France is Racist !

[amalakas]

Wrong.

BBC NEWS | Europe | French clerics oppose scarf ban

The commission's recommendations would outlaw the Jewish kippa, large Christian crosses and the Islamic headscarf, which would be considered overt religious symbols.

"Discreet" medallions and pendants which merely confirm a person's religious faith would be allowed.

Christians don't walk around with 'large crosses', instead wearing pendants, so they are not impacted by this law at all. Jews also were allowed to wear the kippa or yarmulka for centuries without fuss. The law was specifically enacted as a reaction to Muslim girls wearing the headscarf.

Oh my GOD..

Listen, I'll give it to you plain.

If I were a muslim, living in France and I were to see a jew wearing the kippa or whatever else, and NOBODY told him anything, I'd hire a lawyer, take some photos, a couple of documents and witnesses and FRIKKIN SUE THE STATE AND MAKE MILLIONS... !!!!!

what is it you don't understand ???? the law is the law but instead of seeing what is what, you prefer to rebel in a frikkin forum against France or whatever.

please..................enough with all these childish arguments and how the muslims are mistreated or whatever....

 

[Developereo]

Oh my GOD..

Listen, I'll give it to you plain.

If I were a muslim, living in France and I were to see a jew wearing the kippa or whatever else, and NOBODY told him anything, I'd hire a lawyer, take some photos, a couple of documents and witnesses and FRIKKIN SUE THE STATE AND MAKE MILLIONS... !!!!!

what is it you don't understand ???? the law is the law but instead of seeing what is what, you prefer to rebel in a frikkin forum against France or whatever.

please..................enough with all these childish arguments and how the muslims are mistreated or whatever....

You seem to have trouble with reading comprehension, or logic, or both.

What part of

"Discreet" medallions and pendants which merely confirm a person's religious faith would be allowed.

do you have trouble understanding?

The issue is the ban on 'conspicuous' religious symbols in schools.
The law bans Muslim headscarfs and Jewish kippas.
The law does NOT ban pendants with Christian crosses or star of David.
The law is discriminatory.

 

[Hussein]

Actually it is you who is ignorant here, so let me open your eyes.

The French law banning headscarfs for schoolgirls does NOT bar necklaces with Christian crosses or the star of David. It only bars 'conspicuous' religion symbols. Apparently, Jewish men wearing a yarmulka didn't bother the French for centuries, but as soon as Muslim schoolgirls showed up with a headscarf all hell broke loose and the entire French nation went into a self-righteous paroxysm of xenophobia.

And on the subject of the burqa, since your assertion is that it should be banned because it is an outward symbol of religion, then why aren't the French banning the Jewish yarmulka on men?

Let's cut the crap and say it like it is. These laws are nothing more than typical French xenophobia and the legitimization of Islamophobia in Europe.



Spot on!

I, too have lived in France and it is a fact that the French have a giant broom up their proverbial a$$. They are so uptight about their culture and so averse to external influences that they actually have a full time government department for 'the preservation of French culture'.

It is a standard joke in Europe and the US that if you go to France and ask directions in English, you are as likely to get deliberately wrong directions as right ones.



Correction: according to Amnesty International, it is practised by various religious and ethnic groups in Eastern Africa and the Middle East. The practise is not restricted to any particular religion or ethnicity.

sorry to say but you are totally wrong

About the scarf at school: it is only in national public school
and yes the croice is forbidden (christian croice)
INDEED the law is simple: NO religious sign at school
it is that simple
Now all girls and boys who want to live with a religious sign can go private schools and they are many not expensive here where the teachers are mostly paid by the state

About the minister of culture department.
There is a minister of culture yes. And yes it is obvious they do programs to favor teaching of French litterature, they help French cinema
The only part that was criticized as i can remember was the radio: they have to put 50% of French music so it doesn't be only english songs
For cinema > French movies are so popular here that there is no need
French like proudly their culture
Us, Iranians, we are proud of it
I wish and hope deeply Pakistan and India and any country is proud of its culture. Not until the point they forbid the other cultures.

