Foxbat over Pakistan the facts & fiction

[A.P. Richelieu]

yeah yeah in your dream even Soviets hadn't intercepted SR-71 flight over their land wake up from your dream sir what a joke good one

From an article in a swedish defence magazine.

The article presents an interview with the former Viggen division leader, Per-Olof Eldh. The article is about near encounters with the SR-71 Blackbird near swedish airspace. He recalls one time as they where practicing airdefense over Gotland (an island outside the eastcoast of Sweden) but suddenly where interupted by the command central to intercept a target moving towards them, coming from the near costal area south of Stockholm. Per-Olof was guided to an direct attack at a target flying at 21500 meters (about 65 000 feet). His radar locked on at maximum distance,and the primary weapon selected was the Rb 71 Skyflash, and by the numbers presented to him he knew that it could only be a Mig 25 or the SR-71. As the contact came closer he could eventually see the gray siluette of an SR-71 passing a couple of 1000 meters above. Per-Olofs altitude is claimed to still be classified. But he says that he was higher then he had ever been before, and the sky turned black instead of the usual blueish colour. Since that day they had several contacts with the SR-71. They often flew very close to swedish airspace. coming from the east just south of Öland at mach 3, decreasing speed to mach 2.56 to make the turn and head south along the swedish coast, accelerating between the islands Gotland and Öland. Per-olof says that he made 5 encounters during his time as an active pilot.

The usual way to make an intercept was to climb up to 8000 meter, turn around and head north back towards Stockholm, accelerating to maximum speed and altitude. The later evaluations told them that they would have succeded in shooting down the aircraft if they had used their missiles.

Laugh is on You...
Plenty of written documentation on this, in printed literature and can be googled.

https://www.amazon.com/Lockheed-Blackbird-Missions-General-Aviation/dp/1846038464

 

[ghazi768]

then why SR-71 wasn't intercepted by Soviets, explain me?

I told you want I heard. They were most probably flying on a path used earlier and may be decreasing altitude too. Russians are also quoted to have fired SAMs at them and twice those got nearer than SR-71 crews were comfortable with. That's the best I know and my be just hearsay I heard and nothing more.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Why do we Pakistanis and Indians need to dig out a few skeletons out of past and than debate it out to oblivion.

The issue with tackling Indian Mig-25s was either rules of engagement or shorter response time and not inability to shoot them down. We off-cource had AIM-7s and these are them same ones USAF used to shoot a few Mig-25s in first gulf war. The issue was that either they would enter supersonic and than exit quickly over border and/or the issue of much stricter rules of engagement during peace-time with approval going way up-to the top. Other-wise it was not at all tough to shoot down a high flying jet with huge RCS like Mig-25 showing like a scar on screen.

On the other hand, I had an opportunity to study Iraqi Mig-25s engagements with USAF in first gulf war and I was pretty impressed by skills of those Iraqi pilots. They not only evaded many BVR missiles but also tried to get the fight to USAF fighters on many occasions and even shot down an F-18 of USN.

But Mig-25 is essentially a long range interceptor designed for Soviet's problem of too large and empty spaces to defend, this is the same role which is being performed by its recent incarnation Mig-31. But because of these requirements, both jets are very heavy and far less agile than other jets like F-14/15/16. Mig-25 also lacked the excellent radar and longer range BVR AAMs in Mig-31. Thinking that some how being able to fly 10-20 thousand feet above than F-16s some how make a Mig safe from a BVR or WVR missile is just childish and nothing more.

So lets put to rest this stupid debate, both airforces are capable to repeatedly break sound barrier over Lahore or Amritsar if they want. It at best will result in a headline grabbing story for media and at worst a shot down fighter jet.


This is not correct, Swedish air defence command's radar operators were able to at-least once place a Viggen or some other jet right in the flight path of an SR-71. They boasted about even receiving a certificate or some commendation letter from SR-71's crew. It was a big thing in those times, being able to some how get in a position to intercept an SR-71.

They got a postcard from the SR-71 crew congratulating them on the intercept,
but it turned out to be a prank by the radar operators, LOL.

 

[Ultima Thule]

From an article in a swedish defence magazine.

The article presents an interview with the former Viggen division leader, Per-Olof Eldh. The article is about near encounters with the SR-71 Blackbird near swedish airspace. He recalls one time as they where practicing airdefense over Gotland (an island outside the eastcoast of Sweden) but suddenly where interupted by the command central to intercept a target moving towards them, coming from the near costal area south of Stockholm. Per-Olof was guided to an direct attack at a target flying at 21500 meters (about 65 000 feet). His radar locked on at maximum distance,and the primary weapon selected was the Rb 71 Skyflash, and by the numbers presented to him he knew that it could only be a Mig 25 or the SR-71. As the contact came closer he could eventually see the gray siluette of an SR-71 passing a couple of 1000 meters above. Per-Olofs altitude is claimed to still be classified. But he says that he was higher then he had ever been before, and the sky turned black instead of the usual blueish colour. Since that day they had several contacts with the SR-71. They often flew very close to swedish airspace. coming from the east just south of Öland at mach 3, decreasing speed to mach 2.56 to make the turn and head south along the swedish coast, accelerating between the islands Gotland and Öland. Per-olof says that he made 5 encounters during his time as an active pilot.

The usual way to make an intercept was to climb up to 8000 meter, turn around and head north back towards Stockholm, accelerating to maximum speed and altitude. The later evaluations told them that they would have succeded in shooting down the aircraft if they had used their missiles.

