France in Talks with Malaysia for Rafales

[FaujHistorian]

we don't know what is all included in the deal for India and delays and more delays running the price up

if Malaysia buys them straight from France without ToT the other expenses would be supporting the Rafale and weapons the price should be cheaper than what India will pay

ToT is another name for kit assembly.

So many developing countries have been doing ToT since 1950s

And still they have to go back to a small group of airplane manufacturers when the time comes to update.

 

[Aepsilons]

I believe your argument carries a lot of weight even from Indian pov.

The thing is costly as heck.

For me, I believe that Pakistan can capitalize on the substantially affordable Chinese produced Chengdu J-10, which also has similar specs to the Saab JAS 39 Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon. In fact, at a cost of $30 million per unit, Pakistan can get 126 units of Chengdu J-10 fighters for $3.7 Billion (a fraction of what India is paying for those Rafales). And who knows, China can even sell for friendship price. Heck, perhaps even purchase 200 units of J-10s for $6-7 Billion. I'm sure Beijing would be more than happy to do that.

Ah, the benefits of being an ally of Beijing.

 

[C130]

For me, I believe that Pakistan can capitalize on the substantially affordable Chinese produced Chengdu J-10, which also has similar specs to the Saab JAS 39 Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon. In fact, at a cost of $30 million per unit, Pakistan can get 126 units of Chengdu J-10 fighters for $3.7 Billion (a fraction of what India is paying for those Rafales). And who knows, China can even sell for friendship price. Heck, perhaps even purchase 200 units of J-10s for $6-7 Billion. I'm sure Beijing would be more than happy to do that.

Ah, the benefits of being an ally of Beijing.

30 mil a pop seems too good to be true Chinese planes needs some love. I would love to seem them in actually combat

also rooting for the Super Hornet. It would be amazing if Malyasia was the first to pick the Advance Super Hornet

60 to 80mil a pop
AIM-120 C-7 and even AIM-120D
AIM-9X block II/III in the future
JDAM,Paveway, and small diameter bomb
SLAM-ER
weapons should cost significantly cheaper than the European counterpart

 

[GR!FF!N]

The most recently contracted unit costs for Low Rate Initial Production lot 7 :

• F-35A: $98 million
• F-35B: $104 million
• F-35C: $116 million

An F-35A purchased in 2018 and delivered in 2020 will be $85 million, which is the equivalent of $75 million in today’s dollars.

About: Fast Facts: Cost | F-35 Lightning II

read this one please....

cost of the 5th lot's F-35....

A single Air Force F-35A costs a whopping $148 million. One Marine Corps F-35B costs an unbelievable $251 million. A lone Navy F-35C costs a mind-boggling $337 million. Average the three models together, and a “generic” F-35 costs $178 million.

How Much Does an F-35 Actually Cost? — War Is Boring — Medium

and thats without the cost of the engine,what they've to buy separately.now the bouncer,its only the Flyaway cost,not the Weapons System Cost,which the US Govt has yet to publish.GAO slammed US GOvt for not publishing it.

GAO Draft Slams F-35 On ‘Unaffordable’ Costs: $8.8B Over Legacy Fighters « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

I'm not against F-35.but its the true picture of how much the Tier -1 weapons system actually costs.

 

[Aepsilons]

30 mil a pop seems too good to be true Chinese planes needs some love. I would love to seem them in actually combat

also rooting for the Super Hornet. It would be amazing if Malyasia was the first to pick the Advance Super Hornet

60 to 80mil a pop
AIM-120 C-7 and even AIM-120D
AIM-9X block II/III in the future
JDAM,Paveway, and small diameter bomb
SLAM-ER
weapons should cost significantly cheaper than the European counterpart

From a cost-benefits analysis, the Chinese new fighter, the Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter is a good choice. They perform within the same range as the Eurofighter:

J-10 vs Eurofighter

I would also note that the J-10 already has many variants. Its even noted that the J-10C Block can outperform and surpass American and other western fighters.

Lastly, the Chinese have come a long way since the 1980s and early 1990s. It is foolish and downright suicide to underestimate them now. Even Japan does not underestimate them.

 

[C130]

read this one please....

cost of the 5th lot's F-35....

A single Air Force F-35A costs a whopping $148 million. One Marine Corps F-35B costs an unbelievable $251 million. A lone Navy F-35C costs a mind-boggling $337 million. Average the three models together, and a “generic” F-35 costs $178 million.

How Much Does an F-35 Actually Cost? — War Is Boring — Medium

and thats without the cost of the engine,what they've to buy separately.now the bouncer,its only the Flyaway cost,not the Weapons System Cost,which the US Govt has yet to publish.GAO slammed US GOvt for not publishing it.

GAO Draft Slams F-35 On ‘Unaffordable’ Costs: $8.8B Over Legacy Fighters « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

I'm not against F-35.but its the true picture of how much the Tier -1 weapons system actually costs.

this is for the LRIP batches??
Lockheed eyes 2-4 percent cost reduction in next F-35 contract | Reuters
they are shaving like 2 to 4% off each batch and the F-35 engine is getting cheaper as well.
once full rat production is in full swing and the bugs are fixed price should drop significally.

now if we don't order a couple of thousand of them you'll be looking at mind boggling numbers like the F-22,B1, and B2 since we only made a 100+ each

I'd give it another 3 to 4 years to say what the truce price per plane is.

 

[SQ8]

From a cost-benefits analysis, the Chinese new fighter, the Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter is a good choice. They perform within the same range as the Eurofighter:

J-10 vs Eurofighter

I would also note that the J-10 already has many variants. Its even noted that the J-10C Block can outperform and surpass American and other western fighters.

