From disco maulvi to liberal fascist

[Kambojaric]

“What’s the point of wearing a headscarf, if she’s going to roam around campus wearing tight jeans like that?” remarked a not-so-conservative friend, while referring to his former crush, after she turned him down. This was LUMS 10 years ago, a campus which shaped and transformed my worldview and those of countless others. I had grown up in Saudi Arabia with a clear worldview before coming to LUMS; more religion was the answer to any problem in society, or for that matter any personal problem. The campus was a strange place initially because for the first time in my life, I met people who disagreed with my point of view. This led to some funny conversations and observations.

For example, I was startled one day, when a political science instructor who was pro-secularism in his classes, stood next to me while praying at the mosque. When he first used the ‘S’ word in class, I felt sorry for him because I judged that he would end up in hell. In hindsight, this appears to be a childish or ignorant observation but for someone so well-indoctrinated in his worldview, imagining a secular man praying was a revealing moment. Exposure to different ideas was the first trigger for the evolution of my worldview. The second trigger was the surge of violence in the name of religion. How can Muslims kill Muslims is a question that I struggle with to this day.

When I asked religious folks for an answer to this question, they responded with denial (Muslims can’t kill Muslims), a conspiracy theory (it’s a Jewish/Indian conspiracy to divide us) or a lecture to focus on what’s really important in religion (praying, fasting) and not get engaged in politics of any sort. These answers made me restless. I started to consult academic sources and reading up on solutions from liberals.

This is when the pendulum of my worldview began to swing. From more religion being the answer to every problem, forcefully imposing your religious views on others became the source of all problems. This led to another conflict: I still believed religion was the answer to problems in my personal life. But I no longer believed that more religion was the only answer to the social or political problems facing the country. In fact, militants claiming to impose religion on the country at gun point were the problem. When I took this position publicly, I was told I was a hypocrite for changing my worldview. There was a phrase used to describe people with views like mine: liberal fascist. This made me angry. I began to drown out rational voices from the religious right; they’re all apologists, I argued. They aren’t part of the problem, they are the problem. My worldview hardened again. I stopped listening to conflicting voices.

Nearly a decade after I joined LUMS, I started a new experiment recently. I promised to start listening to people who had a worldview different than mine — starting with my parents who are still in Saudi Arabia. Instead of judging ideas and dismissing people on the basis of a pre-conceived label, I began to evaluate ideas on their own merit. I realised that the truth is far more nuanced than the frameworks we use to understand it. Our labels — liberal fascist, ‘Taliban Khan’ — don’t just help us frame problems. Over time, they become the invisible stumbling blocks to actually arriving at a solution. Not everyone has the opportunity to be exposed to different worldviews. We shouldn’t hold this against them. Besides, my liberal fascist worldview — whatever that means — is starting to pivot again too.

We’re all searching for that one overarching magic pill or solution out there that will solve all our problems. Society is so polarised these days — you are either with us or against us — that we feel the need to pick sides. Then we harden our positions and stop listening to conflicting points of view. What should one do in this situation? Don’t be afraid of having a worldview. Be afraid of believing that only your worldview has the solution to all our problems.

___________________-

Thought provoking article on contemporary Pakistani society.

From disco maulvi to liberal fascist – The Express Tribune

 

[Dubious]

An interesting article but like every human we wish to see everything black or white....Life is full of colours and not everything is black or white!

It isnt a problem with Pakistani society alone it is a problem with everyone. Just in different scenarios and associated with different aspects.

1) This section portrays the judgmental society. People are judgmental from the time they first see you to the time you talk and even after that, they are actively involved in judging.

“What’s the point of wearing a headscarf, if she’s going to roam around campus wearing tight jeans like that?” remarked a not-so-conservative friend, while referring to his former crush, after she turned him down. This was LUMS 10 years ago, a campus which shaped and transformed my worldview and those of countless others. I had grown up in Saudi Arabia with a clear worldview before coming to LUMS; more religion was the answer to any problem in society, or for that matter any personal problem. The campus was a strange place initially because for the first time in my life, I met people who disagreed with my point of view. This led to some funny conversations and observations.

