France - Pakistan , Avionics & possibly Plane deal revival, Post cancellation of MRCA

[MastanKhan]

Wow, can you please mention the name and modals of those 'smart' missiles which are fire and forget from start. Please

About your remaining, AHEM, 'arguments' there is no use of farther arguing it with you. I have made my arguments I think quite clear. You can keep on to fantasise about grand BVR trucks and massive salvos of BVR homing on to tiny puny Pakistani jet fighters.

Hi,

It is called the AIM 54----AIM 120----R77----SD10---the coming meteor----the PL15---what else.

Sir---I did not invite you to argue with me---I don't argue with people---you being a full fledged pakistani---you do it out of habbit---being a half pakistani now---I just share the information.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Sir,

Those days of pointing the aircraft in the direction of missile launch are over---modern missiles are smart fire and forget missiles---. Some old stocks might be there.

As for the missile travelling at 3000 miles per hoiur---it will have to take around 250 to 300 G's to match the 9 G of the aircraft flying at mach .7.

First thing---this breakoff has a miniscule window of opportunity---secondly---there is a second missile coming behind it----

AND THIRDLY---the russians aircraft launch 4 BVR's in a salvo at one target---so even if it has 25% kill ratio---there is still 1 in 4 chances of hitting---.

And the missile don't need to hit direct---a proximity fuse can blow up the missile as well---which can do serious damage to the aircraft.

Stop this bullsh-it about " non argument "---.

Sir,
With due respect what you are saying is not workable till Pakistan is able to have local made Satellites covering the entire spectrum of the war and relaying real time tracking. This is not possible with the US or Western Satellites data link we have because not all the technology is available.

 

[ghazi768]

Hi,

It is called the AIM 120----.

Sir---I did not invite you to argue with me---I don't argue with people---you being a full fledged pakistani---you do it out of habbit---being a half pakistani now---I just share the information.

Wrong again, AIM-120 is not fire and forget. Even its latest incarnation version D has not achieved this status. I think you are basically mentioning the event when AIM-120 is fired and it is close enough to bogey to immediately turn on its seeker. But this only occurs when you fire it in WVR, the trouble with this tactic is that missile requires full engine burn out to achieve its maximum energy and turn rates which unfortunately occurs in about XX (many, look at public sources to get an idea of duration of burn out) seconds and in beyond WVR range. It is basically a desperate shot.

Also I am proud to be a FULL Pakistani, thanks for your remark I am very grateful.

 

[MastanKhan]

Wrong again, AIM-120 is not fire and forget. Even its latest incarnation version D has not achieved this status. I think you are basically mentioning the event when AIM-120 is fired and it is close enough to bogey to immediately turn on its seeker. But this only occurs when you fire it in WVR, the trouble with this tactic is that missile requires full engine burn out to achieve its maximum energy and turn rates which unfortunately occurs in about XX (many, look at public sources to get an idea of duration of burn out) seconds and in beyond WVR range. It is basically a desperate shot.

Also I am proud to be a FULL Pakistani, thanks for your remark I am very grateful.

Hi,

Then does that not defeat the purpose the the F22's and F35----.

Pride is a killer-----. You can be proud of your achievements---not of your state of origin----that is arrogance---.

A good muslim is never a proud muslim----it is un-islamic to be proud of anything.

Sir,
With due respect what you are saying is not workable till Pakistan is able to have local made Satellites covering the entire spectrum of the war and relaying real time tracking. This is not possible with the US or Western Satellites data link we have because not all the technology is available.

Hi,

Please explain----in what context----. Where does the satellite coverage come nto force.

 

[ghazi768]

Hi,

Then does that not defeat the purpose the the F22's and F35----.

Pride is a killer-----. You can be proud of your achievements---not of your state of origin----that is arrogance---.

A good muslim is never a proud muslim----it is un-islamic to be proud of anything.



Hi,

Please explain----in what context----. Where does the satellite coverage come nto force.

How does you think it defeats the purpose of F22 or F 35, I did not understand it well.

I am not a molvi or mufti but I think that arrogant pride (takabur) is bad, just taking pride in your country/religion is not bad.

 

[araz]

Hi,

Then does that not defeat the purpose the the F22's and F35----.

Pride is a killer-----. You can be proud of your achievements---not of your state of origin----that is arrogance---.

A good muslim is never a proud muslim----it is un-islamic to be proud of anything.



Hi,

Please explain----in what context----. Where does the satellite coverage come nto force.

