France and Germany plan' more active' EU defence

[Mamluk]

It will be a Little India, multiple countries, multiple cultures united as one.

That will never happen. Mark my words.

They will never turn into ONE country. Same goes for ME.

Caucasian people in general are more intelligent, greedy and testosterone-charged than tropical or equatorial people.

They will never get together to form Utopias.

Comparing Germany to Karnataka is absurd. People of states like Karnataka or Kerala would form unions with just about anyone. Same can't be said about the racially conscious and culturally rich nations.

 

[MarkusS]

will never happen. I'm italian. I respect my german and french and spanish brothers. I work together with them. Have parties with them but will never move in one house.

we have powerful identities.

 

[vostok]

I do not think that common EU defence necessarily implies single country.

 

[randomradio]

I do not think that common EU defence necessarily implies single country.

It will still require a common decision making body. And that's where it will start. Most economic, foreign policy and defence decisions will be taken up by this single decision making body. The EU already makes common decisions in economics. Common defence will in effect make it one country.

And all of this doesn't have to happen at once.

 

[vostok]

It will still require a common decision making body. And that's where it will start. Most economic, foreign policy and defence decisions will be taken up by this single decision making body. The EU already makes common decisions in economics. Common defence will in effect make it one country.

And all of this doesn't have to happen at once.

It's just a logical movement from pro-American NATO to pro-European military alliance. Something like the All-European Entente.

 

[randomradio]

It's just a logical movement from pro-American NATO to pro-European military alliance. Something like the All-European Entente.

That's really what France and Germany have been hoping for. Especially after the Iraq War. This new system will undermine NATO.

Even after the Paris attack, the French invoked the EU mutual defence clause, not NATO. There's a lot of trust deficit between France/Germany and the US when it comes to military interventions.

 

[Penguin]

That's really what France and Germany have been hoping for. Especially after the Iraq War. This new system will undermine NATO.

Even after the Paris attack, the French invoked the EU mutual defence clause, not NATO. There's a lot of trust deficit between France/Germany and the US when it comes to military interventions.

US and Canada aside in this pick, but on the whole, only 7 NATO members are not EU members.

 

[randomradio]

US and Canada aside in this pick, but on the whole, only 7 NATO members are not EU members.

Yeah, but NATO still works under the US. The French and Germans want to get out of that trap by undermining the reliance on America for security.

Apart from the obvious political and foreign policy benefits, France will gain the whole of Europe as a market for their military tech. Right now it is essentially an American market.

 

[Vergennes]

Apart from the obvious political and foreign policy benefits, France will gain the whole of Europe as a market for their military tech. Right now it is essentially an American market.

One must be really optimistic to think so. We have the poles and the Caracal helicopters as an exemple.

@Taygibay

 

[Taygibay]

Yup mec! The USA used to inundate Europe of nations with its equipment
but somehow, this will stop after the regroupment of these nations ends?
LOL

And taking the OP premise of Fr & De getting closer on EuroDef due to Brexit
is actually quite comical. Less partners equals more cohesion and strength?
WOW!

The logical follow-through is that if everyone leaves ...

... the common defense will be stronger than ever?​

That could well work for France but how about Latvia?





Tssssk, Tay.​

 

[Penguin]

Yeah, but NATO still works under the US. The French and Germans want to get out of that trap by undermining the reliance on America for security.

Why would they? It would have them (at least Germany but also France) incur major costs in terms of increased defence expenditures. And that pretty much applies to most European countries, with the exception of Greece and UK (the latter 'in Brexit')

Apart from the obvious political and foreign policy benefits, France will gain the whole of Europe as a market for their military tech. Right now it is essentially an American market.

This is BS.

 

[mike2000 is back]

Apart from the obvious political and foreign policy benefits, France will gain the whole of Europe as a market for their military tech. Right now it is essentially an American market.

??? What are you on about? Don't talk about things you have little knowledge about.

Apart from the obvious political and foreign policy benefits, France will gain the whole of Europe as a market for their military tech. Right now it is essentially an American market.

??? What are you on about? Don't talk about things you have little knowledge about.

 

[mike2000 is back]

A change of command at the EUTM Mali, a joint military partnership between the EU and Mali. Photo: Eurocorps

France and Germany are preparing joint proposals for a "more active and more useful" European defence policy, the French defence ministry told AFP on Friday.

The document, by French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and his German counterpart Ursula von der Leyen, will serve as a "basis for considering a relaunch of European defence", the ministry said and comes ahead of a European Union summit to discuss plans to boost the bloc's security and defence

mechanisms.

The objective is to make European defence "more active and more useful without substituting it for national defence bodies which remain, by definition, the key to the security of EU member states," a member of Le
Drian's entourage said.

"What we are looking for is to trigger EU operations more easily," he added, without revealing details of the plans. He did say, however, that these were "concrete" proposals and not just "grand ideas".

The Franco-German document proposes the establishment of a European defence headquarters, a common satellite surveillance system and the sharing of logistics and military medical resources, according to the Saturday edition of the German daily Sueddeutsche Zeitung

There would be a tighter circle of EU members for some defence projects where it proves impossible to gain agreement from all, the paper added, citing the document.

There is also a suggestion for better use of Eurocorps, an intergovernmental military body that has France and Germany at its centre. Belgium, Spain and Luxembourg are members of the Strasbourg-based Eurocorps, set up for rapid deployment to hotspots.