For example, I was startled one day, when a political science instructor who was pro-secularism in his classes, stood next to me while praying at the mosque. When he first used the ‘S’ word in class, I felt sorry for him because I judged that he would end up in hell. In hindsight, this appears to be a childish or ignorant observation but for someone so well-indoctrinated in his worldview, imagining a secular man praying was a revealing moment. Exposure to different ideas was the first trigger for the evolution of my worldview. The second trigger was the surge of violence in the name of religion. How can Muslims kill Muslims is a question that I struggle with to this day.

2)Denial and inability to explain properly! Lack of proper patient experts who wont leash at you for asking something they cant explain coz they lack other forms of education except the madrasah form (education should be mixed from all fields to make a person a whole) This is also a problem world wide!

When I asked religious folks for an answer to this question, they responded with denial (Muslims can’t kill Muslims), a conspiracy theory (it’s a Jewish/Indian conspiracy to divide us) or a lecture to focus on what’s really important in religion (praying, fasting) and not get engaged in politics of any sort. These answers made me restless. I started to consult academic sources and reading up on solutions from liberals.

We have many "experts" but few wholerounded people!

When one denies it should not be calling another Jew or Indian....It should be more on denying the person doing wrong's understanding of the Quranic text or inability or unwillingness to accept the good part! There is nothing wrong with dissociating yourself with that which is wrong! Everyone does it!

Have a convict live in your area and you will see the whites themselves dont want to be friendly or him /her associated with them! It is a natural response! But god forbid a Muslim does that to a terrorist!

But blaming it on Jews and Indians is a little out of control sure the Jews and Indians may have done it ...But the guy must be bad or lacking knowledge to fall prey to them hence the blame goes on the individual not those who are luring him/ her! Like ALLAH will not blame satan alone but will hold you accountable for falling prey to satan!

3) Habit of classifying. We are not a category we are dynamic and always change and hence this habit of classifying people under some tag needs to really go! Today I may like 1 approach but why cant I like approach B tomorrow? Why should I be restricted based on today's choice?

This is when the pendulum of my worldview began to swing. From more religion being the answer to every problem, forcefully imposing your religious views on others became the source of all problems. This led to another conflict: I still believed religion was the answer to problems in my personal life. But I no longer believed that more religion was the only answer to the social or political problems facing the country. In fact, militants claiming to impose religion on the country at gun point were the problem. When I took this position publicly, I was told I was a hypocrite for changing my worldview. There was a phrase used to describe people with views like mine: liberal fascist. This made me angry. I began to drown out rational voices from the religious right; they’re all apologists, I argued. They aren’t part of the problem, they are the problem. My worldview hardened again. I stopped listening to conflicting voices.

My opinion is that One should swing their pendulum...otherwise they will not think ...If you dont look at different scenarios and dont check differences (God HIMSELF said he placed diverse people) If you dont look at diversity (be it attitude be it race be it colour be it anything) then you have limited your limits and cut off any progress!

Nearly a decade after I joined LUMS, I started a new experiment recently. I promised to start listening to people who had a worldview different than mine — starting with my parents who are still in Saudi Arabia. Instead of judging ideas and dismissing people on the basis of a pre-conceived label, I began to evaluate ideas on their own merit. I realised that the truth is far more nuanced than the frameworks we use to understand it. Our labels — liberal fascist, ‘Taliban Khan’ — don’t just help us frame problems. Over time, they become the invisible stumbling blocks to actually arriving at a solution. Not everyone has the opportunity to be exposed to different worldviews. We shouldn’t hold this against them. Besides, my liberal fascist worldview — whatever that means — is starting to pivot again too.

We’re all searching for that one overarching magic pill or solution out there that will solve all our problems. Society is so polarised these days — you are either with us or against us — that we feel the need to pick sides. Then we harden our positions and stop listening to conflicting points of view. What should one do in this situation? Don’t be afraid of having a worldview. Be afraid of believing that only your worldview has the solution to all our problems.

I agree with this! And I also say it is a world problem....not just Pakistan's problem!


1) Judgmental....The West can grill you with their judgement! Seriously, you being fresh off the boat, you will be labled with a certain set of criteria they call it stereotyping but it is in reality judgmental habit!