Sadly some points are not as open minded as Canada or USA about expression of culture. Foreign cultures i mean.
For exemple in Canada we do new year in the streets with fire and lot of fun together. Here not because everyone believes that to be French we need to forget where we come from.
The foreigners like me are somewhat guilty to be too shy.
For exemple the major of Paris made a big parti for new year... the Iranians are not going there. Mostly kurds go there and once i could even hear that they are the kurds who created it (what a joke when you know a little bit history).

Whatever we should not exagerate racism here.
In USA they are more open minded BUT in the same time you can be insulted being muslim terrorist when here you can go to the police and complain against someone who insults you with racist insults
and you 're sure to win
sicne they are many many associations to help in this matter

 

[amalakas]

You seem to have trouble with reading comprehension, or logic, or both.

What part of

do you have trouble understanding?

The issue is the ban on 'conspicuous' religious symbols in schools.
The law bans Muslim headscarfs and Jewish kippas.
The law does NOT ban pendants with Christian crosses or star of David.
The law is discriminatory.

No it isn't... that is you don't get.

 

[somebozo]

Ok france is racist and the arabi brothers are........
My family is severly infected with "moododi doctrine". Ever since I have grown up and taken matters in my hand no releatives with similar infection like to visit our house anymore

After 30 Years, Husband Lifts Wife's Buruga - Faces Divorce...

A 50-year-old Saudi woman asked for divorce after her husband lifted her face veil while she was sleeping, local press reported.

For 30 years, the wife said she never showed her face to her husband in conformity with the tradition of her native village near the south western Saudi city of Khamis Mushayt.

"After all these years, he tries to commit such a big mistake," the wife told Saudi newspaper Al-Riyadh, after she left the house in total disbelief.

She said the husband apologized and promised never to do it again.

This is not the first case of husbands who have not seen their wives' faces in decades.

In the past Al Arabiya has reported the case of Ali al-Qahtani, whose wife had been wearing the face veil for the entire ten years of their marrage. When he tried to take it off, she threatened to leave and only decided to stay after he swore never to try again.

Hassan Al-Atibi threatened to marry another woman if his wife didn't show him her face. The woman nominated one of her friends who doesn't observe this tradition as a possible new wife for him, saying this would be better than her showing her face.

And neither the husband or children of Om Rabea al-Gahdaray, 70, have ever seen her face. Al-Gahdaray says it is a family tradition, also followed by mother and sisters, which her husband accepted and never tried to change.

When asked how she could have kids without her husband ever seeing her face, she replied: "Marriage is about love, not faces."

 

[Developereo]

sorry to say but you are totally wrong

About the scarf at school: it is only in national public school
and yes the croice is forbidden (christian croice)
INDEED the law is simple: NO religious sign at school
it is that simple

It is NOT that simple.
Sorry, but you do not know the intricacies of your own law.
It doesn't say "NO religious sign at school".
It says "NO conspicuous religious sign at school".
The weasel word is "conspicuous", meanign that "discreet" religious signs, i.e. small necklaces with Christian cross are allowed under the law.

Now all girls and boys who want to live with a religious sign can go private schools and they are many not expensive here where the teachers are mostly paid by the state

It is irrelevant.
The State's responsibility is to provide equal opportunity without religious discrimination. The French law discriminates: it bans the Muslim headscarf, but allows necklaces with the Christian cross.

About the minister of culture department.
There is a minister of culture yes. And yes it is obvious they do programs to favor teaching of French litterature, they help French cinema
The only part that was criticized as i can remember was the radio: they have to put 50% of French music so it doesn't be only english songs
For cinema > French movies are so popular here that there is no need
French like proudly their culture
Us, Iranians, we are proud of it
I wish and hope deeply Pakistan and India and any country is proud of its culture. Not until the point they forbid the other cultures.

