GE-HAL 🇮🇳 deal to pave the way for 80% transfer of technology of jet engines by value

[NG Missile Vessels]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1669926108924645376

 

[NG Missile Vessels]

What exactly is "new" here that DMRL and HAL haven't done already?
@CallSignMaverick @Vikramaditya-I @Cheepek @Skull and Bones @Raj-Hindustani

 

[CallSignMaverick]

What exactly is "new" here that DMRL and HAL haven't done already?
@CallSignMaverick @Vikramaditya-I @Cheepek @Skull and Bones @Raj-Hindustani

No idea, provide official press release since media won't cover minute details.

 

[NG Missile Vessels]

No idea, provide official press release since media won't cover minute details.

I've only this piece of information bro

 

[-=virus=-]

Oh well it's a start. BC Kaveri ka kya hua, dead in the water, shelved, bas ki nahi thi ? Russians ne RD 93s etc ki tech nahi di ?

 

[NG Missile Vessels]

Oh well it's a start. BC Kaveri ka kya hua, dead in the water, shelved, bas ki nahi thi ? Russians ne RD 93s etc ki tech nahi di ?

Now current problem in kaveri is:
After burner
Metallurgy
Whereas engine is not producing expected thrust

https://twitter.com/x/status/1648375614997659648

 

[-=virus=-]

Now current problem in kaveri is:
After burner
Metallurgy
Whereas engine is not producing ecpected thrust

https://twitter.com/x/status/1648375614997659648

Yeah, that's the big one. Friend of mine works for RR (aviation) in the UK as an engineer, he's in the GA civvie stuff but still had to sign a bunch of non disclosure type contracts, they do hire foreigners in the military aviation department too but apparently its quite the process, he said it wasn't worth his time waiting to be vetted/verified.

Even when here on a break, and not that I have any serious knowledge about the whole thing, he doesn't talk about, will deflect whatever noob stupid question I ask him. Asked him about metallurgy and the science behind turbofan blades, all he said that its a closely guarded trade situation (state secret level) and that the company worries about espionage a lot. GE and P&W are even stricter. Guy is just some random not very high level engineer there, still.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Oh well it's a start. BC Kaveri ka kya hua, dead in the water, shelved, bas ki nahi thi ? Russians ne RD 93s etc ki tech nahi di ?

This is total incompetent to observed the high tech.

Here they move to another tech for TOT for nothing

Still unsure what is use for TOT of scorpion class Submarines.... If we can not build the new one by own

 

[indushek]

What exactly is "new" here that DMRL and HAL haven't done already?
@CallSignMaverick @Vikramaditya-I @Cheepek @Skull and Bones @Raj-Hindustani
[/QUOTE]

From what I understand, whoever conceptualized this Kaveri program, messed up in more than one way. Firstly by taking on a impossible task, of designing and developing a turbofan engine in the same class as F404. Then not taking any outside help, given our zero experience in this field.

Of all the articles and videos I saw, we were stuck with metallurgical issues heavily.
The engine couldn't sustain the needed thrust, and threw blades in initial prototypes if I remember correctly.
The single crystal blade technology had to be mastered, and no one will give this highly sought after tech.
Then there was also an issue of higher overall weight of the engine itself, which makes it lethargic I suppose due to overweight of the power plant itself.
Another issue was in high altitude tests, it was found that the engine was producing rattling noise. I am not a technical guy, but this is again something to do with the engine blades and heat resistance I suppose.

I have also read in few online pages that, NASA has always passed on info to these engine manufacturing firms, the knowledge on heat resistance and metals etc. Perhaps our DMRL guys should have pulled in ISRO, but for that Indian babu attitude will come in way. One has to accept, that we failed and please help us. In short bad planning, bad management of project timelines, and not accepting faults.

Ones blood burns when you read snippets on this project, and how Kaveri had to be decoupled from Tejas project because it wasn't ready in time.

However all is not bad, if reports are correct the engine at its core is now stable. This means we did master the single crystal tech, but I don't think we are at the level of West material science wise.