The EU has already been involved in the training of foreign armies, as part of conflict resolution, and might become involved in financing their equipment.

The bloc could also become engaged in research and development, to strengthen the European defence industry. The discussions are in part due to the June vote by Britain to leave the EU.

According to von der Leyen, London had long "paralysed" European efforts to have a more closely integrated security policy.

French President Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel initiated the joint security initiative on the margins of a NATO summit in July and are set to present the resulting ideas for discussion at the EU summit in Bratislava next week.

The informal meeting is expected to provide a new impetus for the EU in several areas, including youth and investments, as the bloc seeks to forge its future without Britain. However British Prime Minister Theresa May reaffirmed on Thursday that she would not launch Brexit talks this year.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20160910/france-and-germany-plan-more-active-eu-defence

It's a welcome idea for both countries. The main issue with this plan is that E.U countries(bar few small weak countries like Poland, Greece etc)don't take defence/military spending Seriously,much less forward deployment/interventions when necessary. So I don't have much hope for this so called E.U Army. Except if France will be ready to shoulder all the responsibilities that this entails. I doubt France can , since she will have to spend tremendously to be able to shoulder all these defence commitments . Judging by E.U countries feeling of complacency when it comes to defence, Good luck with this project.
All I know is that none of the major countries will commit fully in increasing substantially their defence budgets or even more so their defence commitments both locally or intervening overseas when needed.
If anyone believes countries like Italy, Spain etc will do this, then they need a reality check. lol E.U countries lack the will to invest more on defence and will rather focus on other social program etc as the public itself is in no mood for military intervention
Don't get me wrong though, Europe is an economic and industrial powerhouse, as just an average European power like Italy has a bigger economic output/GDP than Russia. However, due to the fact that Europe has been at peace for a long time since WWII many European countries have put defence/military spending on the back burner bar big powers like U.K and France maybe due to the global interests and colonial empire building influence we have. The rest of European countries who are more forthcoming in their defence commitments are either too small to make a huge difference or they do so due to threats they face(read Poland/Baltic countries vis a vis Russia or Greece visa vis Turkey).
So it's a rather troubling /intriguing situation .

Let's see how this works out though, since many E.U countries can't even meet their NATO commitments much less E. U defence. Lol.

 

[randomradio]

One must be really optimistic to think so. We have the poles and the Caracal helicopters as an exemple.

This is BS.

??? What are you on about? Don't talk about things you have little knowledge about.

None of these smaller EU countries are going to be able to keep up in 5-10 years on their own with military advances, I'm particularly talking about the aerospace industry. All the countries are going to have to start pooling in resources for R&D. And I'm talking about big weapons systems, not just helicopters and modified tanks.

R&D will end up in the hands of larger states, particularly Germany and France, to a certain extent Italy and Spain. Especially with the UK leaving, so most decision making will be done in France and Germany when it comes to security.

That means the countries will stop investing in projects like the F-35 and invest that money in Europe itself. So much money lost to the US even though Europe has the technology to surpass the F-35.

Take the FCAS as an example. There will be more buyers for this under a united European defence agreement than relying on imports from America.

Why would they? It would have them (at least Germany but also France) incur major costs in terms of increased defence expenditures. And that pretty much applies to most European countries, with the exception of Greece and UK (the latter 'in Brexit')

The % is irrelevant. Just the combined national revenues of France, Germany, Spain and Italy is more than the revenues of the US and China.

France - $1.3T
Germany - $1.1T
Italy - $1T
Spain - $0.5T
Total = $3.9T

China - $2.1T

US - $3T

The combined revenues of the EU - UK is way more than the US and China combined. It's 45% of the EU GDP. That's about $6T without the UK.

With a single decision making body for the EU, the military budget will easily rival that of the US or China with a lower percentage to GDP spent on defence.

You guys are seriously underestimating the combined EU resources that can be deployed by the current govts.

 

[mike2000 is back]

None of these smaller EU countries are going to be able to keep up in 5-10 years on their own with military advances, I'm particularly talking about the aerospace industry. All the countries are going to have to start pooling in resources for R&D. And I'm talking about big weapons systems, not just helicopters and modified tanks.

R&D will end up in the hands of larger states, particularly Germany and France, to a certain extent Italy and Spain. Especially with the UK leaving, so most decision making will be done in France and Germany when it comes to security.

That means the countries will stop investing in projects like the F-35 and invest that money in Europe itself. So much money lost to the US even though Europe has the technology to surpass the F-35.

Take the FCAS as an example. There will be more buyers for this under a united European defence agreement than relying on imports from America.



The % is irrelevant. Just the combined national revenues of France, Germany, Spain and Italy is more than the revenues of the US and China.

France - $1.3T
Germany - $1.1T
Italy - $1T
Spain - $0.5T
Total = $3.9T

China - $2.1T

US - $3T

The combined revenues of the EU - UK is way more than the US and China combined. It's 45% of the EU GDP. That's about $6T without the UK.

With a single decision making body for the EU, the military budget will easily rival that of the US or China with a lower percentage to GDP spent on defence.

You guys are seriously underestimating the combined EU resources that can be deployed by the current govts.

You are correct, which is what I mentioned earlier about Europe being an economic/industrial superpower which almost no single country can match. However, what E.U countries lack since the end of WWII is the WILL to take defence commitments/military spending seriously. Call it COMPLACENCY.