France - Pakistan , Avionics & possibly Plane deal revival, Post cancellation of MRCA

[Dalit]

But But But with French avionics many potential buyers will came to us who dont like Chinese avionics.....

I wasn't talking about other customers, but our own requirements. Our requirements dictate the purchase of an air superiority fighter.

Of course, if buyers want French avionics on the JF-17 they can foot the bill. No problem with that.

 

[Zain Malik]

I wasn't talking about other customers, but our own requirements. Our requirements dictate the purchase of an air superiority fighter.

Of course, if buyers want French avionics on the JF-17 they can foot the bill. No problem with that.

Hmmmm.....The true 4++ Genereation Air Superiority Fighter will be Non export version JFt Block Iv

 

[Dalit]

Hi,

I don't know why the mod closed your thread on JF17. That was a critical thread.

The weakest link in the pak military is the air force---. If you look at the actions of the air force since the purchase of first batch of the F16's----they amount to treason---more openly in the last 15 years than ever before.

Instead of a fighting force---the paf has become a selling force---it wants to sell aircraft now rather than have air defence and offence.

Once the J10 became available thru Gen Mushy---the work on the JF17 should have been stopped.

Paf is making the public fool and the posters on the pdf are becoming wilful idiots on their own---.

The J10 is to counter U S strikes---it has 110% investment and research from the chinese---JF17 is pakistani against india---it barely has funds to breath----.

And the idiots on this forum claim that this JF17 would become superior the the J10's---because the paf has tested the J10's and claimed it does not meet their standards---.

The fools cannot understand the reason it cannot meet the standards because the JF17 pogram is the GOOSE that is going to lay the GOLDEN EGG for them---so they have blackballed every other aircraft and elec tronic warfare package from china---.

I concur. The JF-17 is a good economic package for the PAF, but the airframe design has its limitations. This was already apparent on the drawing board. It is very important to realize that the JF-17 was designed to lower the overall mass replacement cost of our aging fleet. The PAF has limited funds. It has to make the most within these constraints. The benefits of the Chinese Pak JV are enormous. Not only have we developed a fighter which provides complete self reliance, but our domestic defense aviation industry has also gained exposure in the process. For Pakistan, it has been a complete win win.

Our adversary is opting for advanced aircraft. We don't need to delve into their capabilities because they speak volume. Our adversary has both abundant resources and the blessing of a superpower. Our adversary has no obstacles. We on the other hand have to face certain impediments. Having said that, currently we have excellent options at our disposal to make up for this deficiency. There is wide acknowledgement that in the light of the latest developments, the PAF requires a superior counter alternative. The JF-17 along with the F-16 are good 4th gen platforms which can act as force multipliers and the bulk of the air force.

First and foremost, we have the Chinese option. The J-10C is indeed an attractive and viable option as a long range fighter requirement. This platform can be purchased in greater numbers and since China is a close ally, these fighters could be acquired on favorable economic terms. The PAF could even opt to work on the avionics side with the Chinese to further enhance its specific requirements. In other words, the Chinese option is the most logical.

The other option is the Russian Su-35. We know that talks have been ongoing and the Russians have openly admitted their willingness to sell these fighters to Pakistan. Needless to say, but this fighter is truly the very definition of a long range air superiority fighter. In short, it offers the complete package. It is an investment worth making because our requirements dictate it.

Some people who propose that the JF-17 and F-16 are sufficient to counter aggressive designs from across the border are in denial. Whilst these fighters can act as the main bulk workhorse of the PAF, we cannot ignore the fact that we require an additional frontline air superiority premium fighter. Whilst the PAF has no aggressive nor any offensive designs, it requires a premium fighter whose presence would make the enemy quiver and think before making any misadventures attempts. Additionally, the air superiority fighter needs to fulfill naval duties in order to secure our newly acquired maritime interests.

There is no debate about acquiring a frontline long range platform. It is only a matter of when.

 

[CHI RULES]

I concur. The JF-17 is a good economic package for the PAF, but the airframe design has its limitations. This was already apparent on the drawing board. It is very important to realize that the JF-17 was designed to lower the overall mass replacement cost of our aging fleet. The PAF has limited funds. It has to make the most within these constraints.

Our adversary is opting for advanced aircraft. It has both abundant resources and the blessing of a superpower. We on the other hand have economic and other constraints to deal with. Having said that, currently we have excellent options at our disposal to make up for this deficiency. There is wide acknowledgement that in the light of the latest a developments, the PAF requires a superior and heavy counter alternative. The JF-17 along with the F-16 are good 4th gen platforms which can act as force multipliers and the bulk of the air force.

