France and Germany plan' more active' EU defence

[Norge Stronk]

Me, and Juncker and the leaders of the EU.

https://defence.pk/threads/france-and-germany-plan-more-active-eu-defence.448683/page-5#post-8697281

EU defense... as in a refinement of the Common Security and Defense Policy, which already exists in the form of the EU's 18 battlegroup, which include non-EU members like Norway and exclude EU members like Denmark, who opted out.

Keep in mind this already exists. The framework exists, the contributions exist, the cooperation exists, and it's been a total flop with nations providing a paltry force and with structural deficiencies present at every level.

As of December 2014, the Nordic Battlegroup consisted of around 2,500 officers and soldiers:

• Sweden: 1900
• Finland: 60
• Ireland: 170
• Estonia: 50
• Latvia: 150
• Lithuania: 50
• Norway: 50

That article says nothing about the formation of a single European state, which we'd opt out of anyway. We had enough of Germany telling us what to do for one life time, thank you.

 

[waz]

Canada is ours. Hands off @waz !!

Don't make me rally the fleet

Fearsome
But Norway is a our dear friend. A few vikings landing here and there won't trouble our Canadian bros.

 

[randomradio]

EU defense... as in a refinement of the Common Security and Defense Policy, which already exists in the form of the EU's 18 battlegroup, which include non-EU members like Norway and exclude EU members like Denmark, who opted out.

Keep in mind this already exists. The framework exists, the contributions exist, the cooperation exists, and it's been a total flop with nations providing a paltry force and with structural deficiencies present at every level.

As of December 2014, the Nordic Battlegroup consisted of around 2,500 officers and soldiers:

• Sweden: 1900
• Finland: 60
• Ireland: 170
• Estonia: 50
• Latvia: 150
• Lithuania: 50
• Norway: 50

That article says nothing about the formation of a single European state, which we'd opt out of anyway. We had enough of Germany telling us what to do for one life time, thank you.

I know about all this. The plan is to make a European Superstate anyway. You can say discussions are on.

https://sputniknews.com/europe/20160628/1042075609/poland-france-germany-eu-superstate.html

Polish Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski has said Warsaw rejects France and Germany's plans for a European superstate, which have emerged this week following the UK's decision to leave the European Union.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/711481/European-Union-plan-United-state-of-Europe

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum-German-French-European-superstate-Brexit

The Common Defence plan is to convert the EU's many national forces into a single unit. Probably enough to rival the US or China.

 

[Vergennes]

Dream on!

I was like ;

Spoiler

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@waz @Norge Stronk We take Québec and you do whatever you want with the rest.

 

[randomradio]

I was like ;

Spoiler

Brussels will control the UNSC seat and nuclear weapons after everything is ready. In fact France is pushing for this to happen.

Under the radical proposals EU countries will lose the right to have their own army, criminal law, taxation system or central bank, with all those powers being transferred to Brussels.

 

[Norge Stronk]

I know about all this. The plan is to make a European Superstate anyway. You can say discussions are on.

Polish Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski has said Warsaw rejects France and Germany's plans for a European superstate, which have emerged this week following the UK's decision to leave the European Union.

Poland rejects it... welcome to European politics Comrade. We build walls, not bridges with our neighbors here.

If France and Germany want to buddy up, great. But the rest of Europe tried that and didn't like it. I'm sure Greece is eager to have Germany ride their *ss all over again in a new single state initiative, right?

The Europeans here - you know, people that actually live in Europe and experience its politics, economics and trifles - @Vergennes @waz @mike2000 is back @Taygibay and myself are calling this a joke, that should tell you everything you need to know about how enthusiastically received this is in Europe.

And frankly we'd opt out anyway.

@waz @Norge Stronk We take Québec and you do whatever you want with the rest.

While your liberating Québec, think your Navy could deal with a minor Danish irritant for us?

 

[waz]

-
@waz @Norge Stronk We take Québec and you do whatever you want with the rest.

Hahaha, the place is 25% English speaking But anyway, it's great Canada has links to both countries, more to us as her royal highness is sovereign, and 80% of the population are our people.

 

[randomradio]

Polish Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski has said Warsaw rejects France and Germany's plans for a European superstate, which have emerged this week following the UK's decision to leave the European Union.

Poland rejects it... welcome to European politics Comrade. We build walls, not bridges with our neighbors here.

They have only rejected some immigration quotas. If you are setting up a superstate you have to allow unlimited immigration, that's natural.

India's internal migration is over 400 million.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...of-Indias-population/articleshow/24313033.cms

Internal migrants in India are expected to touch 400 million in the 2011 census, over half the global figure of 740 million and almost twice as many as China's estimated 221 million.