2) Denial.....the very fact that alot of people live in denial of one form or another is a worldwide phenomena! It sometimes gets irritating convincing the other! Denial that there are good and bad in every society, denial that the Western world has created hate and sat on it incubating it since colonial times! Denial that this is a leash back from Cold war and the list goes on!

3) Categorizing habits...Oh shes wearing a hijab she must be oppressed...He is black he must be itching to steal....He has a white cap he must be a fundamentalist!

 

[airmarshal]

“What’s the point of wearing a headscarf, if she’s going to roam around campus wearing tight jeans like that?” remarked a not-so-conservative friend, while referring to his former crush, after she turned him down.

Thought provoking article on contemporary Pakistani society.

From disco maulvi to liberal fascist – The Express Tribune

Two points I have separated from your article.

The first point is hypocrisy in our society or Muslim societies in general.

The second point also refers to our denial and habit making stereotypes.

If you read the two points together in the context of what I said, it reveals the general confusion we have about religion and our social behavior.

 

[Dubious]

The first point is hypocrisy in our society or Muslim societies in general.

Hypocrisy exists in every society! Show me one free of such a disease!

The second point also refers to our denial and habit making stereotypes.

Again ample examples can be found in other societies too! Blonde, bimbo stereotypes are creation of which society again?

If you read the two points together in the context of what I said, it reveals the general confusion we have about religion and our social behavior.

The only confusion we have is of intellectual acceptance of dean and duniyea as 2 separate entities yet a certain percentage of each is necessary to survive on earth! In short a balanced life!

 

[airmarshal]

Hypocrisy exists in every society! Show me one free of such a disease!


Again ample examples can be found in other societies too! Blonde, bimbo stereotypes are creation of which society again?


The only confusion we have is of intellectual acceptance of dean and duniyea as 2 separate entities yet a certain percentage of each is necessary to survive on earth! In short a balanced life!

My mention was of religious hypocrisy and it occurs in abundance in muslim societies. Here, people are who they are, what they are. But we want to be seen as pious Muslim but act no different from people whom we dont want to be.

 

[Dubious]

My mention was of religious hypocrisy and it occurs in abundance in muslim societies. Here, people are who they are, what they are. But we want to be seen as pious Muslim but act no different from people whom we dont want to be.

Not really in Pakistan I see people dying to showcase themselves as the naughty one...No idea why everyone seems to be showing off how many gf they have than dying to show off how often they visit the masjid...Maybe I am in a different part of Pakistan?

As for in West, it is tough to find a honest man in the west, everyone fears being labeled everything from sexist to racist I am not sure how many are sugar coating while talking "casually" ....the only time I have seen their tongue loosen is when they are drunk and mind you they arent in the best behaviours then! If you dont call this hypocrisy then you my dear have fallen into their hypocrisy behaviour circle!

 

[insight-out]

I wish we would be as appalled at "Muslims killing anyone" as we are at "Muslims killing Muslims".

 

[OTTOMAN]

Express Tribune .... BS.

 

[Hiptullha]

tl;dr for all those who don't want to read ET trash.

"I had spent most of my life indoctrinated (by myself, most likely) and foolishly thinking that if someone invoked the name of Allah 10 times a day, his problems would disappear. Now I realize my mistake, and understand that if some invokes the name of Jefferson or Rosseau 10 times a day, his problems will disappear.

 

[Kambojaric]

An interesting article but like every human we wish to see everything black or white....Life is full of colours and not everything is black or white!

It isnt a problem with Pakistani society alone it is a problem with everyone. Just in different scenarios and associated with different aspects.

To a certain extent I agree with this yes. Life becomes a lot easier for us humans if the world is divided into dichotomies. Having said that however this problem is compounded in Pakistani society by the fact that there is very little tolerance for the "other's" opinion. As such we remain convinced that only people who think like us are right and the rest are misguided idiots. This divide imo can only be bridged by exposure to people from all sections of society from a very early age. Direct personal exposure helps destroy any preconceived notions we have of people who hold opinions that are different than ours.

I can empathize with the author of this article to a great extent because I myself was raised up in surroundings where it was inconceivable that a secular person for example could actually be a person who genuinely cared about Pakistan, instead of being a foreign agent or a misguided westernzed burger bacha who had no loyalty to Pakistan. Surely the solution to all our problems was more religion. Yet as you grow up, as you read, as you meet different people, as you travel around the world, then slowly the wall of intolerance starts falling. As Sokrat said the wise man knows that he knows nothing.

