Foxbat over Pakistan the facts & fiction

[MastanKhan]

I'm not here to convince any one, however for the record there are strong reporting to the effect.

Hi Windy,

Let them argue---it is one of the technique they use to make you spill out our guts---proof---link---your source---etc etc etc---.

I know what you have written is correct---. You don't need to give any clarifications---.

It is what it is and let them come with with their versions and stories---.

yeah yeah in your dream even Soviets hadn't intercepted SR-71 flight over their land wake up from your dream sir what a joke good one

Hi,

Only if it was as simple an answer as that---. Remember that you are dealing with the russians---unless you have dealt and lived with the russians---you would never know what they were thinking or what they were doing.

A simple russian strategy would be---why shoot it down---why expose our missile system to them and its capabilities---that is what they want to know---or why expose the capabilities of our radars---like---how we tracked the sr71 and took it down---. Or how about dealing with a predictable---the sr71 rather than an unpredictable---a newer and a different aircraft---you know the yanks---they are full of surprises when fingered---.

This is war---these are war games---that one adversary plays against the other---. Like the truth about nucs in cuba---.

Only if life was so simple and in black and white answers.

 

[DJ_Viper]

@Windjammer

Hi dear,let me shed some light on this whole foxbat episode. Mig25 were never meant to engage other aircraft in dogfight. The manuvrebility of foxbat is just pathetic.But as an interceptor,it could do its job pretty well -for instance superior climb rate and acceleration.Now let's imagine a hypothetical situation shall we?
First Let's consider
1)head on engagement-
Let's imagine a foxbat is about to enter the Pakistani airspace,f16 are scrambled as foxbat enters Pakistani airspace,considering the climb rate of viper with full load of AIM9L and fuel,it'll roughly take 1.5-1.8minutes to get to its flight ceiling of 60000fts. By that time foxbat would have covered 84-99kms flying at 80000ft and 2.8M. Now the closure rate between the jets and between missile and foxbat would be 4.3 and 5.5M respectively. Obviously in such a favourable scenario missile would have a higher probability of intercept but wait,missile would have to first spend energy to reach to the altitude of 80000ft,which roughly translates to 5.1 million joules(considering the mass of side winder to be 85kgs and when fired from 60000ft). Now this 5.1 million joules should be supplied from the main motor and hence its effective range would be decreased,matters will become worse if foxbat is manuvering because inherently nearly all missiles employ proportional guidance or its derivatives which means missile would have to position itself such that the line of sight angle remains constant- this means every time foxbat makes a manuvre,the missile will have to adjust itself to drive the line of sight angle to a constant. I'm not saying it'll be impossible for sidewinder to intercept ,it'll b just a bit difficult.
Of course things will change dramatically if foxbat a was flying slower or God forbid at a lower altitude.But since Indian foxbats were flying in clean configuration with just the camera ,I think there is no harm in assuming that they could fly at 80000ft and 2.8M.after all the recce versions could indeed fly that way.

2)tail chase-
Now let's imagine foxbat pilot chickened out and initiated a roll and turned to India.in this case,although the engine is facing the missile seeker but the closure rate is -0.1M(kindly note I'm considering 2.7M for missile and 2.8M for foxbat). Which means missile is slower than the foxbat.No matter what happens,in this case missile will never be able to make to foxbat and foxbat survives to fly another day. To intercept foxbat we'd need closure rate in favour of missile which means Mach number greater than 2.8.Also note that minor Mach advantage in favour of missile wouldn't really help here because we have to account for energy bleeding of missile thanks to proportional guidance scheme. Every time foxbat makes a manuvre,missile would have to respond in order to drive the line of slight angle constant.kindly note that in proportional guidance the lateral acceleration of missile is slaved to the rate of change of line of sight angle

WOW!! Reading about the Foxbat and writing fiction and knowing about the Foxbat and then writing per expertise are two different things, I hope you get that. You should talk to the fine USAF pilots who took out a few Foxbats in Iraq and other places. Then you'll find out how Foxbat really flies at Mach 2.4 at 70k feet.

