SPOILERS ALERT in this post.
@Cookie Monster
Thanks for detailed responses; appreciated. Even though I disagree with some of your points but credit where due.
THE NUMBERS GAME
Night King's commanders/officers were about 100 strong when they breached the wall - confirmed in the script of the Episode 7 of Season 7. The undead were about 100,000 strong at this point.
In that case I'm not sure why they didnt illustrate it as per the script. Throughout the series they have never shown the night king's commanders to be more than 20. He created those from male live human babies that Craster used to sacrifice to him(and I guess through some other means before that)...so if there were hundreds, the show has clearly never made the choice to depict them as such. In each instance where they were shown...like in the episode where they turn craster's son into a white walker, or the attack at hard home, or when the night king attacked the three eyed raven's hideout, or in this last episode...in all these instances they were shown to be few in numbers...less than 20.
However if it says that in the script that the white walkers number in hundreds...I'll take ur word for it. I was wrong then. It's just that it makes no logical sense why the night king didnt show up with all his might to attack winterfell and kill bran...what was so important than killing the three eyes raven that his other white walkers were busy doing...anyways I digress.
However, by the time the undead reached Winterfell, they could be like 200,000+ strong due to additional kills that were mostly off-screen including the ill-fated House Umber (one of the largest in the North). Above all, the Night King could continue to add to their numbers with his powers which actually happen during the course of the battle. And it wasn't like one man could take like 10 undead down all by himself; in fact, the kill ratio was almost 1:1 (living versus the undead) because the undead wouldn't tire, feel pain, run away and such. In fact, huge quantities of dragon glass is the only reason why the living lasted so long in a major battle against the undead and why some men were able to achieve disproportionate amount of kills with collaboration and tactics.
Yeah what i was trying to convey with that...is even if for example the Dothraki could kill 100 undead zombies for each Dothraki that fell...it was still a rather stupid move to charge at them in open field...bcuz the end goal isn't trying to eliminate the undead zombies(that's impossible with their huge numbers, not feeling pain, not tiring, etc. and the night king being able to just raise more). The real battle is to kill the night king and/or his lieutenants. This requires holding off the undead zombie hordes for as long as possible. Hence the best strategy against the horde is the one that gives the living the most time with the least casualties(as in distance + cover + long ranged attacks).
So yes, the living were essentially f***ed irrespective of how they would choose to fight.
They were but there's no point in just giving up...might as well try to fight even if the chances are so very grim and it seems ur fate is sealed...why not try ur luck at that fraction of a chance of survival...bcuz if u die then oh well it would've happened even without a fight...but if u survive then it's amazing and u beat the insurmountable odds.
That's why they needed to fight in a manner and with a strategy that seemed befitting of the characters in charge of the planning. A bunch of those characters present in that room devising the strategies have shown amazing capabilities in terms of battle planning...so when they executed that shit show of charging with Dothraki and getting them killed in a matter of seconds...it seemed so unlike what Jon/Jaime/Tyrion(with added inputs of others) would come up with.
PREPARATION CHALLENGES
Preparations in Winterfell could benefit from additional time. Mining dragon glass and shipping it in huge quantities from the stronghold of Daenerys (Dragonstone) to the stronghold of the House Stark (Winterfell) would require enormous logistics lines (stretching 2700 KM in longevity), and the ships could not reach Winterfell so there's that.
Right...as u will notice when I listed the timeline that winterfell had...from Jon being proclaimed King in the North to him showing up with Dany...I never mentioned anywhere winterfell having prepared defenses with dragon glass included. The dragon glass didnt come into the picture until much later...mainly due to some disagreements between Jon and Dany...and then eventually when he was allowed to mine it...the time it took to mine, ship, and forge it...it pretty much was almost the time of battle.
When I said winterfell(Sansa) had more time to prepare defenses...that means more layers of defenses. In the episode they only had one trench and then the castle...which basically means one defensive layer. Once they are forced to retreat from the outskirts of the castle to behind the walls...that's all they have...once the castle fell all hope was lost. What winterfell ppl(probably with help from Eyrie) in that long time could've done is make more trenches, more traps, and possibly more defensive structures even just something quick and easy like wooden palisade walls. The idea being to slow down the advancing hordes of undead zombies who would otherwise overrun u quite easily. The more they could slow them down, the more they could pummel them with catapults, arrows, dragon fire. The more time they could buy...the more numbers they could reduce. Then of course when dragon glass arrived...that would've provided the additional boost.
In the show during the previous season before Jon left he talked about the northern threat as the biggest threat and that no other wars matter at this point. He told them that he even made peace with wildlings bcuz it was necessary for survival. All the northerners and Sansa know Jon's character and that he is a man of honor who doesn't lie and other such things. So they basically knew that their king was telling the truth and this threat is so severe that it makes battling Cersei look like child's play...and what do they do in his absence...nothing...other than gather and store food I guess and invite ppl from surrounding villages into winterfell. That's only partially logistical side of the war...and pretty much nothing in the way of any strategy or defenses.