First and foremost, we have the Chinese option. The J-10C is indeed an attractive and viable option as a long range fighter requirement. This platform can be purchased in greater numbers and since China is a close ally, these fighters could be acquired with softer loans. The PAF could even opt to work on the avionics side with the Chinese to further enhance its specific requirements. In other words, the Chinese option is the most logical.

The other option is the Russian Su-35. We know that talks have been ongoing and the Russians have openly admitted their willingness to sell these fighters to Pakistan. Needless to say, but this fighter is truly the very definition of a long range air superiority fighter. In short, it offers the complete package. It is an investment worth making because our requirements dictate it.

Some people who propose that the JF-17 and F-16 are sufficient to counter the aggressive designs from across the border are in denial. Whilst these fighters can act as the main bulk workhorse of the PAF, we cannot ignore the fact that we require an additional frontline air superiority premium fighter. Whilst PAF has no aggressive nor any offensive designs, it requires a premium fighter whose presence should make the enemy quiver and think before making misadventures attempts. Additionally, the air superiority fighter needs to fulfill naval duties in order to secure our newly acquired maritime interests.

There is no debate about acquiring a frontline long range platform. It is only a matter of when.

Dear PAF can easily develop block -III JF17 into true 4.5th gen A to A fighter jet with limited bomber capabilities but including Western AESA, EW suit and next gen Missiles, which still maay prove to be economical than foreign fighters. Secondly Pak should go for SU35s in limited numbers for deep strike missions only not for interception roles.
Further PAF shouldn't go for J10c considering limited funding if possible should partner with China for development of FC31 as soon as possible.

( Further J10 series is seriously facing engine and avionics issues).

 

[Dalit]

Dear PAF can easily develop block -III JF17 into true 4.5th gen A to A fighter jet with limited bomber capabilities but including Western AESA, EW suit and next gen Missiles, which still maay prove to be economical than foreign fighters. Secondly Pak should go for SU35s in limited numbers for deep strike missions only not for interception roles.
Further PAF shouldn't go for J10c considering limited funding if possible should partner with China for development of FC31 as soon as possible.

( Further J10 series is seriously facing engine and avionics issues).

I also propose to keep working on improving the JF-17. I don't agree with the acquisition of costly Western avionics and sensors. Besides, we don't even know whether Western sources would be willing to sell this hardware to Pakistan. In fact, the chances are very slim. The chances of acquiring the Su-35 are today in contrast much more viable.

Having said that, if need be, China can work out a deal with the Russians for providing an engine for J-10C just like the JF-17. I don't believe the Chinese are having problems with the avionics on the J-10C.

 

[ghazi768]

Hi,

I don't know why the mod closed your thread on JF17. That was a critical thread.

The weakest link in the pak military is the air force---. If you look at the actions of the air force since the purchase of first batch of the F16's----they amount to treason---more openly in the last 15 years than ever before.

Instead of a fighting force---the paf has become a selling force---it wants to sell aircraft now rather than have air defence and offence.

Once the J10 became available thru Gen Mushy---the work on the JF17 should have been stopped.

Paf is making the public fool and the posters on the pdf are becoming wilful idiots on their own---.

The J10 is to counter U S strikes---it has 110% investment and research from the chinese---JF17 is pakistani against india---it barely has funds to breath----.

And the idiots on this forum claim that this JF17 would become superior the the J10's---because the paf has tested the J10's and claimed it does not meet their standards---.

The fools cannot understand the reason it cannot meet the standards because the JF17 pogram is the GOOSE that is going to lay the GOLDEN EGG for them---so they have blackballed every other aircraft and elec tronic warfare package from china---.

What PAF has to do to so that you stop your used car with only one 'treason' gear...

Induct an unwieldy, and old tactical bomber re-incarnated as a grand BVR truck and sends its pilots on a one way ticket to Indian airspace with plea of patriotism or promises of Janat...

Or Induct under-powered Gripen and sign a long juicy service contract with Saab. Otherwise face ignominy of South Africans who can barely keep flying 8-9 out of 26 old Gripens because they dared to not renew service contract with Saab. South africans at-least have the good luck of no having any enemy jets at their borders. In our case, will your used cars keep on defending us against indian jets...

Or sell our flesh as well as soul to germans and grant whatever whims and wishes they come up with so that they can throw a few typhoons at us..

If you do not have the intellect to comprehend these issues at-least have the DECENCY to not sling mud at others..

 

[ghazi768]

I concur. The JF-17 is a good economic package for the PAF, but the airframe design has its limitations. This was already apparent on the drawing board. It is very important to realize that the JF-17 was designed to lower the overall mass replacement cost of our aging fleet. The PAF has limited funds. It has to make the most within these constraints. The benefits of the Chinese Pak JV are enormous. Not only have we developed a fighter which provides complete self reliance, but our domestic defense aviation industry has also gained exposure in the process. For Pakistan, it has been a complete win win.