At 65+ feet, maneuvering gets very difficult due to the gravity and air-density, etc. If you can install a bigger engine into the F-16 and take it up there, it's maneuverability would become less than 50% of what it really is below 55K feet. At the height of 70k or more, you can't do "maneuvers" and still maintain a 2.5 mach speed. You make one turn and you bleed so much energy that it takes you a couple of minutes to recoup and due to gravity and drag, you become a sitting duck.

A Foxbat, a U-2 or a SR-71, are only at their peak performance if they cut through the air like a needle, meaning straight flight. No maneuvers at that altitude. An F-16 if fires a couple of AIM's, and the Foxbat pilot does a roll or two, or some small maneuver, his speed will drastically reduce and the vector will change (all Physics here, every motion has an equal and opposite reaction). So a vector change will bring down the original vector flight pattern from a speed, gravity and drag's standpoint as the third law of motion will kick in.

That gives both, the F-16 and the AIM more time to now get closer to the Foxbat. It would take a minute to two for the Foxbat to recover and become a vector again. But a Mach 2.5-3 missile having a much smaller body will get closer to the Foxbat in the meantime, forcing the jet to do more maneuvers and thus a second missile would take advantage of that slower speed and bleeding energy and would more than likely take him out. Hope this helps.

then why SR-71 wasn't intercepted by Soviets, explain me?

I just explained this, hopefully this answer will become a part of the previous post so you can read it. The reason as to why no SR's were intercepted was because the US had provided a strict vector based flight pattern for the SR's. They weren't allowed to engage or maneuver. Their goal was to penetrate any AD and fly like a needle through any airspace. As long as this jet would fly as a Vector, it would be extremely hard (if not impossible with tech from back then) to intercept it.


Before anyone can get to them, there would be support waiting in the shape of F-14's, F-15's and in earlier times, F-4's.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Your history is extremely vague. The US stopped the U-2 and SR-71 fights due to a Russian threat of direct confrontation back in the Cold way. Which could've went nuke. But, they then started to use Pakistani air-bases in the North West to conduct those flights and used a few U-2's in that time.

USAF did not stop the flights, they stopped short cutting over Sweden.
They were not in significant violation in the first place.

As You can see from the second picture, it is really narrow between Öland and Gotland,
and careless flying would bring the aircraft over Swedish waters.
In this case however the violation is on the top of the map, when the nose is just turning south.

As can be seen from the timing, the Swedish radar operators gets an advance warning about 20 minutes before intercept, when they detect the incoming SR-71.
They also know where it will be 20 minutes later based on previous flights.
The Soviets only take off at 9:03, when the SR-71 has begun to turn away,
and when they reach the border close to the SR-71 flight path it is already long gone.

The Skyflash is a Mach 4+, but in a head on attack success can always be debated.

 

[amardeep mishra]

At 65+ feet, maneuvering gets very difficult due to the gravity and air-density, etc. If you can install a bigger engine into the F-16 and take it up there, it's maneuverability would become less than 50% of what it really is below 55K feet. At the height of 70k or more, you can't do "maneuvers" and still maintain a 2.5 mach speed. You make one turn and you bleed so much energy that it takes you a couple of minutes to recoup and due to gravity and drag, you become a sitting duck.

Hi dear @DJ_Viper
I don't think I ever denied that? Of course it is difficult to manuvre at 80000ft. But I was talking about manuvering in longitudinal plane- of course this way one wouldn't be flying at max rated speed as one would do in a level trim flight but still it'll help in bleeding the energy of missile.even if one preclude the possibility of manuvres as you've come to believe it,the side winder would still have to spend some 5.1 million joules to climb to 80000ft. Considering old brick foxbat was flying level trim flight at its top rated speed and highest possible altitutd and by level trim I mean flight path angle to be 0.
More importantly I clearly said its not impossible to intercept foxbat in head on engagement,however it's just a bit difficult. While in tail chase I don't think side winder has a chance,IF(please don't overlook th the IF) foxbat is flying at its top speed and altitude

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

There has been more than one instance where we had the Mig-25s on track and with DLZs satisfied for the kill. Unlike the Undies, we don't have anything to prove in the air. The Foxbat missions were mostly for morale building of the IAF. We don't have things lying outside to be pictured. The F16 is more than capable to interdict the Foxbat. However, if you want to stick with google has to say, then believe what you like.

