France sees first Rafale jet deliveries to India by 2016

[Dash]

What are the chances France finally cowtowing to MOD in fear of cancellation and agreeing too HAL as the lead supplier. Is the govt ready to play another DCNS-MAzagaon type deal?

 

[sancho]

What are the chances France finally cowtowing to MOD in fear of cancellation and agreeing too HAL as the lead supplier. Is the govt ready to play another DCNS-MAzagaon type deal?

It's not France nor India that are troubling here, but Dassault and most likely Reliance. Dassault wants to divert part of the production to another private partner and the way they act now, it's clear to me that Realiance is pushing them from behind. So it's private industry interests vs government / national interests.

TIME TO WALK A THIN LINE

...As is known, the IAF’s medium multi-role aircraft requirement was finally decided in favour of the French Rafale. One of the points of contention during negotiations is reported to be the supplier’s desire to execute the Indian part of the contract through an Indian private company of its choice against the tender requirements of using Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Had the tender been floated today, this would have been perfectly in order. Understandably, there is reluctance on the part of the MoD because allowing such a deviation could well draw protests from the competitors who had lost...

Time to walk a thin line

 

[Dash]

It's not France nor India that are troubling here, but Dassault and most likely Reliance. Dassault wants to divert part of the production to another private partner and the way they act now, it's clear to me that Realiance is pushing them from behind. So it's private industry interests vs government / national interests.




Time to walk a thin line

France can intervene!, but thats not the point here. Dont you agree that Dassult has a point here. Its a very valid point!!!..I for sure wont want to entrust HAL with the execution of Rafale work. Further can be said that HAL has undertaken delivery of Su 30s which makes a case but Rafale is a different fighter altogather.

I personally think sourcing a part of job to Reliance would be a great idea and makes HAL and first and foremost Dassult accountable in many ways, which is the best part. I am sure this is a good time in MRCA. Because if Reliance gets a peice, everybody is happy+quick Rafales!!

 

[sancho]

France can intervene!, but thats not the point here. Dont you agree that Dassult has a point here. Its a very valid point!!!..I for sure wont want to entrust HAL with the execution of Rafale work. Further can be said that HAL has undertaken delivery of Su 30s which makes a case but Rafale is a different fighter altogather.

I personally think sourcing a part of job to Reliance would be a great idea and makes HAL and first and foremost Dassult accountable in many ways, which is the best part. I am sure this is a good time in MRCA. Because if Reliance gets a peice, everybody is happy+quick Rafales!!

No I don't think they have a point, because their argument that HAL is not capable of doing it doesn't hold it's own when they want to provide the work to e completely new player in the aero field, besides that it would be against the RFP requirements and opens ways for other competitiors to issue a complaint and delay the induction even further!
Dassault is playing a game for their and Reliances interests, not because they fear delays (something that they don't about HAL doing M2K upgrades btw), because if delayes were their problem, they would want to divert the production to Tata, which have way more experience and capability in this field today.

 

[Dash]

No I don't think they have a point, because their argument that HAL is not capable of doing it doesn't hold it's own when they want to provide the work to e completely new player in the aero field, besides that it would be against the RFP requirements and opens ways for other competitiors to issue a complaint and delay the induction even further!
Dassault is playing a game for their and Reliances interests, not because they fear delays (something that they don't about HAL doing M2K upgrades btw), because if delayes were their problem, they would want to divert the production to Tata, which have way more experience and capability in this field today.

Agreed, but I am talking from a beurocratic point of view..
I am not in favor of total outsourcing of Rafale work to Reliance, but a part of it to satisfy the crying kid. Put the onus on Dassult again for HAL to deliver the majority of it.

Game they are playing its a game we should play.

 

[sancho]

Agreed, but I am talking from a beurocratic point of view..
I am not in favor of total outsourcing of Rafale work to Reliance, but a part of it to satisfy the crying kid. Put the onus on Dassult again for HAL to deliver the majority of it.

Game they are playing its a game we should play.

Also not from a beurocratic point of view, because Dassault has all freedom to choose Indian privat partners for the offset requirements anyway, but HAL must remain to be the contractor for the final assembly of the parts. And we don't have to satisfy them, the RFP regulations were clear from the start and we have to stick with it to avoid further problems and since we are on the better side of the negotiations, we have to keep it strict according to the rules, like the MMRCA was done before.