 

[Dubious]

Having said that however this problem is compounded in Pakistani society by the fact that there is very little tolerance for the "other's" opinion. As such we remain convinced that only people who think like us are right and the rest are misguided idiots.

Have you been around Europe in general bro? Or even read European opinions in papers! Only the intellect can speak properly while a good potion dont really know much about other's opinions! A simple lack of tolerance is the daily joke about left hand and right hand driving....And this is 1 topic I have heard too many times in a university sitting!
In fact even in America and Australia where immigrants settled by destroying the locals think others are misguided....so brother in all honesty it is not a regional problem...IF it were due to lack of education, what is the West's problem of behaving in a similar manner!

I accept they tolerate a lot but mostly due to the strict laws but it is not naturally....They have good laws which are implemented and controlled! It kills room for intolerance....To say them as a race or being naturally tolerant is a flaw! Though I do believe alot of them are incredibly humble......Again I have almost always heard people end their sentences if I think that way then I would be racist.....or that is very narrow minded thinking.....its not like they dont think or behave that way...its just awareness that such things have labels associated with them and many wouldnt like to be labeled! It is indeed something you would be surprised to hear but have ignored but it is there!

This divide imo can only be bridged by exposure to people from all sections of society from a very early age. Direct personal exposure helps destroy any preconceived notions we have of people who hold opinions that are different than ours

Yes, this can be a solution! Or just avoid racial slurs, stereotyping and encourage intermingling!

I can empathize with the author of this article to a great extent because I myself was raised up in surroundings where it was inconceivable that a secular person for example could actually be a person who genuinely cared about Pakistan, instead of being a foreign agent or a misguided westernzed burger bacha who had no loyalty to Pakistan. Surely the solution to all our problems was more religion. Yet as you grow up, as you read, as you meet different people, as you travel around the world, then slowly the wall of intolerance starts falling. As Sokrat said the wise man knows that he knows nothing.

I on the other hand observed a bit of the opposite! I have met more professors and university workers from lab mates to lab technicians who are willing to talk about religion and exchange ideas.....They awe and accept at how we keep fasts for summer, they awe at how we pray on time, they awe at our discipline ....Religion may not be everything but it def is not worth dropping....I mean I am here all alone, no one knows me, I can remove my scarf and blend in...Apart from my nose and slight dark skin colour and diet, I can blend in without any care on the planet and then put the scarf back on again when I go back to Pakistan.....But I like being appreciated for what I am doing....When you do nothing wrong you shouldnt be afraid...Alhamdulillah I have never experienced any form of difference just coz I wear a scarf and dont eat meat....

Likewise in Pakistan if a gora comes in without headscarf, heck even if your cousin from abroad comes in without headscarf, there is more tolerance for women to be in jeans and without headscarf in Pakistan....Heck the fashion styles in Pakistan are far advanced than jeans! Half the stuff they wear, my Italian colleagues have had their mouths hanging with looking at stuff I showed em!

There are different levels of tolerance....The only prob I see with PAKISTANI societies is that they are too wayli! They need a job instead of sitting around and snooping around like a spy and taking notice of every fly on the planet!

 

[Zarvan]

“What’s the point of wearing a headscarf, if she’s going to roam around campus wearing tight jeans like that?” remarked a not-so-conservative friend, while referring to his former crush, after she turned him down. This was LUMS 10 years ago, a campus which shaped and transformed my worldview and those of countless others. I had grown up in Saudi Arabia with a clear worldview before coming to LUMS; more religion was the answer to any problem in society, or for that matter any personal problem. The campus was a strange place initially because for the first time in my life, I met people who disagreed with my point of view. This led to some funny conversations and observations.

For example, I was startled one day, when a political science instructor who was pro-secularism in his classes, stood next to me while praying at the mosque. When he first used the ‘S’ word in class, I felt sorry for him because I judged that he would end up in hell. In hindsight, this appears to be a childish or ignorant observation but for someone so well-indoctrinated in his worldview, imagining a secular man praying was a revealing moment. Exposure to different ideas was the first trigger for the evolution of my worldview. The second trigger was the surge of violence in the name of religion. How can Muslims kill Muslims is a question that I struggle with to this day.