You can CONTINUE being happy with the Canberra shooting

But for God Sake ; There is a difference between MIG 25 and a Canberra

You cannot be so delusional

Why dont you post the source so we can know which EXPERT has written it

Yes, the Canebbra is a much better a/c. The foxbat is a pale of rusty bolts.

 

[Jf Thunder]

You can CONTINUE being happy with the Canberra shooting

But for God Sake ; There is a difference between MIG 25 and a Canberra

You cannot be so delusional

Why dont you post the source so we can know which EXPERT has written it

and there is a hell of a difference between an F 86 and an F 16
geddit?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Cortales are like paper-weights. They can scare papers that they are heavy, but when you put them on, all papers go like, crap, I was scared for no reason . Cortales are just like that. They scare the incoming aircraft of a "lock" but if you do two roles to break it, the incoming missile will pass you by like a mile and won't come back




I didn't realize we were all 2nd grade students. This looks weird reading on a topic created for serious discussions like the F-16's vs. the Foxbats!

Crotale is an effective SHORAD CLOS weapon till today. I don't know what you are on about.

 

[Moon]

Can you tell me which type of SAM Pakistan had in its arsenal?? And what was the service ceiling and Range of those SAMs..?


did Pakistan have F14s too??? That's a News to me..


This thread is about Mig25 over paksitani Airspace.. Canberra story we may bring in for some other time.. If the story is not your creation then show us a Credible source from where you got this.. Using languages such as (Butt Hurt, A$$) doesn't quite fit your profile.. If you have proper rebuts, you may provide it for a civilian discussion, else, you may pls stay calm for goodness sake..
Now in my previous post I've asked you to quote details on your SAM back in 1997.. If you care to give that, then we may continue this discussion further..


First of all lets clear some facts.. F14s did not shoot down any Iraqi Mig25 during Iran Iraq war as per SIPRI records.. Even as per Iran records, the Iranians claimed to have shot down one Mig25 but the service ceiling was not claimed as 70,000 Ft. it was a sneak attack which happened when the pilot returned to his base and the f14 had a gun kill on the Mig25 and the service ceiling of this encounter was around 35,000 feet as per Iranian record.. Where in the hell did you get those fancy numbers??
And secondly coming to the point, an aircraft which is certified to fly at 50,000 Ft as service ceiling may fly one or two thousand more, but even then at the Risk of compressor stall.. But as per your Pakistani Fanboys, your fighters can fly almost twice the service ceiling certified by the Manufacturer.. May be in your Pakistani stories it can happen, but not in reality..
And one more, even if the F16's have managed to cruise on to the Mig25, the distance between mig25 and f16 were around 75kms, and PAF had nothing in its inventory to counter that, on a tail chase mode with a far powerful aircraft in terms of speed, than an f16.. Now get that into your head..


By the time your F16s scrambled it must have been few minutes untill they kick in thier afterburners and get to that altitude of 50,000 feet and do you know how much distance a Mig25 flying at close to mach 2 can cross over inside in that few minutes..??? If you know, then you wont stay in this thread for discussions..


I also asked the same question, but he didn't rebut.. I know, he will be all flaming when he has something to say, but when we counter him with facts, he will be gone.. @OrionHunter @Windjammer

An F-16 from cold can scramble in less than 5 minutes.
Btw, F-16s fly close to Mach 2 too, so I see no logic in your question.

 

[Tipu7]

did Pakistan have F14s too??? That's a News to me..

I mentioned the incident to point out that fact that Mig25 has been shot down before in war. Despite of its huge service ceiling it is not a unbeatable aircraft. It can be caught and can be shot down even by aircraft which cannot match its altitude.