We should also remember, the funding given to this project was some 3 billion dollars or something. No way such measly amount can help develop a state of the art engine, as tens of billions of dollars are spent (as I have read online, am no expert) to bring the tech to a successful level.

Engine tech has applications in different ways, and I mean militarily and commercially. The principles of turbofan and turbo jet engines are somewhat similar (Experts can comment), so if you develop at least one the way for the other is opened. If am not wrong same can be put to use in marine vessels, by developing a sea variant. No wonder we never got any tech transfer on this, even from Russians. They helped with our Nuke sub program remember, but they didn't on Kaveri (why would we go to France, if Russia would have agreed? Although it is said even Russians haven't mastered engine tech fully, as their engines are bulkier than western ones)

So considering all the above, we getting a engine like F414 (Even if some amount of tech transfer it is), will help in our knowledge. The important thing though is, the kaveri dry program shouldn't be abandoned again like before.
Oh and you got any interest on exact issues in a more technical way about Kaveri, check below video as to where we missed or messed up.

 

[vikan]

From what I understand, whoever conceptualized this Kaveri program, messed up in more than one way. Firstly by taking on a impossible task, of designing and developing a turbofan engine in the same class as F404. Then not taking any outside help, given our zero experience in this field.

Of all the articles and videos I saw, we were stuck with metallurgical issues heavily.
The engine couldn't sustain the needed thrust, and threw blades in initial prototypes if I remember correctly.
The single crystal blade technology had to be mastered, and no one will give this highly sought after tech.
Then there was also an issue of higher overall weight of the engine itself, which makes it lethargic I suppose due to overweight of the power plant itself.
Another issue was in high altitude tests, it was found that the engine was producing rattling noise. I am not a technical guy, but this is again something to do with the engine blades and heat resistance I suppose.

I have also read in few online pages that, NASA has always passed on info to these engine manufacturing firms, the knowledge on heat resistance and metals etc. Perhaps our DMRL guys should have pulled in ISRO, but for that Indian babu attitude will come in way. One has to accept, that we failed and please help us. In short bad planning, bad management of project timelines, and not accepting faults.

Ones blood burns when you read snippets on this project, and how Kaveri had to be decoupled from Tejas project because it wasn't ready in time.

However all is not bad, if reports are correct the engine at its core is now stable. This means we did master the single crystal tech, but I don't think we are at the level of West material science wise.

We should also remember, the funding given to this project was some 3 billion dollars or something. No way such measly amount can help develop a state of the art engine, as tens of billions of dollars are spent (as I have read online, am no expert) to bring the tech to a successful level.

Engine tech has applications in different ways, and I mean militarily and commercially. The principles of turbofan and turbo jet engines are somewhat similar (Experts can comment), so if you develop at least one the way for the other is opened. If am not wrong same can be put to use in marine vessels, by developing a sea variant. No wonder we never got any tech transfer on this, even from Russians. They helped with our Nuke sub program remember, but they didn't on Kaveri (why would we go to France, if Russia would have agreed? Although it is said even Russians haven't mastered engine tech fully, as their engines are bulkier than western ones)

So considering all the above, we getting a engine like F414 (Even if some amount of tech transfer it is), will help in our knowledge. The important thing though is, the kaveri dry program shouldn't be abandoned again like before.
Oh and you got any interest on exact issues in a more technical way about Kaveri, check below video as to where we missed or messed up.

I have also heard that not everything is doom and gloom with the kaveri engine, it might end up powering our ucavs, thats still a large number of engines if what i read about the number of ucavs to be built is correct.

 

[-=virus=-]

From what I understand, whoever conceptualized this Kaveri program, messed up in more than one way. Firstly by taking on a impossible task, of designing and developing a turbofan engine in the same class as F404. Then not taking any outside help, given our zero experience in this field.

Of all the articles and videos I saw, we were stuck with metallurgical issues heavily.
The engine couldn't sustain the needed thrust, and threw blades in initial prototypes if I remember correctly.
The single crystal blade technology had to be mastered, and no one will give this highly sought after tech.
Then there was also an issue of higher overall weight of the engine itself, which makes it lethargic I suppose due to overweight of the power plant itself.
Another issue was in high altitude tests, it was found that the engine was producing rattling noise. I am not a technical guy, but this is again something to do with the engine blades and heat resistance I suppose.

