Freedom of Speech in Pakistan

[Chak Bamu]

Enduring foolishness is not a attribute but a bloody curse.

Yes, it has since 1947. So has China. So has Somalia. So has Turkey. So has Niger. Look at them today.

Why are you and me sat in USA and UK respectively, including a large chunk of PDF. That is what "chart it's own course" got us.

Japan - a resourceless backwater until 19th century became an efficient producer of myriad products in 20th. The mind-set bred of resourcelessness became a strength.

Blind emulation of Western ideals would increase internal dichotomy (polychotomy?) and exact a price in a short span of time. The solution is to espouse rule of law in reference to Constitutionalism. It is not difficult to understand or teach. Desi mind is capable of evolving and has actually seen a lot: Indus Valley Civilization, Aryan Colonization, Laws of Manu, Porus, Taxila, countless invasions, modernity, 1947, present. A generation passes in a blink of an eye. Pakistan could begin to have much better prospects if only constitution is followed & military takes a backseat.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Japan - a resourceless backwater until 19th century became an efficient producer of myriad products in 20th. The mind-set bred of resourcelessness became a strength.

I would present Japan as proof of my case. Indeed the history of Japan post Commodore Perry's forced opening is a lesson in how to "blindly emulate", improve and better your adversery. If you have studied Japanese history you will know that. The old order was purged. And copy of west was transpanted in the Japanese flora.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I would present Japan as proof of my case. Indeed the history of Japan post Commodore Perry's forced opening is a lesson in how to "blindly emulate", improve and better your adversery. If you have studied Japanese history you will know that. The old order was purged. And copy of west was transpanted in the Japanese flora.

And yet Japanese did not forget who they were. They remain who they are, but are very much a part of the modern world. Pakistanis could do the same while enjoying diversity.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Yu do know that from 1868 Japan went on a forced emulation of the west where old was replaced with ideas and fashion from London/Paris. The Meiji modernization [read wsternization] made modern Japan in less then 44 years. And this feat was capped when Japan became the first Asiatic country to defeat a European power - Russia.

For the next twenty years, in the 1870s and 1880s, the top priority remained domestic reform aimed at changing Japan's social and economic institutions along the lines of the model provided by the powerful Western nations. The final blow to conservative samurai came in the 1877 Satsuma rebellion, when the government's newly drafted army, trained in European infantry techniques and armed with modern Western guns, defeated the last resistance of the traditional samurai warriors. With the exception of these few samurai outbreaks, Japan's domestic transformation proceeded with remarkable speed, energy, and the cooperation of the people. This phenomenon is one of the major characteristics of Japan's modern history.

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/japan_1750_meiji.htm

Japanese went from being dressed 'desi' style like this

to

The Meiji oligarchy was aware of Western progress, and "learning missions" were sent abroad to absorb as much of it as possible

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/japan_1750_meiji.htm

 

[VCheng]

And yet Japanese did not forget who they were. They remain who they are, but are very much a part of the modern world. Pakistanis could do the same while enjoying diversity.

Yes, Pakistan can do the same - but it consistently chooses not to do so. The reasons are quite easy to understand, but a discussion on them would be off topic in this thread.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And yet Japanese did not forget who they were

You can copy the west 100% like Japanese but still be your 'own' iteration. Like the west has it's own iterations. Germans, French, Russians, Americans, Canadians and you can include Chinese, Japanese, South Koreans, Singaporens. Indeed they tend to have stronger identities and patriotism then we do.

And I never said we should forget who we are. Indeed I have lot of interest in the history of coterminous Pakistan.

Why Japan succeeded. It killed the "desi" thought in Japanese society. Although this is a dramatization but Last Samurai represents the defeat and purging of the old order [Japanese desi's] and replaced with a westoxified order in what was known as Satsuma Rebellion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsuma_Rebellion

@VCheng

 

[VCheng]

You can copy the west 100% like Japanese but still be your 'own' iteration. Like the west has it's own iterations. Germans, French, Russians, Americans, Canadians and you can include Chinese, Japanese, South Koreans, Singaporens. Indeed they tend to have stronger identities and patriotism then we do.

And I never said we should forget who we are. Indeed I have lot of interest in the history of coterminous Pakistan.

Why Japan succeeded. It killed the "desi" thought in Japanese society. Although this is a dramatization but Last Samurai represents the defeat and purging of the old order [Japanese desi's] and replaced with a westoxified order in what was known as Satsuma Rebellion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsuma_Rebellion

@VCheng

Let us not forget the role played by Gen MacArthur in the aftermath of WW2.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Let us not forget the role played by Gen MacArthur in the aftermath of WW2.

Yes. But it's important to note here -

• the Meiji reformation was wholesale copy of the west including dress, mores, laws, economy, institutions but with a Prussian twist. This created a militaristic country something similiar to Prussia/Germany.
• 
  
• Gen MacArthur post WW2 reforms were more about transforming a westernized militaristic society to a western liberal democracy. MacArthur can be credited for turning Japan into a liberal democracy. However it already was westernized.