First of all lets clear some facts.. F14s did not shoot down any Iraqi Mig25 during Iran Iraq war as per SIPRI records.. Even as per Iran records, the Iranians claimed to have shot down one Mig25 but the service ceiling was not claimed as 70,000 Ft. it was a sneak attack which happened when the pilot returned to his base and the f14 had a gun kill on the Mig25 and the service ceiling of this encounter was around 35,000 feet as per Iranian record.. Where in the hell did you get those fancy numbers??

Its You who need to correct facts,

''1 December, 1982– Iraqi MiG-25’s developed “Anti-F-14” tactics (later used as “Anti-F-15” tactics against the Americans). These tactics and flying at 70,000 feet at Mach 3 stymied Iranian efforts to shoot them down. That is until Major Shahram Rostami (Major Mohammad Rafiee, REO) fired an AIM-54 at a Mig-25 at 70,000 feet and Mach 2.3. Engaging at 61 miles Rostami accelerated to Mach 1.5 and climbed to 45,000 feet. At a range of 34 miles he fired. It was just inside the radar envelope and as the time to impact counted down to zero the AWG-9 HIT symbol came on. AWACS confirmed the hit as the Foxbat plummeted into the sea''

Here for more details, a record of all Iraqi air crafts lost by end of 2014.
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/country-by-country/Iraq.htm

And secondly coming to the point, an aircraft which is certified to fly at 50,000 Ft as service ceiling may fly one or two thousand more, but even then at the Risk of compressor stall.. But as per your Pakistani Fanboys, your fighters can fly almost twice the service ceiling certified by the Manufacturer.. May be in your Pakistani stories it can happen, but not in reality..
And one more, even if the F16's have managed to cruise on to the Mig25, the distance between mig25 and f16 were around 75kms, and PAF had nothing in its inventory to counter that, on a tail chase mode with a far powerful aircraft in terms of speed, than an f16.. Now get that into your head..

Your major claims failed, so this part carry no worth

Here a feel good video

 

[Moon]

F-15 was built specifically to counter the MiG-25

F-14 had already done the job.

 

[banvanaxl]

The OP @Windjammer has neither given not a shred of proof nor linked any citation to the bull crap he has posted at beginning of this thread. He has chosen to conveniently ignore all proofs and counters debunking his theory and resorted to sorry rhetoric instead of validated facts.

Moreover he did not bother to correct himself or had the decency to request for thread deletion when pointed out that an Pakistani EX foreign minister and debunked and refuted whatever half arsed snake oil he was trying to sell on this thread.

I understand the OP belongs to a privileged section of PDF, but I would humbly ask the mods and staff members, @waz, @Oscar @Icarus, if an Indian opened a similar conspiracy theory thread (for example a thread which blames the Ayodha incident in Pakistani mischief makers or some such), would you allow it to run for so long unimpeded without intervention ??

Would the OP have the decency to reply to this https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-2#post-8509492 ??

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

As per border violations, there are many places on the border where indians fly straight and level and cause a border violation for 6 seconds. Even for that, there is a scramble.

The OP @Windjammer has neither given not a shred of proof nor linked any citation to the bull crap he has posted at beginning of this thread. He has chosen to conveniently ignore all proofs and counters debunking his theory and resorted to sorry rhetoric instead of validated facts.

Moreover he did not bother to correct himself or had the decency to request for thread deletion when pointed out that an Pakistani EX foreign minister and debunked and refuted whatever half arsed theory of claim he was trying to sell on this thread.

I understand the OP belongs to a privileged section of PDF, but I would humbly ask the mods and staff members, @waz, @Oscar @Icarus, if an Indian opened a similar conspiracy theory thread (for example a thread which blames the Ayodha incident in Pakistani mischief makers or some such), would you allow it to run for so long unimpeded without intervention ??

Would the OP have the decency to reply to this https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-2#post-8509492 ??

My boy, Windy is saying the Foxbat returned after a head on engagement radar lock. This has happened at least 6 times that i personally know of. Do you think the real operational details come out in the media?