Our adversary is opting for advanced aircraft. We don't need to delve into their capabilities because they speak volume. Our adversary has both abundant resources and the blessing of a superpower. Our adversary has no obstacles. We on the other hand have to face certain impediments. Having said that, currently we have excellent options at our disposal to make up for this deficiency. There is wide acknowledgement that in the light of the latest developments, the PAF requires a superior counter alternative. The JF-17 along with the F-16 are good 4th gen platforms which can act as force multipliers and the bulk of the air force.

First and foremost, we have the Chinese option. The J-10C is indeed an attractive and viable option as a long range fighter requirement. This platform can be purchased in greater numbers and since China is a close ally, these fighters could be acquired on favorable economic terms. The PAF could even opt to work on the avionics side with the Chinese to further enhance its specific requirements. In other words, the Chinese option is the most logical.

The other option is the Russian Su-35. We know that talks have been ongoing and the Russians have openly admitted their willingness to sell these fighters to Pakistan. Needless to say, but this fighter is truly the very definition of a long range air superiority fighter. In short, it offers the complete package. It is an investment worth making because our requirements dictate it.

Some people who propose that the JF-17 and F-16 are sufficient to counter aggressive designs from across the border are in denial. Whilst these fighters can act as the main bulk workhorse of the PAF, we cannot ignore the fact that we require an additional frontline air superiority premium fighter. Whilst the PAF has no aggressive nor any offensive designs, it requires a premium fighter whose presence would make the enemy quiver and think before making any misadventures attempts. Additionally, the air superiority fighter needs to fulfill naval duties in order to secure our newly acquired maritime interests.

There is no debate about acquiring a frontline long range platform. It is only a matter of when.

Yes, you are right. Our situation is not exemplary but also not precarious like some forum posters are portraying. We have our strengths and our vulnerabilities, the same is the case with our adversary as well, they have some glaring vulnerabilities as well.

We need to induct a platform to become our top tier and handle our needs for next 2-3 decades but I doubt that it will be either J-10 or Su-35 or any western platforms. It will most probably be a redesigned version of an already prototyped J series platform, redesigned (or lets say improvised) to remove its too much drag and to much energy depletion etc.

J10 is a very good platform and fighter but there isn't any significant advantages in inducting it as a separate platform. This issue, I am very sure of, had been deliberated long and seriously before deciding otherwise. Also to ensure that it is not under-powered, Russian engine have to be used, which first mean you end up negotiating 'terms and conditions' with Russia (which few years earlier looked doubtful). It is a highly juiced up engine, has much lower overall life and MTBO and more pone to needing service work, has much higher SPC which results in constraining tactical options. Also as a dog fighter, it does not adhere to energy based manoeuvres, adheres more to the Russian-European philosophy of low speed manoeuvres.

Su-35 is Navy's idea I am sure of not PAF, Navy historically have this habit of going for the most expensive shit available in the market even if they cannot afford it. It's a bad idea to induct a platform as your top tier which is very similar to your adversary's top tier. Its handing over the plate all its strengths and weaknesses to your adversary, they already know all of them. It has serious availability issues because of avionics and its engine which is similar to what I have mentioned above. Just keeping force availability of 65% or above for a sustained air campaign will be a Herculean task. Also the available force will have a far lower sortie rate than what we are used to and comfortable with.

 

[MastanKhan]

What PAF has to do to so that you stop your used car with only one 'treason' gear...

Induct an unwieldy, and old tactical bomber re-incarnated as a grand BVR truck and sends its pilots on a one way ticket to Indian airspace with plea of patriotism or promises of Janat...

Or Induct under-powered Gripen and sign a long juicy service contract with Saab. Otherwise face ignominy of South Africans who can barely keep flying 8-9 out of 26 old Gripens because they dared to not renew service contract with Saab. South africans at-least have the good luck of no having any enemy jets at their borders. In our case, will your used cars keep on defending us against indian jets...

Or sell our flesh as well as soul to germans and grant whatever whims and wishes they come up with so that they can throw a few typhoons at us..

If you do not have the intellect to comprehend these issues at-least have the DECENCY to not sling mud at others..

Hi,

Signing for Gripen is again tantamount to confirming treason---because the JF17 is a copy of the Gripen---.

My used cars will defend against those boxy used cars that india had----other than that---to defend---a potent aircraft would have to be procured.

Now suddenly----you are posing the air force to be as helpless as a new born puppy.

Mud slinging---I have not even started----. It is not mud slinging---it is throwing a light on what the paf has been doing.

As I have stated many a times---no one has dared to put the air forces feet on fire----on the media---.

We need to see some ars-es in blue being roasted and the nation told about their criminal negligence.

The nation needs to get a clear picture of what the air force has not done---then let the nation decide.