I have also read in few online pages that, NASA has always passed on info to these engine manufacturing firms, the knowledge on heat resistance and metals etc. Perhaps our DMRL guys should have pulled in ISRO, but for that Indian babu attitude will come in way. One has to accept, that we failed and please help us. In short bad planning, bad management of project timelines, and not accepting faults.

Ones blood burns when you read snippets on this project, and how Kaveri had to be decoupled from Tejas project because it wasn't ready in time.

However all is not bad, if reports are correct the engine at its core is now stable. This means we did master the single crystal tech, but I don't think we are at the level of West material science wise.

We should also remember, the funding given to this project was some 3 billion dollars or something. No way such measly amount can help develop a state of the art engine, as tens of billions of dollars are spent (as I have read online, am no expert) to bring the tech to a successful level.

Engine tech has applications in different ways, and I mean militarily and commercially. The principles of turbofan and turbo jet engines are somewhat similar (Experts can comment), so if you develop at least one the way for the other is opened. If am not wrong same can be put to use in marine vessels, by developing a sea variant. No wonder we never got any tech transfer on this, even from Russians. They helped with our Nuke sub program remember, but they didn't on Kaveri (why would we go to France, if Russia would have agreed? Although it is said even Russians haven't mastered engine tech fully, as their engines are bulkier than western ones)

So considering all the above, we getting a engine like F414 (Even if some amount of tech transfer it is), will help in our knowledge. The important thing though is, the kaveri dry program shouldn't be abandoned again like before.
Oh and you got any interest on exact issues in a more technical way about Kaveri, check below video as to where we missed or messed up.

I'm no expert but that made me lol. Marine propulsion, while still a science and complicated, is nowhere near turbofans in terms of complexity. I guess we're producing turboshafts for helos but ?

Dunno, maybe someone here knows more.

 

[indushek]

I have also heard that not everything is doom and gloom with the kaveri engine, it might end up powering our ucavs, thats still a large number of engines if what i read about the number of ucavs to be built is correct.

Yes but in current form, as per reported figures it gives only 48 to 49 KN of thrust. It also has no afterburner section, and there is no info on if work on this is happening or not. Lot of more work has to be done, and the saddest thing is India doesn't even have a high altitude testing facility in country. It is always sent to Russia for testing, on a IL 76 platform if am not wrong.

Further the LCA MK1 jets get the F404 engine, the news above is for a more higher thrust engine F414. If we are still struggling with lower class engine, when will we move on to higher power engines? There seems to be something adaptive cycle engine tech, to do with higher power and efficiency or higher efficient engines (Either of the two). We are just playing catch up

A parallel program has to be run, where a afterburner section is developed and then at least one or two Tejas prototypes are coupled with local engine to test it. If am not wrong, a fighter jet goes through multiple engines in its life time, so even if its a decade or two late , Kaveri can make it to Tejas at some point. Not sure what the babus are doing on this front though.

I'm no expert but that made me lol. Marine propulsion, while still a science and complicated, is nowhere near turbofans in terms of complexity. I guess we're producing turboshafts for helos but ?

Dunno, maybe someone here knows more.

Really, if its not that complex why do we still get Marine engines from outside?

There is a Kaveri marine engine in development. Here

Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India

Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine engine is a derivative of Kaveri engine developed for Naval ship propulsion. Gas turbine when used in the propulsion system of ship platform, offers significant operational advantages at battle field in terms of high acceleration rate, high speed, low preparation time...

www.drdo.gov.in

 

[vikan]

Yes but in current form, as per reported figures it gives only 48 to 49 KN of thrust. It also has no afterburner section, and there is no info on if work on this is happening or not. Lot of more work has to be done, and the saddest thing is India doesn't even have a high altitude testing facility in country. It is always sent to Russia for testing, on a IL 76 platform if am not wrong.

