Aziz

nationalist ideals
WE need Turkish style nationalism and think green, talk green, breath green and bleed green.

pro-erdogan-demonstration-munich-germany-july-people-turkish-origin-came-to-to-support-prime-minister-turkey-recep-32447029.jpg


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Iranians and Russians stabilized Syria (Middle East) in a way that thousands of Syrians got killed and millions migrated
And you think Russian's and Iranian's started the Syrian fiasco? What you get your news from Fox news or Israel Times newspaper.

It was USA and Saudia that began the Syrian fiasco that then ran out of control to the ketchup it is today.
 
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Well I was so sure that Gen. Raheel would not get command of any Saudi alliance that I placed a wager that I would leave PDF if I was wrong. This was not based on having any secret contacts, knowing Gen. Sharif, or indeed having some insider in the Saudi defence ministry.


It was just based on my analysis of KSA, Pakstan, GCC and the history of that relationship. That history points to Arabs getting Pakistani help when needed but secretly or informally. The final product always has 'Arab' printed on it and any Pakistani contribution is masked. In the public space GCC people regard Pakistan with concieted arrogance and look down as 'Miskeen' - even when their fighter jets are being flown by Pak pilots, or their banks were set up by Pak CEOs.

As I said before GCC treats Pakistan like a brothel. It just surreptitiously buy's out services instead of building up institutional compact with the Pakistani state. For example GCC could set up a Organization of Trans Arabian Sea Nations - OTAN. This could be structured along NATO lines where members around and across the Arabian Sea join in a military alliance.

OTAN

Pakistan
KSA
GCC
Oman
Kuwait

Could all join and bring forth what they have to offer. Pakistan has plenty of military age youth and could easily another new 300,000 army command with say 100 4th gen fighters and air support based in Arabian peninsula. Since GCC members have the money they could contribute to the financing of OTAN. Command could be circular, every new commander takes over every year from each member country.

OTAN would employ the principle of mutual defence. Attack on one member would be considerd attack against all. In this situation who would dare attack OTAN members. Certainly not Iran or any local powers. OTAN forces could be deployed in Yeman as defensive-offensive operation to secure OTAN member KSA's flank. In this scenario I would have no issues with Pak elemts of a OTAN force fighting Iranian sponsored groups or even Iranian soldiers. This would be a strategic force with strategic interests and that would mean fighting for other members even if you don't have beef with that country on the premise that if we get attacked then others would come to your aid and not look on.

MODEL IT ON NATO

And this is how it pans out in Afghanistan

However this is not what KSA/GCC wants. Instead it wants to create a master/dog relationship. Dog does this. Then throw a bone. Next day dog do this then throw a bone. This keeps the dog beholden to the master. I give example of England in Middle Ages. The King would rule in his full regalia and might. Poor people would walk and stand outside the palace in the vain hope of getting audience. If they were lucky they got a chance to meet the King. They would say 'I beg your majesty but I am poor and my children are hungry please help me' and the king might turn to his court staff and hand him some money. The poor guy would walk out praising the king like a god and thanking him profusively and saying if ever his majesty wants anything he will be their to serve him. This was arbitrary. It made the poor guy a begger and made the king like a god. Every time he helped somebody all the praise his ego got massaged. It was a power trip for the rulers but made beggers out of the common folk.

Today everything has been institionalized. You get sick you go to the NHS hospital and everybody is treated equally. You want justice you go to police or the courts and everrybody legally has free acces to the law. Your poor you go to the welfare agency and they will give you money as matter of law and not a favour. The queen instead today is just a figurehad.

KSA/GCC similarly want to keep one to relationship where they buy out services from Pakistan without developing institutional structures. Now compare the West. NATO acts as a joint defence organization. EU acts like common market that helps out any country in trouble or those that are poor. We all know how many $100s of billions were given to Greece as bailout by EU.

