France to offer bigger Scorpenes for $5 billion Indian submarine order

[Veeru]

France to offer bigger Scorpenes for $5 billion Indian submarine order

France will offer India a bigger version of its Scorpene conventional diesel-electric (SSK) submarine for a $5 billion (Rs 30,000 crore) contract for six submarines. This is the world's largest order for conventional submarines.

Stating this, Patrick Boissier, Chairman and CEO of French shipbuilder DCNS, confirmed that the design of the existing Scorpene submarine could be lengthened with the addition of more sections including Air Independent Propulsion (AIP).

Boissier was part of the trade delegation visiting New Delhi with French President Nicolas Sarkozy. India is already building six Scorpene submarines at the state-owned Mazagon Docks Ltd under a Rs 18,000-crore contract signed with France in 2005.

Last year, the Indian Navy sought global Requests for Information (RFIs) from global vendors for six Project 75I class submarines independent of the 2005 contract.

DCNS responded to the Navy RFI last September. Next year, the Navy is to issue its Request for Proposals (RFPs), which will define the size of the submarine and other critical parameters. Naval officials say a contract for the first P75I could be signed around 2012-13.

The Project 75I submarines are expected to be bigger than the 1800-ton Scorpene class and call for the fitment of AIP systems allowing greater underwater endurance and land-attack missiles.

Indian Navy officials say a commonality of components will mean the second line of six Scorpenes will be cheaper than any competitor, though it is unclear what the quantum of these savings will be. The first two submarines are to be built in the foreign shipyard that wins the contract, the next three at MDL and the last one at the Hindustan Shipyard Limited, recently acquired by the defence ministry.

The submarines are to be built simultaneously in India and abroad to ensure speedy induction into the fleet. This is because the Navy is faced with a fast shrinking submarine arm. It has not added a new submarine in a decade. From 18 submarines in 2000, the Navy is down to 14 and will start retiring the first of its 10 Russian-built Kilo class vessels from 2015 onwards. The Scorpene submarine programme has been delayed by four years. The first submarine is now expected to join the Navy only by 2015.

India's long-term submarine building programme, conceived in the mid-1990s, envisaged the building of 24 submarines over the next two decades.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/122310/World/france-to-offer-bigger-scorpenes-for-$5-billion-indian-submarine-order.html

No thanks, we want German HDWs.

 

[dawny]

I think HDW was blacklisted by MOD,correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[sathya]

i will vote for spanish new sub design

 

[Kinetic]

No to big Scorpene. We need something futuristic. Indian navy is ready to spend huge amount so we should get something new.

 

[Archie]

Guys, wasnt Marlin SSK the bigger version of scorpene

Now considering the fact that Navy wants both AIP and land attack capability
they require a bigger sub , something in the range of 2500-3000 Tons
considering the fact that in case of 1800 Ton scorpene under construction , 3 will be equipped with AIP , WHILE 3 WILL CARRY LAND ATTACK CRUISE MISSILES , like Nirbhay or Brammos/Dhanush . All subs though will carry Exocet Anti ship missiles with indian navy having already ordered 36 of these

While if the navy selects bigger scorpene , it will ensure commonality within fleet , cheaper over all cost of operation and mentainence , Lower per unit price becoz of lower cost of TOT

 

[Dr sim]

scorpene is probably the best submarine in its class. It has been experiencing delays bcoz Indian engineers and ship building docks are having a hard time taking such a huge leap in technology ( like the LCA project) and ofcourse our BABUS

AIP addition is a good step but my only concern is the already dwindling state of Indian submarines . Maybe they should be upgraded in the second phase or something like that. India has to tread very carefully here

 

[IND151]

scorpion subs should be inducted in IN as fast as possible.

 

[IND151]

Air-independent propulsion

The French MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) system is being offered by the French shipyard DCN for the Scorpène class submarines. It is essentially a modified version of their nuclear propulsion system with heat being generated by ethanol and oxygen. A conventional steam turbine power plant powered by steam generated from the combustion of ethanol (grain alcohol) and stored oxygen at a pressure of 60 atmospheres. This pressure-firing allows exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled overboard at any depth without an exhaust compressor.

Each MESMA system costs around $50–60 million. As installed on the Scorpène, it requires adding a new 8.3 meter (27 foot), 305 tonne hull section to the submarine, and results in a submarine able to operate for greater than 21 days underwater, depending on variables like speed.[citation needed]

 

[GORKHALI]

Actualy its the best choice for indian navy because of commonility and transfer of tech!! 5billion for 6 Extended Scorpene subs and rest 5billion for AMUR CLASS TO REPLACE KILO CLASSES STEP BY STEP BY STEP . Rest 2 to 3billion can be used To procure HDW U214 TO REPLACE U209 .. Actully we can procure 6scorpenes 10amur and 3 HDW U214 =19 SUBS WORTH 13BILLION DOLLAR STATED BY MOD.. They not only replace kilo class and U209 Subs but also fit into their shoes to give a huge boost to indian navy non nuclear subs fleet .