Further the LCA MK1 jets get the F404 engine, the news above is for a more higher thrust engine F414. If we are still struggling with lower class engine, when will we move on to higher power engines? There seems to be something adaptive cycle engine tech, to do with higher power and efficiency or higher efficient engines (Either of the two). We are just playing catch up

A parallel program has to be run, where a afterburner section is developed and then at least one or two Tejas prototypes are coupled with local engine to test it. If am not wrong, a fighter jet goes through multiple engines in its life time, so even if its a decade or two late , Kaveri can make it to Tejas at some point. Not sure what the babus are doing on this front though.


Really, if its not that complex why do we still get Marine engines from outside?

There is a Kaveri marine engine in development. Here

Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India

Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine engine is a derivative of Kaveri engine developed for Naval ship propulsion. Gas turbine when used in the propulsion system of ship platform, offers significant operational advantages at battle field in terms of high acceleration rate, high speed, low preparation time...

www.drdo.gov.in

There is still much for me to learn about engines and India's efforts, untill then i can only parrot what little i learned and understood. Seems the kaveri either in current format or they are confident they can get a configuration in the near future, will power ghatak, if not the lca. As for a parallel program, i dont know how deasible it will be bith from money and timeline oerspective

 

[indushek]

There is still much for me to learn about engines and India's efforts, untill then i can only parrot what little i learned and understood. Seems the kaveri either in current format or they are confident they can get a configuration in the near future, will power ghatak, if not the lca. As for a parallel program, i dont know how deasible it will be bith from money and timeline oerspective

Well its same for me, am just parroting what I have been reading for some time now.
Its true that Ghatak will be powered by Kaveri dry

Thing is from what I read, certification for a engine isn't done for the core part. Its done for a engine with after burner section added it seems.

So while the Kaveri dry has returned from Russia after passing high altitude tests, don't think its certified yet due to no afterburner section. Guess they wanted to first be sure on the core section, before working on afterburner
.
For Ghatak there doesn't seem to be a need of afterburner, so don't think there is no issue with timeline there at least. There is news of Godrej Boyce being given order of, manufacturing 8 Kaveri dry engines. Maybe for some more tests, before finalizing for Ghatak UCAV (supposed to be fly in 2024 or 2025).

Money will be a issue yes, if we think working parallel to GE deal and production of these engines in India, should mean no more funds are to be allocated for this. Timeline though isn't an issue, as all engine needs of India are now covered (except for AMCA, as it needs a 120 KN engine). Even for AMCA though either GE or RR will be coming in, so Kaveri has no timeline issue on it. India has time to work in peace, as this will come in to use at some point in future for sure. However it all depends on the babus and if they have foresight.

 

[NG Missile Vessels]

DRDO lab to get knowhow of critical tech as part of GE deal, will help indigenous engine programmes: Officials

Gas Turbine Research Establishment– a DRDO lab involved in the development of indigenous engines– would be part of the proposed deal with American GE for manufacturing jet engines in India, which would help them gain expertise in the field, government officials said.

The officials said the American firm in an “unprecedented move” is sharing manufacturing technology for engines which is 80 per cent by cost. GTRE is a Defence Research and Development Organisation laboratory based in Bengaluru and has developed the Kaveri engine which was supposed to originally power the LCA Tejas aircraft variants.

Due to delays in the project, India has been forced to go for the GE-404 engines for the initial 123 LCA aircraft and GE-414s for the LCA Mark 2 and the fifth generation planes planned to be produced in India.
Government officials said, subsequently the percentage of the Transfer of Technologies (ToT) is expected to increase further.
With this Transfer of Technology, the parts will be made in the country and GTRE will be receiving all the know-how including that of processes and coatings for the crystal blades etc will be transferred.

Officials said the proposed ToT is unprecedented and GE has not transferred this level of ToT even to their NATO allies.

India has plans of going in for another bigger jet aircraft engine to power its futuristic versions of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft for which it has been in talks with the French side.

The deal may be announced during PM Narendra Modi’s visit to the US in the coming week.

https://aninews.in/news/national/general-news/drdo-lab-to-get-knowhow-of-critical-tech-as-part-of-ge-deal-will-help-indigenous-engine-programmes-officials20230618201847/