 

[Allen Iverson]

An F-16 from cold can scramble in less than 5 minutes.
Btw, F-16s fly close to Mach 2 too, so I see no logic in your question.

The moment your Radars track an incoming Flying object, they'll issue alert to the Nearest ATC(If the AF Base Radars don't pick it up first).. The moment the Alert is issued, the fighters will be kept on red alert with Pilots ready to scramble, sitting in the cockpit (Assuming all the SOP checks are made before).. From that point it has to taxi out to the runway, and it has to kick in its afterburners and get to an altitude where it can atleast spot the aggressor in its radar.. For all this five minutes is the best of the best time any professional ariforce can achieve..
A foxbat flying at 1 to1.5 Mach (Assuming safe speed on a Recce mission) will enter into the Pakistani border and within five minutes from that moment it will cross Approx 130 Kms (Simple mathematics).. Now, let us say that the Foxbat turns back half way and returns to india, it still have crossed over 75 kms into Pakistani Airspace within 2.5 Minutes.. Now you are free to calculate it on your own..
I agree that f16 can fly near 2 Machs, but that doesn't mean that f16 can outrun a Mig25 on a tail chase.. Do you think so??
Now you may rebut logically..

I mentioned the incident to point out that fact that Mig25 has been shot down before in war. Despite of its huge service ceiling it is not a unbeatable aircraft. It can be caught and can be shot down even by aircraft which cannot match its altitude.

True, Foxbat can be defeated by other fighters.. But only when it is flying at an altitude which suits the interceptor's altitude, which it wont..

Its You who need to correct facts,

''1 December, 1982– Iraqi MiG-25’s developed “Anti-F-14” tactics (later used as “Anti-F-15” tactics against the Americans). These tactics and flying at 70,000 feet at Mach 3 stymied Iranian efforts to shoot them down. That is until Major Shahram Rostami (Major Mohammad Rafiee, REO) fired an AIM-54 at a Mig-25 at 70,000 feet and Mach 2.3. Engaging at 61 miles Rostami accelerated to Mach 1.5 and climbed to 45,000 feet. At a range of 34 miles he fired. It was just inside the radar envelope and as the time to impact counted down to zero the AWG-9 HIT symbol came on. AWACS confirmed the hit as the Foxbat plummeted into the sea''

Here for more details, a record of all Iraqi air crafts lost by end of 2014.
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/country-by-country/Iraq.htm

No wrong.. Iranians claimed a hit but the foxbat flew back to its base with some 25 holes in its structure.. It was a hard landing and the Aircraft was later R/O.. You may refer the records of SIPRI and the records by the Americans after 1991US had taken over.. Iran most number of kills attributed to f4s and not f14s.. Check a neutral source.. Not a one sided source..

 

[kṣamā]

My boy, Windy is saying the Foxbat returned after a head on engagement radar lock. This has happened at least 6 times that i personally know of. Do you think the real operational details come out in the media?

Well I know that the foxbat was unchallenged in a you its sorties. The F16 they vectored where just too slow and low to do anything. Moreover they did not care anything to increase the chances of intercept but by the time they reached there position, Foxbat had done what it came for.

I have no fucking source to prove my statement. Will you take it on face value? If no then why should we take Windy too? Conspiracy theory is good pass time on his side of the border.

 

[Tipu7]

True, Foxbat can be defeated by other fighters.. But only when it is flying at an altitude which suits the interceptor's altitude, which it wont..

How many hour flying experience you have in a fighter jet?
I am no pilot, but seriously your point is

No wrong.. Iranians claimed a hit but the foxbat flew back to its base with some 25 holes in its structure.. It was a hard landing and the Aircraft was later R/O.. You may refer the records of SIPRI and the records by the Americans after 1991US had taken over.. Iran most number of kills attributed to f4s and not f14s.. Check a neutral source.. Not a one sided source..

Members like @Serpentine @SOHEIL @raptor22 will answer better how ''fake'' their claims were regarding shooting down Mig25 at 70000+ft by F14...............