Your immigration troubles are trifling. It won't stop the formation of a superstate.

If France and Germany want to buddy up, great. But the rest of Europe tried that and didn't like it. I'm sure Greece is eager to have Germany ride their *ss all over again in a new single state initiative, right?

Trifling matter. We have such issues in India, like the passage of a new taxation regime.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/busin...ons-jaitley/story-V7FuuOIFc26JQtVen25CPK.html

Brussels will have to be fair to everybody. What works in India should work in Europe.

The Europeans here - you know, people that actually live in Europe and experience its politics, economics and trifles - @Vergennes @waz @mike2000 is back @Taygibay and myself are calling this a joke, that should tell you everything you need to know about how enthusiastically received this is in Europe.

And frankly we'd opt out anyway.

Yes, but all the people you named are regular citizens who have regular problems like regular people, even if some of them are mil professionals. Why don't you ask someone like Picdelamirand-oil or any other person you might know who has top level clearance in defence matters or is directly involved in the govt at a very high level.

These decisions are not being made by regular citizens. Why else are these closed door discussions? The only reason we know about the Franco-German 'Ultimatum' is because the Polish authorities leaked it.

If you want to go back to an era of growth, you will have to create a new constitution, more robust and more advanced than India's, as a single country. Apart from helping the EU internally, the superstate is required to ensure there are little to no chances of a new cold war let alone a world war.

 

[randomradio]

So you're looking for my views then?

Sure, if you are among the top few decision makers in your country.

Promises, promises, promises... if I wanted such rhetoric I'd vote for Trump.

Who knows? Maybe after the EU superstate is formed, they may decide to combine most of NA and the EU into one country. Then you can vote for Trump.

 

[Taygibay]

These decisions are not being made by regular citizens.

But surprise, sometimes they are :
The Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe was adopted by the European Council on 18 June 2004, and signed in Rome later that year in the presence of the EP President, Josep Borrell Fontelles. Approved by the EP (Méndez de Vigo-Leinen report), the Treaty was then rejected by France (29 May 2005) and the Netherlands (1 June 2005) in their national referenda.

Following the rejection of the Constitutional Treaty Member States began work on the Lisbon Treaty.

• Signed in: Rome (Italy) 29 October 2004

Entry into force: Not ratified by all 27 Member States
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/20150201PVL00022/The-EP-and-the-treaties

Of course, the politicians that you seem to like so much circumvented the "difficulty"
but still, De Gaulle left that way, Brexit is a live example and Québec said No twice.

Don't underestimate the power of the people too much, guv'nor!



And our here too, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

But surprise, sometimes they are :
The Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe was adopted by the European Council on 18 June 2004, and signed in Rome later that year in the presence of the EP President, Josep Borrell Fontelles. Approved by the EP (Méndez de Vigo-Leinen report), the Treaty was then rejected by France (29 May 2005) and the Netherlands (1 June 2005) in their national referenda.

Following the rejection of the Constitutional Treaty Member States began work on the Lisbon Treaty.

• Signed in: Rome (Italy) 29 October 2004

Entry into force: Not ratified by all 27 Member States
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/20150201PVL00022/The-EP-and-the-treaties

Of course, the politicians that you seem to like so much circumvented the "difficulty"
but still, De Gaulle left that way, Brexit is a live example and Québec said No twice.

Don't underestimate the power of the people too much, guv'nor!



And our here too, Tay.

Some aspects won't be left to the power of the people. Particularly the Common Defence Plan.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...e-European-Union-migrant-crisis-terror-attack

They will just say convenient things to bring people on board. Like this:
ITALY has reinforced calls for an European Union (EU) Army to protect the bloc from terror attacks and to tackle the flow of illegal immigrants.

You and I know we don't need Common Defence to tackle immigration or terror attacks. But what do the people know, they are mostly stupid when it comes to these things.

Pretty interesting quote from the article-
“Under this approach, a group of like-minded countries would begin sharing military capabilities and resources on the basis of an ad hoc agreement.

“The initiative would then be opened to all interested member states, under procedures similar to those adopted in the original Schengen Agreement.”

Not much people power can do in this case, it is an executive decision for most of the nations. If Common Defence starts off with France, Germany, Italy and Spain joining their defence budgets into one unit, all other countries will join it for the obvious benefits.

The leadership doesn't have to drop the bomb on the people. It has to be gradual. Once Brussels is making economic and military decision for all of Europe, how long before they start implementing policies for foreign policy and eventually push for a new constitution. It's obvious where Europe is headed after Brexit.