MODEL IT ON EU

@Khafee @Saif al-Arab


I propose Trans-Arabian Cooperation Organization (TACO) :partay: :partay: :partay:

SXlHTfg.jpg


Pakistan and GCC (TACO) have divergent geopolitical goals so any alliance based on mutual defence is a non-starter. Pakistan's regional rival is India with whom we have fought a few wars while GCC's regional rival is Iran. Pakistan has no history of conflict with Iran and GCC has no history of conflict with India. TACO implies Pakistan and GCC take on new enemies. This is a tough sales pitch in international politics.

Unions, like the United Kingdom and European Union, are built upon regional cooperation. Ergo, GCC is a workable idea.

tX2PYkg.png


Pakistan and GCC do not share a border. In the past, Pakistan was in a union with no shared borders. Should I remind people what was the outcome of that union?

e2Zo7QU.jpg


TACO won't sell in GCC or Pakistan because (a) it is not regional and (b) Arabs will be forced to fight India in case of a war. Now keep in mind, both Pakistan and India have nuclear weapons.

Pakistan does have other regional cooperation models without defence pacts, i.e.,
Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), Economic Cooperation Organization (ECO), South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) and now defunct Regional Cooperation for Development (RCD).


Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO):

TpB0RFF.jpg



Economic Cooperation Organization (ECO):

5M1QBuB.png
 
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My point exactly we need to an alliance of Muslim countries but not under the leadership of suads or arab kings!

A prerequisite to joining any alliance - the alliance members must firmly state that they support our position on Kashmir - liberating IoK from the occupiers.

Any country that wouldn't say that fearing it might piss off India is not an ally!

So I must add - I'm not even remotely interested in this 40 nation bullshit alliance. Unless the other 39 nations agree to fight our wars!
 
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And you think Russian's and Iranian's started the Syrian fiasco? What you get your news from Fox news or Israel Times newspaper.

It was USA and Saudia that began the Syrian fiasco that then ran out of control to the ketchup it is today.

I don't think they started it but they also got dirty in it...
 
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I don't think they started it but they also got dirty in it...

They did bro plus russia is pist about oil price, when saudis lowered theres and now saudis are crying and cutting back but taking it out on oversea workers like paks. We can argue that russia has done more positive for pakistan than saudis have. iran on other hand is like stuck up girl.
 
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I propose Trans-Arabian Cooperation Organization (TACO) :partay: :partay: :partay:

SXlHTfg.jpg


Pakistan and GCC (TACO) have divergent geopolitical goals so any alliance based on mutual defence is a non-starter. Pakistan's regional rival is India with whom we have fought a few wars while GCC's regional rival is Iran. Pakistan has no history of conflict with Iran and GCC has no history of conflict with India. TACO implies Pakistan and GCC take on new enemies. This is a tough sales pitch in international politics.

Unions, like the Great Britain and European Union, are built upon regional cooperation. Ergo, GCC is a workable idea.

tX2PYkg.png


Pakistan and GCC do not share a border. In the past, Pakistan was in a union with no shared borders. Should I remind people what was the outcome of that union?

e2Zo7QU.jpg


Regardless of my personal views, one must confront reality, i.e., TACO will not sell in GCC or Pakistan because (a) it is not regional and (b) Arabs will be forced to fight India in case of a war. Now keep in mind, both Pakistan and India have nuclear weapons.

Pakistan does have other regional cooperation models without defence pacts, i.e.,
Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), Economic Cooperation Organization (ECO), South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) and now defunct Regional Cooperation for Development (RCD).


Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO):

TpB0RFF.jpg



Economic Cooperation Organization (ECO):

5M1QBuB.png

You forgot to mention
220px-CAREC_logo.svg.png
!

Map_carec1.png


Source for pics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia_Regional_Economic_Cooperation_Program
 
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They did bro plus russia is pist about oil price, when saudis lowered theres and now saudis are crying and cutting back but taking it out on oversea workers like paks. We can argue that russia has done more positive for pakistan than saudis have. iran on other hand is like stuck up girl.