 

[jha]

Navy moots to make Scorpene subs more lethal

The navy is weighing a proposal to modify the under-construction Scorpene submarines to enable the boats to stay underwater for longer periods and enhance their combat capabilities. It is considering to equip the submarines, being built at Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), with an air independent
propulsion (AIP) system that can recharge their batteries without having to surface for more than three weeks. Conventional submarines have to surface almost every second day to run their air-breathing diesel engines, running the risk of detection.

Six Scorpene submarines are being built with transfer of technology from French firm DCNS, under a Rs 18,798-crore programme called Project 75. DCNS CEO Patrick Boissier, who is accompanying visiting French President Nicolas Sarkozy, said his company was in talks with the navy to equip the submarines with AIP systems.

Boissier said if a contract were to be placed by next year, AIP systems could be integrated into the fifth and the sixth submarines rolling out of MDL in 2018. The systems can be retrofitted on the first four submarines later under an upgrade programme. The navy is also looking at an indigenous AIP system being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said the first Scorpene submarine would enter service in 2015 and the remaining six within a span of three years. The navy was supposed to induct its first Scorpene in 2012, but the project has been delayed due to issues over transfer of technology. The navy is set to collaborate with a foreign manufacturer for six more next-generation submarines under Project 75-India, pegged to be worth Rs 40,000 crore.

Navy moots to make Scorpene subs more lethal - Hindustan Times

 

[saurav]

Bigger Scorpene as P-75I makes every sense...We will already have Hands on Scorpene..
The best news in article is about our own AIP system being built.As much as i remember we will be designing 12 SSKs in house with AIP.I am just waiting for our AIP system to be operational. Even if it doesn't we can start the project by using MESMA AIPs in the first few..

 

[Yeti]

Think Brazil is also getting these larger versions modified for its nuclear sub project with France.

 

[jha]

^^ Yes..They are buying bigger scorpenes..

 

[New Vision]

So are we gonna keep on buying, we are building Scorpenes and Amurs and our own nuclear powered submarine. Is there a point of convergence for all these technologies. WE have the transfer of technology , how good is that, to what extenet will that help us to indegenize. Do we have our own plans to build conventional submarines or we will just stick to nuclear powered ones. A host of questions there. I certainly believe we have to garner all the knowledge that we are gaining now and launch our own programme to develope our own conventional and nuclear submarines. I was from Mazagon where the mazagon docks are. So many of my friends (young at that time) were involved with the HDW construction, and I still remember their comment , that "One German did the work equal to 10 of our men" It is their work culture as I understand. And also the govt. should ensure continuity of work on submarines so valuable knowledge and skills are not lost.

 

[sancho]

So are we gonna keep on buying, we are building Scorpenes and Amurs and our own nuclear powered submarine. Is there a point of convergence for all these technologies. WE have the transfer of technology , how good is that, to what extenet will that help us to indegenize. Do we have our own plans to build conventional submarines or we will just stick to nuclear powered ones. A host of questions there. I certainly believe we have to garner all the knowledge that we are gaining now and launch our own programme to develope our own conventional and nuclear submarines. I was from Mazagon where the mazagon docks are. So many of my friends (young at that time) were involved with the HDW construction, and I still remember their comment , that "One German did the work equal to 10 of our men" It is their work culture as I understand. And also the govt. should ensure continuity of work on submarines so valuable knowledge and skills are not lost.

Actually that is the problem that we might face today! We gained knowledge and experience with U 209 licence production, but instead of using it and build more of them, or the later offered U 214, which is based on U 209, we chose to add the new Scorpene. That means the know how we got on German subs was pretty much a waste and imo the only reason to go with French subs was, ToT that helps in development of Arihant.
The Scorpenes are based on French nuclear subs and share even some systems, but France itself don't use diesel - electric subs. Germany instead is the number 1 when it comes to diesel - electric subs and even at AIP propulsions, while they have no know how on nuclear subs, because they are restricted in developing such techs.

The question now is, do we still need ToT from the French and use the advantage of finally working licence production of Scorpense for fast induction of more, or do we need the best diesel electric sub on offer?
An interesting point imo could be Brahmos carrying capability, which the French subs don't have according to several news reports. It can add only a limited number of modules and with AIP will reach it's limit.
The Russians offer Amur with Brahmos and even the smaller S1000 as a co-development with Italy and AIP, but it seems they have the same problem. Either Brahmos, or AIP!

Amur 1650 with AIP:

Amur 950 with Brahmos:

-= R U B I N =-


It was reported that IN asked the Germans about integration of Brahmos too, but nothing new about their answer.
At the end, there are several important points to consider for IN, ToT, fast induction of more subs, Brahmos, AIP.
Btw, there are these reports about a $12 billion sub competition which is hard to believe, because the subs are way cheaper. However we have to keep in mind that the second order is for a Kilo class replacement, so possibly for way more than just 6 subs.