There is a difference between being proud and being anal. The French are a laughing stock in Europe and the US because of their 'minitry for the preservation of French culture'. The older generation gets all bent out of shape because French youths use 'weekend' instead of 'fin de semaine'.

For exemple in Canada we do new year in the streets with fire and lot of fun together. Here not because everyone believes that to be French we need to forget where we come from.

And yet the French did a big bash for the Chinese New Year. It didn't seem to bother them too much...

Whatever we should not exagerate racism here.

I am not saying France is the most racist country, or that the majority of French are racist, but some facts are irrefutable.

It is a fact that the French headscarf ban is discriminatory.
It is a fact that 60% of French oppose Turkey's bid for the EU because it is a Muslim country.

No it isn't... that is you don't get.

I specifically disproved your assertion and showed you where the French law is openly discriminatory.

Covering your ears and eyes and shouting 'na na na na' while ignoring facts is no way to deal with reality.

 

[Hussein]

It is NOT that simple.
Sorry, but you do not know the intricacies of your own law.
It doesn't say "NO religious sign at school".
It says "NO conspicuous religious sign at school".
The weasel word is "conspicuous", meanign that "discreet" religious signs, i.e. small necklaces with Christian cross are allowed under the law.

Loi française sur les signes religieux dans les écoles publiques - Wikipédia

Dans les écoles, les collèges et les lycées publics, le port de signes ou tenues par lesquels les élèves manifestent ostensiblement une appartenance religieuse est interdit.

i translate the law: in the school public ones, to wear religious symbol that show "OSTENSIBLEMENT" (means they promote the religion by a obvious (very visible) religious sign) what is your religion is forbidden

So at school you can see the different little signs which are often hidden below clothes: the croice at necklace and the fatimah hand are allowed ! so there is no preference at all
by the way it is often forgotten but there were cases against sikhs and some other religion who wanted to get the right to be an exception in the public school.

As well, the president Chirac wanted the jew and muslim most important days to be holliday.

There is a difference between being proud and being anal. The French are a laughing stock in Europe and the US because of their 'minitry for the preservation of French culture'. The older generation gets all bent out of shape because French youths use 'weekend' instead of 'fin de semaine'.

I AM IRANIAN
how many times i have to say it????

the minister is french culture nothing to do with "ministry for preservation of French culture". Culture minister is happy to organize the music national day where many foreign groups come in France
They invite international artists to come
IT IS CULTURAL NO IDEOLOGICAL

About the French words: canadians have fun about it.
no old man never used 'fin de semaine"
thery all use "week end"

And yet the French did a big bash for the Chinese New Year. It didn't seem to bother them too much...

there is in Paris the only other culture which SHOWS a lot
they do parti in the streets and Parisians are quite happy to see it
NO other culture is showing as much as them. it is no problem about it.

I am not saying France is the most racist country, or that the majority of French are racist, but some facts are irrefutable.

they are close minded for many and didn't travel much
some are racists a minority of them like in any society i agree with that
Sarkozy is part of them

It is a fact that 60% of French oppose Turkey's bid for the EU because it is a Muslim country.

this is another shame
but i explained once in this forum the reasons explained here
French people like most European are closed to Turkey entering and majority of Europeans don't want Romania and any new country entering because they don't see good of it

it is important to understand i try to say what i know
maybe i am wrong i am honest at least

 

[Developereo]

i translate the law: in the school public ones, to wear religious symbol that show "OSTENSIBLEMENT" (means they promote the religion by a obvious (very visible) religious sign) what is your religion is forbidden

First, thank you for proving my point that the weasel word 'ostensible' is in the law.

So at school you can see the different little signs which are often hidden below clothes: the croice at necklace and the fatimah hand are allowed ! so there is no preference at all

Except that the traditional Muslim religious symbol is the headscarf, not a fatimah pendant. The traditional Christian religious symbol is a necklace/pendant with the cross. The law is carefully worded to disallow one, while leaving the other alone.