OBSTACLES - THE NIGHT KING LAUGHS
Irrespective of how many obstacles the living could lay outside the castle and on its walls, the undead were too many to stop. The undead giants were also involved and clearing obstacles on the surface.
yes of course the obstacles can be cleared. The Night King and the White walkers have been shown putting out fires just by walking through it. The Night King has a dragon with which he took down something as massive as the wall and the undead zombies have been shown to climb, crawl, and dig their way through pretty much anything...so what's ur point? Should they just abandon all sorts of defenses bcuz those defenses can be taken down? Should a knight stop wearing armor just bcuz swords could still thrust through? Defense is defense...just bcuz ur enemy can overcome it doesn't mean one should make the enemy's job easier by not having any defenses in the first place...all due to the reasoning being that it can be overcome. The purpose of these defensive structure isn't to hold back the night king and his army forever...bcuz not even a giant ice wall with magic could do that...the purpose is to slow them down enough to buy some time(as much as possible) for the living to get to and somehow kill the Night King.
THE LIVING HELD THEIR OWN
I would say that the living had amassed a far more powerful and capable force at present in comparison to what was possible back in the days of the First Men and the Children of the Forest, and the living had surprises of their own on top [1]. Winterfell was constructed AFTER the Long Night event, and built in a way to serve as a bastion of resistance and draw attention of the Night King. Even though the dead had ruined much of the castle during the course of the battle, it provided a fighting chance to the living and pockets of well-trained humans continued to offer resistance to the undead in different sections of the structure.
[1] Arya Stark is a Faceless Man and not only an exceptionally skilled fighter but with a tactical mind - in Winterfell, she knew what to do and how to maneuver. This was the ultimate surprise that lay in store for the Night King - on a second thought.
which is why I mentioned in one of my posts before our interaction to another member that it's perfectly fine if this time around the long night ended in one night as opposed to the last one that supposedly took a whole generation. I dont take an issue with the Night King's demise...just the manner in which it was done. Again it was uncharacteristic of the show.
Link of my old post.
Game of Thrones fans?
POOR VISIBILITY due to 'stormy conditions' was the greatest issue which prevented the living from fighting effectively besides the Dothraki blunder. These factors created lot of complications for the living unfortunately - their battle-related cohesion and strategies fell apart consequently.
And that's fine...I dont take an issue with things that are realistic. I take an issue with writers rushing the show in a manner that they end up showing things that seem like those characters wouldn't do. We see Jon going in detail about the battle plan when he was planning his battle against Ramsay...he takes into account intricate details such as the possibility of being flanked and getting caught in a pinsir. Moreover he has witnessed what happened at hardhome and yet he doesn't utter even a disagreement let alone changing the strategy when it comes to having the Dothraki charge on an open field. He has shown to be a capable commander on numerous occasion...he isn't dull when it comes to battle planning...and yet here he went with a strategy that a person would go with only if they have never fought the undead zombie horde before. This is what I mean by uncharacteristic.
If the Night King wasn't in the picture, Daenerys would have taken over the King's Landing with laughable ease, but she is back to the drawing board now.
But let us take time to praise the Unsullied and Dothraki - extraordinarily brave factions and lived up to their reputation like always. Even in the face of the overwhelming odds - the likes of which mankind stood little chance against.
The discipline of the Unsullied even in the face of such poor visibility and massive onslaught of the undead - AMAZING by any measure.
Yes and they could've fared better too in terms of survival had they mostly stayed and fought from behind cover(like castle walls)...
...a majority of those who fought outside the castle(Dothraki and Unsullied) are dead...a majority of survivors are the ones who fought from defensive positions to start with. This is why winterfell ppl(under Sansa) should've built more defensive structures.
The northerners were literally a joke in comparison though I cannot blame them. If it weren't for the unsullied, the castle would have fallen much earlier.
The northerners were supposed to be fierce fighters in battle much like the wildlings...as per their reputation mentioned a few times in the show. However during this time(by the time of this battle), they are a mere shadow of their original self. After Ned Stark's demise, they took heavy casualties in the ensuing civil war under Robb's command. Although Robb won battle after battle, he knew he didnt have the numbers not the resources to win the war. Once Robb was betrayed, the Boltons forced some of the houses to support them...while other houses stayed out of that mess if they could. Then more northerners died fighting for Ramsay Bolton against Stannis and then more died in the battle of the bastards. So after an onslaught of constant war and strife and power shifting hands rather quickly with barely any central command...I wouldn't expect much from the ashes of this once powerful(relatively speaking) northern army that remains.
Really painful to see such a brilliant army reduced to a mere shadow of its formerself...
Yeah I was a fan of the Dothraki(modelled after the mongols) and the Unsullied loosely based on the phalanx. Although I expected as such...these huge numbers of casualties...just not in the manner it happened. Still Daenerys should be able to take the Iron throne. Two dragons against mere mortal humans(unlike the Night King) is still a huge advantage. Cersei does have those powerful ballista, which might take down one of her dragons but still Dany would do massive damage before that happens.
However if I was Dany, i would use the services of Arya. Cersei is already on her list...why bother fighting a huge war with tons of casualties and risk possibly losing...when Arya can practically face change into someone like Euron to get close to Cersei and slit her throat. With her gone Dany can practically take the throne unchallenged. I dont think Jon is the type of person who would go to war and get thousands of ppl killed all so he can sit on the throne...plus he loves Dany...so he would just give it up without much resistance. But I have a feeling that's not how it would play out in the series.