I respect your opinion...
 
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Will Arabs accept a non Arab military leader?
It is an Islamic coalition against terrorism, not an Arab coalition, there are 40 Muslim countries in it, with HQ in KSA..

Although I can see where you're coming from and it can be a likely consequence that they have more influence on our armed forces, but the same could happen the other way round too, we could end up gaining more influence on not just Saudi but all other Muslim countries' too..From what I've heard, Saudi coalition in Yemen and Saudi military and intelligence planners have failed to secure tactical victories in Syria against Bashar also..They need a sound military mind to sort their command and control/decision making problems..to be frank, they need the battle hardened professionals and have realized the shortfall of command at their end. In terms of military leadership and professionalism, we can teach them a lot. I think if this coalition isnt formed on sectarian grounds(referring to the three conditions put forward-hopefully the rumors are true) I think it might be a good thing for Pakistan in general and Pak Military in particualr. I have a strong feeling this will give a boost to our military exports also, our defence industry sure would love that boost also.
The underlined is not true, the rest is good enough..
 
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WE need Turkish style nationalism and think green, talk green, breath green and bleed green.

pro-erdogan-demonstration-munich-germany-july-people-turkish-origin-came-to-to-support-prime-minister-turkey-recep-32447029.jpg


image.jpg


And you think Russian's and Iranian's started the Syrian fiasco? What you get your news from Fox news or Israel Times newspaper.

It was USA and Saudia that began the Syrian fiasco that then ran out of control to the ketchup it is today.


If nationalist parties in Pakistan gain popularity then you can expect the supporters to also display a sea of Pakistan flags.

For now, parties like PMLN and PPP put their own parties before their interests of the nation. Rather than advocate for more nationalism, you should criticize the current mainstream parties for not putting Pakistan first.
 
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A prerequisite to joining any alliance - the alliance members must firmly state that they support our position on Kashmir - liberating IoK from the occupiers.

Any country that wouldn't say that fearing it might piss off India is not an ally!

So I must add - I'm not even remotely interested in this 40 nation bullshit alliance. Unless the other 39 nations agree to fight our wars!
You went to an extreme, since Kashmir is still a UN issue, any nation of the coalition who suffers from terrorism can call upon the coalition forces, So it is first of all, mandatory that a member country calls upon help first,, the coalition seems to be made for the weakest Muslim countries who can not defend themselves properly against militias or other terrorist organizations and in general for every member country.. It is mainly a Muslim's countries stabilization tool..The lessons were taken from Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Libya..
 
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Lets see what happens...Russia and China , unlike west, surely want stabilize middle east...
That is true, they have supplanted the US who's interests lied with Usrael alone, who in fact along with its supporters benefits most from a destabilized Middle East.., China and Russian will most probably go for win/win situations, the US will try to keep what is left of its bases and assets in the area, but their destabilizing effort will be kept in check by regional and international partners..
 
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My point exactly we need to an alliance of Muslim countries but not under the leadership of suads or arab kings!


Only us Pakistanis ever ask for this. Other Muslims don't. UNTIL they do, we need to shelf this idea. Unfortunately a lot of Muslims would genocide their own or other Muslims just to please their american gods. Saddam's Hussein against the Iranians 1980-88 is a fine example of this.

Terrorist groups will always work to undermine Pakistan as long as they don't get their demands.

I don't want Pakistan to start fully enforcing Sharia law, nor do I want various regions of Pakistan to declare their independence. Even if locals don't want to fight for such groups, backed by intelligence agencies they will import fighters from Central Asia, North Africa, or the Middle East. Regions we need to cooperate with to destroy terrorism

The nationalism next door is idiotic, but in Turkey and Russia its just regular nationalism, and while we should have love and ambition for our country, we also need to be humble as per the traditions of Islam. Anything more than normal nationalist ideals is always dangerous.


More like the various ethnic groups want a part of the Pakistani pie as we are rising, becoming more advanced and powerful.
 
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