And the law says nothing about being covered by clothes -- only that it should be "discreet". Why make such an exemption? If the French are so serious about secularism, then all religious symbols should be banned, no exceptions. Why do they have this interesting exemption for "discreet" religious symbols?

Answer: to allow traditional pendants with Christian crosses.

by the way it is often forgotten but there were cases against sikhs and some other religion who wanted to get the right to be an exception in the public school.

I don't dispute that there was collateral damage in this law. Poor old Jews, who used to be free to wear their yarmulka in school for centuries, now cannot do so. All because of the latest orgy of xenophobia triggered by the Muslim headscarf.

As well, the president Chirac wanted the jew and muslim most important days to be holliday.

Politicians say lots of things that they safely know have no chance of becoming reality.

I AM IRANIAN
how many times i have to say it????

This discussion is about France. I am sorry but I really don't care if you are Iranian or Martian. If you are speaking for France, then that is all that matters.

the minister is french culture nothing to do with "ministry for preservation of French culture". Culture minister is happy to organize the music national day where many foreign groups come in France

Then you are going off-track. My remarks were specifically about the ministry for the preservation of French culture, not the French cultural ministry. I assume the two have some sort of relationship, but it is irrelevant.

there is in Paris the only other culture which SHOWS a lot
they do parti in the streets and Parisians are quite happy to see it
NO other culture is showing as much as them. it is no problem about it.

I don't understand this part. Are you saying that Chinese culture is prominent in Paris and is the only foreign culture tolerated by the Parisians?

 

[amalakas]

I specifically disproved your assertion and showed you where the French law is openly discriminatory.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you haven't, you think you have.

and Hussein is also trying to help you see the light but he isn't doing much better than me unfortunately.

 

[Hussein]

First, thank you for proving my point that the weasel word 'ostensible' is in the law.

ostensible doesn't mean what you mean
ostensible as i explained and explained in wiki link in french for this law means the principe of the republic FAR BEFORE there is any muslim in this country !!!
So wtf are you saying this is made for making a hell for muslims LOL

Again : if a woman wants to wear scarf she can go to private school
and as explained before the religious christians they want religious education that only be teached in private schools like it can for muslims

when i see the kids leaving the schools the public ones i didn't see croices around their neck and when you know that the teachers are very much left minded in public school (which gives problems for the right wing for doing any reform but its' another problem) they didn't tolerate any speech of religion especially christian which the laic coutnry fought against . the french republic was created with a distance to the christian authority, not to the muslim authority

Except that the traditional Muslim religious symbol is the headscarf, not a fatimah pendant. The traditional Christian religious symbol is a necklace/pendant with the cross. The law is carefully worded to disallow one, while leaving the other alone.

it is your mistake.
THE LAW DOESN(T CARE
that's that simple. the people here are not going to read holy books to understand they do a general law.

And the law says nothing about being covered by clothes -- only that it should be "discreet". Why make such an exemption? If the French are so serious about secularism, then all religious symbols should be banned, no exceptions. Why do they have this interesting exemption for "discreet" religious symbols?

I explained in the past message
so again let me say what was written in the wiki and is the law
it is not "discreet" but it is forbidden to use a religious sign that would be enough visible to promote a religion in the public school.

It happened many times kids were kicked out because of croice.
I could see once on tv even once that in a school people complained because they put a croice inside a room
As well the sikh as well they cannot use their symbol
and even the "bandana" was forbidden at school because the student said it was his religion.

the jews who wanted to use their kippa they had to go to private school
they are used with it. we should be used as well with it.
In toulouse there is a new school built for muslims... they are going to be built soon.

Then you are going off-track. My remarks were specifically about the ministry for the preservation of French culture, not the French cultural ministry. I assume the two have some sort of relationship, but it is irrelevant.

there is NO such minister
maybe you confused with the new "minister of French identity"
but about it, big majority of French are not happy about this
it was criticized and you know the explanation who gives the president here?
he said that because some people are insulting the French song during the foot ball games (which is true sadly) , because they are some young people who say and write on walls "**** france"... some people need to be reminded as said the president "france you love it or you leave it"
but it isi another matter to speak about

I don't understand this part. Are you saying that Chinese culture is prominent in Paris and is the only foreign culture tolerated by the Parisians?