 

[VCheng]

Yes. But it's important to note here -

• the Meiji reformation was wholesale copy of the west including dress, mores, laws, economy, institutions but with a Prussian twist. This created a militaristic country something similiar to Prussia/Germany.
• 
  
• Gen MacArthur post WW2 reforms were more about transforming a westernized militaristic society to a western liberal democracy. MacArthur can be credited for turning Japan into a liberal democracy. However it already was westernized.

To stay on topic in this thread, how did Japan fair with freedom of speech in this saga?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

To stay on topic in this thread, how did Japan fair with freedom of speech in this saga?

Minus zero.

*There is little correlation with freedom of speach and development. Indeed it apears to hinder it and seems to come about when countries reach maturity and post development. You can see Japan, China, South Korea, Singapore, Germany, Russia as examples.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Yes, Pakistan can do the same - but it consistently chooses not to do so. The reasons are quite easy to understand, but a discussion on them would be off topic in this thread.

In my view the discussion would be very much on topic. The selective nature of 'freedom' would very much be a part of it. Of course the vested interests ensure that the freedom of expression is circumscribed within the bounds of 'national interest'. Who determines national interest are the same forces which enjoy impunity in flouting our freedoms at will. Parliament has been relegated to a second class status and stuffed with lackeys who do not possess the acumen or courage to question established interests.

Do note that the limited freedom of expression is basically a symptom, not the disease. The root of the disease lies in military elitism that forces a security-centered narrative everywhere and at all costs. Why so? Because it perpetuates the resource grab enjoyed by the Khakis. Do they understand what this resource grab in name of security costs the nation? May be they do and may be they are genuinely convinced that security is in perpetual danger and that it must be protected at all costs.

The only anti-dote to this disease is an assertive parliament that keeps army and the judiciary in its constitutionally allotted space & function within constitutional limits. They call parliament as the first among equals for a reason.

If one reads @Brass Knuckles posts on this thread, one can readily understand why Pakistan would find it very difficult to adopt a proper constitutional scheme of things. We have a vocal section of educated class who do not have the vision or the intellect to understand the benefits of constitutionalism. They have been fed a consistent diet of selective information to form a mind-set. The key has been amplification of security-centered narrative in media. Should someone question this narrative, all the pygmies swarm like angry seagulls and pile up on the questioner.

@Indus Pakistan view of adopting Westernization is not really necessary. The enduring legacy of the Western democracy is Constitutionalism. This is not difficult to see and understand as the key to evolution. When it happens via parliament, it would carry a flavor & hue that would make it distinctly Pakistani with very much Desi features. But who would allow it to happen? Certainly not a benevolent COAS or a democracy loving ISPR.

Minus zero.

*There is little correlation with freedom of speach and development. Indeed it apears to hinder it and seems to come about when countries reach maturity and post development. You can see Japan, China, South Korea, Singapore, Germany, Russia as examples.

How are China & Russia examples?

 

[VCheng]

In my view the discussion would be very much on topic. The selective nature of 'freedom' would very much be a part of it. Of course the vested interests ensure that the freedom of expression is circumscribed within the bounds of 'national interest'. Who determines national interest are the same forces which enjoy impunity in flouting our freedoms at will. Parliament has been relegated to a second class status and stuffed with lackeys who do not possess the acumen or courage to question established interests.

Ironically, the same selectivity of freedom applies here too, and specially to me, it seems. As much as I would have liked to discuss this further, I must defer to the environment in force on PDF.

I do agree with your post above, suffice to say.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Ironically, the same selectivity of freedom applies here too, and specially to me, it seems. As much as I would have liked to discuss this further, I must defer to the environment in force on PDF.

I do agree with your post above, suffice to say.

The environment is changing. As more & more people question the mind-set that got Pakistan where it is today, it would not be possible to keep such discussions off PDF.

Ignoring realities would make PDF redundant. I do not think circumscribing discussion is in PDF's best interest, quite like the atmosphere of censorship is not in Pakistan's interest.

 

[VCheng]

The environment is changing. As more & more people question the mind-set that got Pakistan where it is today, it would not be possible to keep such discussions off PDF.

Ignoring realities would make PDF redundant. I do not think circumscribing discussion is in PDF's best interest, quite like the atmosphere of censorship is not in Pakistan's interest.

True as that may be, I am forbidden to make any comments about how management want to run their forum as they see fit. All I can do is modulate my participation as a member, secure in the knowledge that reality makes itself felt no matter what.

To carry the thread further, I wonder how @Indus Pakistan will respond to your question above abut how China & Russia are examples to be emulated for freedom of expression including in the media.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

China & Russia are examples to be emulated for freedom of expression including in the media.

I will scroll back later and find exactly what he said but I will say that my thinking over the last few years has arrived firmly to the simple recipe. Copy the west and be rapacious about it. No apologies. Do what every non European peoples have done who succeeded. Japan, Turkey, South Korea, Singapore, China, Taiwan, Malaysia etc

The wheel can';t be reinvented,. So what if you hate those who invented the wheel. You copy the wheel. Ypu don't have to like the doctor who cures you. Just fcukin take his medicine and advice.