 

[indiatester]

Also not from a beurocratic point of view, because Dassault has all freedom to choose Indian privat partners for the offset requirements anyway, but HAL must remain to be the contractor for the final assembly of the parts. And we don't have to satisfy them, the RFP regulations were clear from the start and we have to stick with it to avoid further problems and since we are on the better side of the negotiations, we have to keep it strict according to the rules, like the MMRCA was done before.

But what about the penalty Dassault has to face even if the delay was because of HAL?

 

[sancho]

But what about the penalty Dassault has to face even if the delay was because of HAL?

Which is a good point to put pressure on Dassault to do anything that the production will be as fast as possible. We have seen foreign manufacturers diverting techs, tools, or needed plans only very slowly in earlier licence production deals, which caused delays as well. MoD will not punish Dassault if the fault is clearly on HALs side, but this way it makes sure that the foreign manufacturers will remain commited to the deal until the last fighter will be delivered.

 

[Dash]

Also not from a beurocratic point of view, because Dassault has all freedom to choose Indian privat partners for the offset requirements anyway, but HAL must remain to be the contractor for the final assembly of the parts. And we don't have to satisfy them, the RFP regulations were clear from the start and we have to stick with it to avoid further problems and since we are on the better side of the negotiations, we have to keep it strict according to the rules, like the MMRCA was done before.

Do you see another Scorpene deal kinda game in MRCA?

 

[sancho]

Do you see another Scorpene deal kinda game in MRCA?

Possible, but I thought about BAE and the Hawk too, where we have to punish them with penalities too, till we got the right toolings to run the licence production propperly and similar things happend with Russians as well. So having the manufacturers accountable for the full production timeframe is a good point for India, no matter if they complain about it.

 

[Abhishek Das]

This year the deal will be completed & the first batch of 18 Rafael jets from direct France will come to India by 2016, rest of 108 jets will be developed under license production in HAL, after the completion of the developments 50 jets in HAL India will go for another 74 Rafael jets by 2021 & the total remaining 132 jets will be developed between 2021-34.....at the same time frame India will get around 100 AMCA fighters besides all 144 Sukhoi-FGFA, 272 Sukhoi-Super-30 & another order of 90 more Super-Sukhoi of which all may be in service total 362 Super-Sukhoi-30, 200 HAL LCA Tejas, a total of 1,006 combat aircrafts fleet in IAF that will grow upto 1,300-1,500 by 2040.....!!!

 

[he-man]

Bhai,,jaldi karo ab

 

[Abhishek Das]

IAF 2020
54 Sukhoi-FGFA, 272 Super-Sukhoi-30, 40 Dassault Rafael, 40 HAL LCA Tejas, 51 Mirage-2000H Mk-2, 69 Mig-29UPG, 90 Mig-27, 150 Jaguar-SL-UPG, 121 Mig-21Bison, a total of 887 combat aircrafts.
IAF 2030
144 Sukhoi-FGFA, 100 HAL AMCA, 362 Super-Sukhoi-30, 160 Dassault Rafael, 200 HAL LCA Tejas, a total of 966 combat aircrafts.....!!!

 

[danger007]

This year the deal will be completed & the first batch of 18 Rafael jets from direct France will come to India by 2016, rest of 108 jets will be developed under license production in HAL, after the completion of the developments 50 jets in HAL India will go for another 74 Rafael jets by 2021 & the total remaining 132 jets will be developed between 2021-34.....at the same time frame India will get around 100 AMCA fighters besides all 144 Sukhoi-FGFA, 272 Sukhoi-Super-30 & another order of 90 more Super-Sukhoi of which all may be in service total 362 Super-Sukhoi-30, 200 HAL LCA Tejas, a total of 1,006 combat aircrafts fleet in IAF that will grow upto 1,300-1,500 by 2040.....!!!

by 2040 MKI Tejas will become old platforms. .

 

[Abhishek Das]

This year the deal will be
completed & the first batch of
18 Rafael jets from direct
France will come to India by
2016, rest of 108 jets will be
developed under license
production in HAL, after the
completion of the
developments 50 jets in HAL
India will go for another 74
Rafael jets by 2021 & the
total remaining 132 jets will
be developed between
2021-34.....at the same time
frame India will get around
150 AMCA fighters besides all
144 Sukhoi-FGFA, 272 Sukhoi-
Super-30 & another order of
90 more Super-Sukhoi of
which all may be in service
total 362 Super-Sukhoi-30,
250 HAL LCA Tejas, a total of
1,106 combat aircrafts fleet in
IAF that will grow upto
1,300-1,500 by 2040.....!!!