A small correction if I may. To be a proud muslim ie proud that he has been chosen by Allah Subhanahu WaTa alaah to follow the deen of Allah is a feature of a momin. Personal pride on the other hand is scorned upon. You need to qualify a statement fully. I hope you dont mind.
A

 

[thrilainmanila]

I've given up on this issue now there's ppl who are not worth quoting suggesting PAFs well trained pilots will be the deciding factor and will somehow overcome the technological gap, it's a myth that PAF pilots today are more trained then IAF pilots in the 60s/70s/80s the PAF had a huge edge since the technological disparity wasn't huge but the PAF have been asleep for 2 decades within this timeframe the IAf has adapted itself to BVR combat, PAf only became BVR capable in 2005/2006, PAF don't even have advanced SEAD munitions, through a advancements in technology does training develop, do you honestly believe a highly trained pilot in a F16 will survive a barrage of 8 R77 fired at it by a SU30, even an Israeli pilot will ultimate meet his maker in such a scenario, the best analogy is PAF going into a gun fight with a blade with there opponents armed with AKs there's only 1 outcome in the fight

 

[Dalit]

French avionics is a waste of money. It is extremely expensive and isn't worth the investment in a limited airframe such as the JF-17. Chinese avionics is matured and they have better alternatives. We need to work closely with our Chinese partners to develop an AESA radar for JF-17.

The PAF would do wiser to invest in a heavy air superiority fighter which has the possibility to be armed to the teeth. JF-17 and even the F-16 have to be complemented by a long range air superiority fighter. A fighter like the Su-35 is something which fits such a profile. The Su-35 is today within Pakistan's grasp. We have to make the most to get our hands on it.

 

[muhammadali233]

I've given up on this issue now there's ppl who are not worth quoting suggesting PAFs well trained pilots will be the deciding factor and will somehow overcome the technological gap, it's a myth that PAF pilots today are more trained then IAF pilots in the 60s/70s/80s the PAF had a huge edge since the technological disparity wasn't huge but the PAF have been asleep for 2 decades within this timeframe the IAf has adapted itself to BVR combat, PAf only became BVR capable in 2005/2006, PAF don't even have advanced SEAD munitions, through a advancements in technology does training develop, do you honestly believe a highly trained pilot in a F16 will survive a barrage of 8 R77 fired at it by a SU30, even an Israeli pilot will ultimate meet his maker in such a scenario, the best analogy is PAF going into a gun fight with a blade with there opponents armed with AKs there's only 1 outcome in the fight

As much as i agree with you but i suspect you haven't watched deadpool.

 

[MastanKhan]

I've given up on this issue now there's ppl who are not worth quoting suggesting PAFs well trained pilots will be the deciding factor and will somehow overcome the technological gap, it's a myth that PAF pilots today are more trained then IAF pilots in the 60s/70s/80s the PAF had a huge edge since the technological disparity wasn't huge but the PAF have been asleep for 2 decades within this timeframe the IAf has adapted itself to BVR combat, PAf only became BVR capable in 2005/2006, PAF don't even have advanced SEAD munitions, through a advancements in technology does training develop, do you honestly believe a highly trained pilot in a F16 will survive a barrage of 8 R77 fired at it by a SU30, even an Israeli pilot will ultimate meet his maker in such a scenario, the best analogy is PAF going into a gun fight with a blade with there opponents armed with AKs there's only 1 outcome in the fight

Hi,

I don't know why the mod closed your thread on JF17. That was a critical thread.

The weakest link in the pak military is the air force---. If you look at the actions of the air force since the purchase of first batch of the F16's----they amount to treason---more openly in the last 15 years than ever before.

Instead of a fighting force---the paf has become a selling force---it wants to sell aircraft now rather than have air defence and offence.

Once the J10 became available thru Gen Mushy---the work on the JF17 should have been stopped.

Paf is making the public fool and the posters on the pdf are becoming wilful idiots on their own---.

The J10 is to counter U S strikes---it has 110% investment and research from the chinese---JF17 is pakistani against india---it barely has funds to breath----.

And the idiots on this forum claim that this JF17 would become superior the the J10's---because the paf has tested the J10's and claimed it does not meet their standards---.

The fools cannot understand the reason it cannot meet the standards because the JF17 pogram is the GOOSE that is going to lay the GOLDEN EGG for them---so they have blackballed every other aircraft and elec tronic warfare package from china---.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi,

Then does that not defeat the purpose the the F22's and F35----.

Pride is a killer-----. You can be proud of your achievements---not of your state of origin----that is arrogance---.

A good muslim is never a proud muslim----it is un-islamic to be proud of anything.



Hi,

Please explain----in what context----. Where does the satellite coverage come nto force.

