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Future Pakistan-Turkish defense cooperation likely to be incremental, for now

u r right in general sense, but how can we along with turkey alone will be able to bear the costs and R&D of this project?
More partners along with GCC countries money can make this truly happen. And its not just aircraft, i want us to go same in UAV, Tanks, Ships and subs too.
GCC wont spend money with Turkey; you must remember these are sold out self-titular states who have no interest in general public welfare or nation building. Indonesia yes, they have a good aeronautical complex and proven track record.
 
Upgrading existing aircrafts doesn’t help any state to reveal a 5th generation stealth technology. It requires revolutionary changes on design to keep weapons on internal pylons and advanced sensor, processor combination inside the body so 5th generation aircrafts look bigger in naked eyes but seem smaller on radar cause of complex geometric calculations, materials and paints. Turkey develops two manned, jet powered aircrafts. HürJet will be a CAS fighter/advanced trainer of Turkish Army but Hürjet program have a secret agenda as being a test-bed of subsystems, mission computer, flight computers, electro-optics, avionics and electronic warfare sensors. This aircraft will make maiden flight before TF-X and We will see the efficiency of technology developed for it, then apply similar systems for Tf-X.

In unmanned programs, There is a collaboration between TAI and Baykar to develop a jet powered stealth fighter drone that will make first flight in 2023.


Its not often mentioned that the JF17 was substantially developed by Mikoyen Group. Depending on how Russia feels, they can be engaged again.
 
Upgrading existing aircrafts doesn’t help any state to reveal a 5th generation stealth technology. It requires revolutionary changes on design to keep weapons on internal pylons and advanced sensor, processor combination inside the body so 5th generation aircrafts look bigger in naked eyes but seem smaller on radar cause of complex geometric calculations, materials and paints. Turkey develops two manned, jet powered aircrafts. HürJet will be a CAS fighter/advanced trainer of Turkish Army but Hürjet program have a secret agenda as being a test-bed of subsystems, mission computer, flight computers, electro-optics, avionics and electronic warfare sensors. This aircraft will make maiden flight before TF-X and We will see the efficiency of technology developed for it, then apply similar systems for Tf-X.

In unmanned programs, There is a collaboration between TAI and Baykar to develop a jet powered stealth fighter drone that will make first flight in 2023.


Exactly, a 4th gen A/C has a drastically different aerodynamics than a stealthy 5th A/C. Also JF17 has a small airframe so internal bays are out of the question and it cannot accommodate many of the subsystems required. However, JF17 block-4 can be made a semi stealthy A/C with use of REM, advanced composite material, better exhaust, slight changes in the airframe to reduce the RCS and a lot of 5th gen features. JF17 being a smaller A/C already has a smaller RCS and with further decrement it can become virtually undetectable at longer ranges and it would definitely be cheaper than a pure 5.5 gen A/C so it can be produced in larger number to accompany the next gen. brother.
 
GCC wont spend money with Turkey; you must remember these are sold out self-titular states who have no interest in general public welfare or nation building. Indonesia yes, they have a good aeronautical complex and proven track record.
They will now because of Pakistan, guarantees will come from here.......If not Qatar is there, so is Oman, Kuwait etc....U need to realize that main thing in such a project for future will always be Pakistan then Turkey when it comes to aeronautics for now. As already mentioned by Kaiser Taufail in OP, Pakistan has an edge over turkey here since she has experience in working with a new design as a joint venture, a venture which Pakistan still owns 58%.

It would be our job to give guarantees and ensure that projects like these can become unifying factor for everybody. Afterall, we have brought KSA to invest in Gwadar too 10 billion as a third strategic partner in CPEC and still their independence is guaranteed by us just as Qatar's by Turkey.:azn:

If there is a will there is a way! this can work for MBS's own vision 2030 or contribute towards to industry and technology wise.

Then involve central Asian Muslim countries too at some stage to give them too a pie of share in profits and in project they can bring in their russian knowledge specially Kazakhstan...

In the end u need to remember that nations go for their own benefit Where money is involved everyone jumps in....this is the kind of materialistic world we r living in, money talks bullshit walks!
 
One thing
Many stating Turkey helping with thunder block 4
Problem lies many think that chinese currently not par with western system i wont it is or not
But including turkey in this stage can only help in small area as since thunder is already a joint fighter
It will be better to leave thunder a sole project which work as low end , high capability platform work as main stay for Paf and nations looking for cheaper modern platforms
And do a JV with china , turkey and Pakistan and with chinese expertise it will speed up process as they dont need to reinvet wheel on everything
And they can build that platform for Pakistan tukey and for export
 
They will now because of Pakistan, guarantees will come from here.......If not Qatar is there, so is Oman, Kuwait etc....U need to realize that main thing in such a project for future will always be Pakistan then Turkey when it comes to aeronautics for now. As already mentioned by Kaiser Taufail in OP, Pakistan has an edge over turkey here since she has experience in working with a new design as a joint venture, a venture which Pakistan still owns 58%.