 

[ghazi768]

Hi,

Signing for Gripen is again tantamount to confirming treason---because the JF17 is a copy of the Gripen---.

My used cars will defend against those boxy used cars that india had----other than that---to defend---a potent aircraft would have to be procured.

Now suddenly----you are posing the air force to be as helpless as a new born puppy.

Mud slinging---I have not even started----. It is not mud slinging---it is throwing a light on what the paf has been doing.

As I have stated many a times---no one has dared to put the air forces feet on fire----on the media---.

We need to see some ars-es in blue being roasted and the nation told about their criminal negligence.

The nation needs to get a clear picture of what the air force has not done---then let the nation decide.

Where did I pose PAF to be helpless as new born puppy?

You must be used to a 'higher' standard of mud slinging then.

 

[thrilainmanila]

Hi,

I don't know why the mod closed your thread on JF17. That was a critical thread.

The weakest link in the pak military is the air force---. If you look at the actions of the air force since the purchase of first batch of the F16's----they amount to treason---more openly in the last 15 years than ever before.

Instead of a fighting force---the paf has become a selling force---it wants to sell aircraft now rather than have air defence and offence.

Once the J10 became available thru Gen Mushy---the work on the JF17 should have been stopped.

Paf is making the public fool and the posters on the pdf are becoming wilful idiots on their own---.

The J10 is to counter U S strikes---it has 110% investment and research from the chinese---JF17 is pakistani against india---it barely has funds to breath----.

And the idiots on this forum claim that this JF17 would become superior the the J10's---because the paf has tested the J10's and claimed it does not meet their standards---.

The fools cannot understand the reason it cannot meet the standards because the JF17 pogram is the GOOSE that is going to lay the GOLDEN EGG for them---so they have blackballed every other aircraft and elec tronic warfare package from china---.

i agree, every decent airforce needs to revise decisions, and look ahead at all potential threats,
PAF is no exception, having the J-10B and J-10C would have made a massive difference compared to the current crop. anything the F-16 BLK52 can do the J-10B/C could also do and more. I'd rather have an airforce of 100 J-10B/C and 50 F-16s vs JF-17/F-16. the J-10 can be moulded to deal with the rafale the JF-17 never will. the F-16s are a goddamn burden. its useless talking about this. the JF-17 was a fighter which should have been introduced back in the 90s when PAF was getting messed over by the pressler ammendment. I just hope for the humility of the armed forces that peace prevails and that war doesn't break out, because the level of humiliation the PAF will recieve will be akin to what the syrians recieved in bekka valley. it will be a massive turkey shoot. and only then will some of these so called air marshals realize there mistake but theres no accountability these days. people will quickly forget about it and remember the drone that they managed to shootdown.

 

[wiseone2]

Look , We need 190 planes , now will we get all planes in 1 day (NO)

First Batch: (2015-2020)

• Cost of RAFALE US$101,000,000 / Plane
• Cost of 45 planes , 4.5 Billion Dollars

Cost of Missiles Package:

• 500 Million

Whole deal 5.0 Billion dollars (Spread over 5 years)

India spent 8.8 billion for 36 aircraft. I do not see the PAF getting a better deal. Of course with IAF signing the deal it is off the table for the PAF

 

[princefaisal]

Best economically viable options for PAF are to stick with F-16s and JF-17s with introduction of more advanced blocks of JF-17 in near future. Now the debate of how, when & other economic constraints issues will end.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

@AZADPAKISTAN2009

The JF 17 avionics deal was cancelled due to US pressure

The JF17 avionics deal, being fronted by ATE, was canceled due to the Mirage 2000 upgrade deal and under Indian pressure. Don't drag the americans into something they have no control of.

There is no French avionics for JF17 on the offer, and none will be considered. PAF has come a long way since the previous disasters, and has many options on the table.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The JF17 avionics deal, being fronted by ATE, was canceled due to the Mirage 2000 upgrade deal and under Indian pressure. Don't drag the americans into something they have no control of.

There is no French avionics for JF17 on the offer, and none will be considered. PAF has come a long way since the previous disasters, and has many options on the table.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IJ10Df01.html

The JF17 avionics deal, being fronted by ATE, was canceled due to the Mirage 2000 upgrade deal and under Indian pressure. Don't drag the americans into something they have no control of.

There is no French avionics for JF17 on the offer, and none will be considered. PAF has come a long way since the previous disasters, and has many options on the table.

You should read on the massive US - Europe dispute ;disagreement and show down happened
over France and Germany's desire to sell Arms to China in 2005 and 2006

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IJ10Df01.html

We are talking different deals. RC400 and Mica were never cleared for JF17, however, the avionics package for Block II, including full french cockpit was cleared by DGA and then adopted for Mirage 2000. My information does not come from media.