The weapons that you had mentioned need active guidance because those are not fire and forget. Even the heat seeking missile need to be targeting till the heat signature is available from where it can continue to follow the trails.

The F22's are in constant link with available satellites hence once the missile locks on the satellite keeps a continues track on target. This is the very reason a stronger EW capability is required to defeat the threat.

It is similar to a lazer pointer which is identifying the target.

 

[MastanKhan]

The weapons that you had mentioned need active guidance because those are not fire and forget. Even the heat seeking missile need to be targeting till the heat signature is available from where it can continue to follow the trails.

The F22's are in constant link with available satellites hence once the missile locks on the satellite keeps a continues track on target. This is the very reason a stronger EW capability is required to defeat the threat.

It is similar to a lazer pointer which is identifying the target.

Hi,

You are talking about a high percentage shot---you can also have a low percentage shot as well---.

For that particular reason---the russians like the 2-3-4 missile salvo of two different kinds of missile at one target----.

And that is the reason why the SU30 carries around 12 bvr's----.

Their sortie of 4 aircraft has 48 BVR's as compared to 8 bvr's in your sortie of 4----.

Their two aircraft can unload all the their 24 missiles at 4 of your aircraft at 70-80 % kill range---scoot off---and while your aircraft are going to be busy trying to counter the 6 missiles at each aircraft---the remaining two enemy aircraft can get closer & launch their load as well.

The stealth aircraft does not need the satellite---it can use the awacs---it can use another stealth aircraft or it can use the resources of a BVR truck like the B1---.

Hi,

The problems with you kids and adults is----that from a worst case scenario---you are wanting the best case results----.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi,

You are talking about a high percentage shot---you can also have a low percentage shot as well---.

For that particular reason---the russians like the 2-3-4 missile salvo of two different kinds of missile at one target----.

And that is the reason why the SU30 carries around 12 bvr's----.

Their sortie of 4 aircraft has 48 BVR's as compared to 8 bvr's in your sortie of 4----.

Their two aircraft can unload all the their 24 missiles at 4 of your aircraft at 70-80 % kill range---scoot off---and while your aircraft are going to be busy trying to counter the 6 missiles at each aircraft---the remaining two enemy aircraft can get closer & launch their load as well.

The stealth aircraft does not need the satellite---it can use the awacs---it can use another stealth aircraft or it can use the resources of a BVR truck like the B1---.

Hi,

The problems with you kids and adults is----that from a worst case scenario---you are wanting the best case results----.

Hi,
The Stealth technology or for that mater any technology that USA is currently having does not match many developed countries. The Russians on the other hand rely on shear numbers which makes it rather very difficult to stop or defend against. This is the reason the Red Army was usually known as a "Steam Roller".

The net-centric approach requiring situational awarenesses through AWAC's and EW aircraft you are talking about is not available in case of deep strike missions. These solutions only provide a defensive posture and Air Superiority over Pakistan alone. For PAF to attain decent deep strike and BVR capability of Low percentage short in enemy territory is fairly small unless they have other platforms that can assist. This would require PAF to have complete air superiority over India.

The next generation weapons might give PAF some sort of advantage but that would require a strong radar and stealth features in the missiles.

 

[ConcealCarry]

Not the aircraft, pilots. Russians believe in overwhelming the opponent with numbers

Sir,

Those days of pointing the aircraft in the direction of missile launch are over---modern missiles are smart fire and forget missiles---. Some old stocks might be there.

As for the missile travelling at 3000 miles per hoiur---it will have to take around 250 to 300 G's to match the 9 G of the aircraft flying at mach .7.

First thing---this breakoff has a miniscule window of opportunity---secondly---there is a second missile coming behind it----

AND THIRDLY---the russians aircraft launch 4 BVR's in a salvo at one target---so even if it has 25% kill ratio---there is still 1 in 4 chances of hitting---.

And the missile don't need to hit direct---a proximity fuse can blow up the missile as well---which can do serious damage to the aircraft.

Stop this bullsh-it about " non argument "---.

 

[Zain Malik]

French avionics is a waste of money. It is extremely expensive and isn't worth the investment in a limited airframe such as the JF-17. Chinese avionics is matured and they have better alternatives. We need to work closely with our Chinese partners to develop an AESA radar for JF-17.

The PAF would do wiser to invest in a heavy air superiority fighter which has the possibility to be armed to the teeth. JF-17 and even the F-16 have to be complemented by a long range air superiority fighter. A fighter like the Su-35 is something which fits such a profile. The Su-35 is today within Pakistan's grasp. We have to make the most to get our hands on it.

But But But with French avionics many potential buyers will came to us who dont like Chinese avionics.....