It would be our job to give guarantees and ensure that projects like these can become unifying factor for everybody. Afterall, we have brought KSA to invest in Gwadar too 10 billion as a third strategic partner in CPEC and still their independence is guaranteed by us just as Qatar's by Turkey.:azn:

If there is a will there is a way! this can work for MBS's own vision 2030 or contribute towards to industry and technology wise.

Then involve central Asian Muslim countries too at some stage to give them too a pie of share in profits and in project they can bring in their russian knowledge specially Kazakhstan...

In the end u need to remember that nations go for their own benefit Where money is involved everyone jumps in....this is the kind of materialistic world we r living in, money talks bullshit walks!
It is all money in the end.
 
Gulf Arabs excluding Qatar would never support any Turkish programs. They have a strong tendency to obey the words of US in politic and wasting their money to make US happier in Syria, Iran, Iraq and Israel so Turkish and Gulf state policies are colliding in many points. Qatar would most probably purchase/join into TF-X like strategic programs to support. Qatar has deeper relations with Turkey than we suppose so Qatari money has already been leaked into some of Turkish defence programs under the deals signed JV institutes. Turkish officials also protect Qatari JV institutes working in Turkish defence industry.
 
In ADEX-18, Azerbaijani officials and Air Force head Tahirov has openly expressed their intention to establish partnership/joint production/investment with Turkey on Aircraft projects. They have a plan to visit TAI facilities to discuss the projects in following days. The projects, If happens, will contain partnership on Hürkuş, HürJet and TF-X programs that was mentioned by Tahirov.

https://www.haberturk.com/anka-s-ve-hurkus-un-yeni-rotasi-azerbaycan-2158381-ekonomi
 
Future Pakistan-Turkish defense cooperation likely to be incremental, for now
By: Usman Ansari   September 19, 2018
string of recent deals, analysts believe further cooperation will be incremental.

Speaking to Turkey’s Daily Sabah, Muhammad Syrus Sajjad Qazi highlighted defense relations such as recent deals for platforms like the T-129 helicopter gunships and Milgem corvettes, which he said would further improve as the countries continue to explore new opportunities.

The existing deals alone are likely to see substantial offsets and technological input for Pakistani industry, and build upon existing supply of defense technology critical for all three branches of Pakistan’s military.

Pakistan’s defense industry generally lags behind other nations, and has struggled to offer much in return bar a deal for the PAC Super Mushak basic training aircraft, further highlighting the importance of the relationship between Ankara and Islamabad.

Asked exactly how that relationship may further improve, Brian Cloughley, and author, analyst, and former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, said there is room to do so. He highlighted training as one area of cooperation, thanks to tensions between Pakistan and the U.S., along with armored personnel carriers and future orders of helicopters.

While Turkish AFV-related technology is already finding its way onto Pakistani APCs and tanks, Pakistan is exploring options to supplement or even replace its M113 type APCs, perhaps with an IFV design, with Turkey’s Kaplan or Tulpar IFV programs potentially of interest.

Turkey’s T625 multirole transport helicopter may also be considered to replace Pakistan’s range of legacy types.

Both countries also have active fifth generation fighter development projects, but analysts believe this level of cooperation is presently a step too far.


Justin Bronk, an analyst with the RUSI think tank, raises concerns given “the lack of any proven domestic capacity in both Pakistan and Turkey to produce a fifth-generation fighter, than with any issues around security or industrial interests.”

“Neither country is in any position to develop such capabilities for the foreseeable future without massive external assistance and technology transfer,” he said

That idea is echoed by author, analyst, and former air force pilot Kaiser Tufail, who nevertheless stresses their respective fifth generation programs “must continue for a long-term goal of manufacture”.

Tufail believes both nations should co-operate on an interim type of jet, with some of the technical characteristics of a full fifth-generation fighter “rather than jumping straight to a full-capability fifth generation fighter.”

Though new to aircraft manufacture, he believes Pakistan has gained a slight edge over its potential partner, having co-produced the JF-17, “essentially a Chinese design based on PAF's specifications”, though there is still “need for collaboration in design and production of any new fighter.” Turkey in comparison, though having license produced F-16s, lacks comparable modern fighter design experience.

Their close relationship makes fighter co-production “logical” though, he said.

Therefore, present co-operation “could well take the shape of a ‘Block-4’ JF-17 developed by Turkey and Pakistan” to be “considered for joint design and co-production”, after which “a stealth fighter would then be a logical next step.”


https://www.defensenews.com/global/...cooperation-likely-to-be-incremental-for-now/
 
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