When I asked religious folks for an answer to this question, they responded with denial (Muslims can’t kill Muslims), a conspiracy theory (it’s a Jewish/Indian conspiracy to divide us) or a lecture to focus on what’s really important in religion (praying, fasting) and not get engaged in politics of any sort. These answers made me restless. I started to consult academic sources and reading up on solutions from liberals.

This is when the pendulum of my worldview began to swing. From more religion being the answer to every problem, forcefully imposing your religious views on others became the source of all problems. This led to another conflict: I still believed religion was the answer to problems in my personal life. But I no longer believed that more religion was the only answer to the social or political problems facing the country. In fact, militants claiming to impose religion on the country at gun point were the problem. When I took this position publicly, I was told I was a hypocrite for changing my worldview. There was a phrase used to describe people with views like mine: liberal fascist. This made me angry. I began to drown out rational voices from the religious right; they’re all apologists, I argued. They aren’t part of the problem, they are the problem. My worldview hardened again. I stopped listening to conflicting voices.

Nearly a decade after I joined LUMS, I started a new experiment recently. I promised to start listening to people who had a worldview different than mine — starting with my parents who are still in Saudi Arabia. Instead of judging ideas and dismissing people on the basis of a pre-conceived label, I began to evaluate ideas on their own merit. I realised that the truth is far more nuanced than the frameworks we use to understand it. Our labels — liberal fascist, ‘Taliban Khan’ — don’t just help us frame problems. Over time, they become the invisible stumbling blocks to actually arriving at a solution. Not everyone has the opportunity to be exposed to different worldviews. We shouldn’t hold this against them. Besides, my liberal fascist worldview — whatever that means — is starting to pivot again too.

We’re all searching for that one overarching magic pill or solution out there that will solve all our problems. Society is so polarised these days — you are either with us or against us — that we feel the need to pick sides. Then we harden our positions and stop listening to conflicting points of view. What should one do in this situation? Don’t be afraid of having a worldview. Be afraid of believing that only your worldview has the solution to all our problems.

___________________-

Thought provoking article on contemporary Pakistani society.

From disco maulvi to liberal fascist – The Express Tribune

An article from a totally confused guy whose liberalism is limited to wearing vulgar clothes and dancing and getting drunk.

 

[airmarshal]

Not really in Pakistan I see people dying to showcase themselves as the naughty one...No idea why everyone seems to be showing off how many gf they have than dying to show off how often they visit the masjid...Maybe I am in a different part of Pakistan?

As for in West, it is tough to find a honest man in the west, everyone fears being labeled everything from sexist to racist I am not sure how many are sugar coating while talking "casually" ....the only time I have seen their tongue loosen is when they are drunk and mind you they arent in the best behaviours then! If you dont call this hypocrisy then you my dear have fallen into their hypocrisy behaviour circle!

Living in west, I m in no way saying i m in thrall with their society. That was never my point.

What I meant was little things. If someone drinks, he or she drinks. That person will not hide or give you reasons or refute your logic. That person wont force you into doing things he does.

Actually, in many ways and you have right to disagree, I have seen Islam in practice, the one that I only saw in preaching in Pakistan. This country has made me a better Muslim. IT has forced me revisit my identity. People here ask questions about Islam. I have taken it positively and learnt about Islam more than I could living and being brought up in Islamic country!

My biggest grudge with Pakistani society and thats where my argument about hypocrisy came, is that we want to show off what we are not! This is an inferiority complex. As you said people dying there to show off they have a girl friend. When I sit with my Pakistani friends, I feel pressure into admitting something. I dont admit anything being forced into that I m not or dont have, but there is a peer pressure in Pakistani society. On the contrary, when I m with my Canadian friends, I m who I m.

I hope you get my point

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

An article from a totally confused guy who is liberalism is limited to wear vulgar clothes and dancing and getting drunk.

90% of ppl here think "secular" : athiest ... So tell me about it.

 

[SQ8]

Sounds similar to my gripe with most Pakistanis. Thankfully, dont have to bear that anymore.