No no no
As i explained sooner: the problem is that the people who come here they don't do anything to organize things: i can see for Iranians they just care for their own
and it is not like in Canada where you go party together you have a communauty life .
Chinese are far more communauty like INSIDE France when the other people are not doing it
It is because the east asians and the chinese people they are enough organized it is because they want more to be together ...
but nobody is allowing only chinese to do so (and not the other)

if let's say 1000 Iranians go to the major of Paris asking to make a party there for new year it would be accepted. They just are so individuals that Iranians just care to be inside family hidden in their houses/appartments.
Yep Iranians in Paris are far different than the ones in Canada
and the ones in Iran are far more social minded and not selfish
(just my point of view)

 

[Ras]

OP...France may or may not be racist but they are certainly less racist than Saudi Arabia.

Why don't you create a thread about that?

 

[Ras]

Maybe Muslim countries should put up their barriers and make any females coming from the West to their countries, whether as tourists, business or diplomatic reasons, MUST wear face veils as per their Law of the Land.

Saudi Arabia does mandate that.

 

[NWO]

If your fellow muslims in France feel that ONLY their "signs" are being banned while for example jews can wear their own identifiable "signs" then they should take their case to the court and for sure win it, because the law clearly states ALL religious signs.

The problem I see is that the law is left up to interpretation. It's written rather vaguely. The question here is whether or not the judge/jury will truly be neutral here. Kind of the blasphemy laws in Pakistan. They are supposed to protect all religions, but are often used only against religious minorities.

 

[amalakas]

The problem I see is that the law is left up to interpretation. It's written rather vaguely. The question here is whether or not the judge/jury will truly be neutral here. Kind of the blasphemy laws in Pakistan. They are supposes to protect all religions, but are often used only against religious minorities.

I hear you, and this can be a legitimate fear against any law to be honest with you.

That is however why there are many judicial layers and if one court does not do justice you can always appeal to the next level and gather some public support in the process too.
I'll agree it's not easy, but any fight is hard if one feels mistreated.

 

[Developereo]

So wtf are you saying this is made for making a hell for muslims LOL

This law was enacted in response to the Muslim headscarf. As I have stated countless times, the French secularists didn't have a problem with Jewish men wearing the yarmulka in school for centuries. Why this sudden obsession with religious symbols? Only after Muslim schoolgirls started showing up with headscarf.

Again : if a woman wants to wear scarf she can go to private school

The point is they shouldn't have to go to private school because the law denies them a right accorded to other religions.

when i see the kids leaving the schools the public ones i didn't see croices around their neck

I have lived in France also and I saw plenty of French people with pendants or necklaces with a tiny cross, especially in the south.

I explained in the past message
so again let me say what was written in the wiki and is the law
it is not "discreet" but it is forbidden to use a religious sign that would be enough visible to promote a religion in the public school.
[...]
I could see once on tv even once that in a school people complained because they put a croice inside a room

The issue under debate is not large crosses, but small necklaces and pendants, so let me spell it out for you.

First of law, the language of the law is extremely important. The words are chosen very carefully.

If, as you claim, the intent of the law was to remove all religious symbols from schools, the law could simply have said so. It could have said "No religious symbols" -- it is clear, unambiguous and is not open to interpretation.

But the French law does not say that. It says instead "No ostensible religious symbols". Now any reasonable person will ask why the word ostensible was put in there. It creates confusion and allows room for interpretation.

And what is considered ostensible anyway? Most people would agree that a headscarf is ostensible, but a small pendant with a 2cm cross is not ostensible. How convenient, since the former is a traditional expression of Muslim religious identity, while the latter is one for Christianity.

Conclusion: the French law deliberately introduced a loophole to allow necklaces with small Christian crosses to be allowed in schools.