Lastly, the Chinese have come a long way since the 1980s and early 1990s. It is foolish and downright suicide to underestimate them now. Even Japan does not underestimate them.

There are a lot of issue with studies like that. In addition aircraft costs are sometimes skewed over. Certain costs are "omitted" by certain manufacturers in their early pitches(something the Indians are finding out to their ire).
A good look at the swiss evaluation of fighters gives the idea of various costs that go into aircraft operation and ipso facto purchase decisions.

For e.g. there is a lot of hue and cry regarding the decision to build the JF-17 instead of purchasing the Gripen for Pakistan. However, all these critics ignore the huge cost and access benefits that come with the program.

A program closer to home for you that cost just as much as the rafale and did not give the desired yield(due to budget issues on the JASDFs part) is the F-2 program. The Aircraft is still in my view the ultimate F-16 derivative and a wonderful strike aircraft, but is not as cost effective yet as the F-4EJ-kai upgrade might have been in the view of some experts. It all comes down to the operating, manufacturing, logistics and training costs that follow(along with the number of units purchased).

For Malaysia , the decision rests not just on the price of the fighter, but its weapons and sensor capabilities, its costs regarding maintenance, flight hours. training costs.. time to train a new pilot on the type and so on. So while @C130 may wish to see the Rhino(Superhornet) in service with the RMAF.. it depends on how much commonality the airframe offers to the Malaysians and how much superiority capability in terms of sensors and weapons does it bring with it to offset its much derided lack of manoeuvrability vis-a-vis its competitors such as the Rafale or Eurofighter.

The J-10 is NOT in the same league as the eurofighter due to certain shortcomings with the electronics and payload capacity.
The J-10 cannot carry as much as the Eurofighter for now and does not hold the thrust to weight ratio of the eurofighter. It is quite manoeuvrable and may be tough for the eurofighter in a dogfight.. but would find itself lacking in other department.s

 

[SQ8]

I'd give it another 3 to 4 years to say what the truce price per plane is.

Its the same issue that plagued the F-22 program. People started hating the aircraft without realizing its full potential which eventually led to its sky high costs.

 

[C130]

Its the same issue that plagued the F-22 program. People started hating the aircraft without realizing its full potential which eventually led to its sky high costs.

death of the USSR made it an irrelevant IMO. F-15,F-16, and F-18 could do the same thing for cheaper.

 

[Aepsilons]

The J-10 is NOT in the same league as the eurofighter due to certain shortcomings with the electronics and payload capacity.
The J-10 cannot carry as much as the Eurofighter for now and does not hold the thrust to weight ratio of the eurofighter. It is quite manoeuvrable and may be tough for the eurofighter in a dogfight.. but would find itself lacking in other department.s

You're right about the payload capacity difference between the J-10 and the Eurofighter. In fact, for dedicated attack craft, I would commend the Pakistani Air Force's use of the F-16 (and I'm actually happy that the PAF is now upgraded its fleet of F-16s, thanks in part to TAI). But for defensive capability, I'd say that the J-10 pound per pound can hold its ground against any enemy attack craft. I also think that the J-10 Block Cs will prove to be effective.

 

[SQ8]

death of the USSR made it an irrelevant IMO. F-15,F-16, and F-18 could do the same thing for cheaper.

Not exactly.. the appearance of new threats only make it more relevant. The F-22 is capable of becoming a day-1 weapon system that needs no one to go in and strike targets whilst being able to survive the most dangerous of air and ground threats.

 

[Aepsilons]

death of the USSR made it an irrelevant IMO. F-15,F-16, and F-18 could do the same thing for cheaper.

If I may add, the United States prioritized the F-22 for dedicated mainland defense. Its primarily reserved for mainland defense or to be used in core US bases around the world. Heck, they (you guys!) even used a Congressional decision to bar the sale of F-22s to the JASDF !

 

[SQ8]

You're right about the payload capacity difference between the J-10 and the Eurofighter. In fact, for dedicated attack craft, I would commend the Pakistani Air Force's use of the F-16 (and I'm actually happy that the PAF is now upgraded its fleet of F-16s, thanks in part to TAI). But for defensive capability, I'd say that the J-10 pound per pound can hold its ground against any enemy attack craft. I also think that the J-10 Block Cs will prove to be effective.

For starters, we have no idea on what the Block-C(if there ever will be one) will look like. Second whatever capabilities in air defence the J-10 brings the JF-17 is easily able to provide. What the PAF needs is a strong deep strike aircraft which the F-16 block-52 covers but there are too few of them. The J-10B did have that potential but with the Chinese coming up with a 5th generation offering soon(and corresponding to the PAF's budget and timeframe) the need for it quickly diminished.
Most likely, the next new platform the PAF inducts will not be very soon.. and when it will be it will be a low observable platform.

 

[SQ8]

If I may add, the United States prioritized the F-22 for dedicated mainland defense. Its primarily reserved for mainland defense or to be used in core US bases around the world. Heck, they (you guys!) even used a Congressional decision to bar the sale of F-22s to the JASDF !

The decision was made in light of the sophistication of the F-22. It is STILL the best air dominance aircraft in the air flying or coming in the near future out there. The F-22 still has room the size of the entire electronics fit on the Gripen available for it to be upgraded for the future.

 

[he-man]

Not exactly.. the appearance of new threats only make it more relevant. The F-22 is capable of becoming a day-1 weapon system that needs no one to go in and strike targets whilst being able to survive the most dangerous of air and ground threats.

debatable................apart from best stealth most of the electronics are outdated.Needs serious modernization