Laugh is on You...
Plenty of written documentation on this, in printed literature and can be googled.

https://www.amazon.com/Lockheed-Blackbird-Missions-General-Aviation/dp/1846038464

Laugh is still on You... sir if Soviets can't intercept SR-71, you have none and Soviet is far more advance in the military technology in that era

I told you want I heard. They were most probably flying on a path used earlier and may be decreasing altitude too. Russians are also quoted to have fired SAMs at them and twice those got nearer than SR-71 crews were comfortable with. That's the best I know and my be just hearsay I heard and nothing more.

if Soviets can't intercept SR-71, they have none

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I told you want I heard. They were most probably flying on a path used earlier and may be decreasing altitude too. Russians are also quoted to have fired SAMs at them and twice those got nearer than SR-71 crews were comfortable with. That's the best I know and my be just hearsay I heard and nothing more.

As mentioned, they had to slow down to Mach 2,54 to make a turn to stay over International Waters.
Also flying at 65,000 feet (max 80,000) in the example mentioned.
Since the corridor of International Waters where they pass is only 3,2 km wide, it is not so hard
to guess where they will be.

Still Viggen could apparently accelerate while climbing with a few percent.
Max altitude have never been revealed.
Beeing the first fighter with full digital control may have helped.

Laugh is still on You... sir if Soviets can't intercept SR-71, you have none and Soviet is far more advance in the military technology in that era


if Soviets can't intercept SR-71, they have none

That is why it is mentioned in the book on SR-71 missions.
Maybe You should change Your membership from "full member" to "full retard"
if you cannot accept documented events.

Sweden had the most advanced fighter control system (Stril 60) for along time.
Much better than the Soviet and NATO equivalents.
The Soviets could not stop a German guy flying over all of the Soviet, landing on the Red Square!

I even remember reading about the intercept in the morning newspaper!

Sweden also got fighters up in no time.
Remember a pilot which was reprimanded for beeing slow, and
next time he was sitting waiting in his J-35 Draken interceptor in the Hangar.
When the alert came he lit the afterburner inside the hangar and took off on the taxi strip.
Burned a hole in the hangar, but for sure he was not late.

 

[Ultima Thule]

As mentioned, they had to slow down to Mach 2,54 to make a turn to stay over International Waters.
Also flying at 65,000 feet (max 80,000) in the example mentioned.
Since the corridor of International Waters where they pass is only 3,2 km wide, it is not so hard
to guess where they will be.

Still Viggen could apparently accelerate while climbing with a few percent.
Max altitude have never been revealed.
Beeing the first fighter with full digital control may have helped.


That is why it is mentioned in the book on SR-71 missions.
Maybe You should change Your membership from "full member" to "full retard"
if you cannot accept documented events.

Sweden had the most advanced fighter control system (Stril 60) for along time.
Much better than the Russian and NATO equivalents.

I even remember reading about the intercept in the morning newspaper!

Sweden also got fighters up in no time.
Remember a pilot which was reprimanded for beeing slow, and
next time he was sitting waiting in his J-35 Draken interceptor in the Hangar.
When the alert came he lit the afterburner inside the hangar and took off on the taxi strip.
Burned a hole in the hangar, but for sure he was not late.

AND i called you, you are FULL "WISHFUL THINKER" and "WET DREAMER"

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

AND i called you, you are FULL "WISHFUL THINKER" and "WET DREAMER"

When in panic when in doubt, run in circles scream and shout!

 

[Ultima Thule]

When in panic when in doubt, run in circles scream and shout!

just give one answer why Soviets wasn't intercept SR-71, when they were miles a heads in military technology from you in the cold war because they are not sewdeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees you have no answer for me now and you have no logic

 

[DJ_Viper]

Crotales are short range and useless missile

Cortales are like paper-weights. They can scare papers that they are heavy, but when you put them on, all papers go like, crap, I was scared for no reason . Cortales are just like that. They scare the incoming aircraft of a "lock" but if you do two roles to break it, the incoming missile will pass you by like a mile and won't come back

When in panic when in doubt, run in circles scream and shout!

I didn't realize we were all 2nd grade students. This looks weird reading on a topic created for serious discussions like the F-16's vs. the Foxbats!

 

[Basel]

i read it 1000 times, it is outdated system, above 60,000 ft it is impossible to intercept MIG-25 with this system

@waz @Windjammer please educate this guy, how high HQ-2 can hit and how it was meant to be used.

 

[Allen Iverson]

Had you bothered to read the article before habitually posting just for the sake of it, you would understand the practice.
There was a reason for the Foxbat to turn tail and head home....and no the MiG-25 wouldn't dare enter deep into Pakistan since all the strategic assets are protected by high altitude SAMs...and fighter being present is enough to rattle any week end warrior from show boating.

Can you tell me which type of SAM Pakistan had in its arsenal?? And what was the service ceiling and Range of those SAMs..?

In Iraq Iran war, Iranian F14 scored kills on Mig25 flying at high altitude (70000+ft) on recon mission ......

did Pakistan have F14s too??? That's a News to me..

The only fairy here is you and a butt hurt one at that. your stupid Canberra pilot thought the same before his a$$ got flamed and the Foxbat pilot was well aware of it and he didn't stick around to find out.
And no this is not my creation, but i guess you people can't digest anything other than all the BS your media feeds you.

This thread is about Mig25 over paksitani Airspace.. Canberra story we may bring in for some other time.. If the story is not your creation then show us a Credible source from where you got this.. Using languages such as (Butt Hurt, A$$) doesn't quite fit your profile.. If you have proper rebuts, you may provide it for a civilian discussion, else, you may pls stay calm for goodness sake..
Now in my previous post I've asked you to quote details on your SAM back in 1997.. If you care to give that, then we may continue this discussion further..

Service ceiling of both F14 & F16 is very much similar.
You missed my point as usual,
So chill .......

First of all lets clear some facts.. F14s did not shoot down any Iraqi Mig25 during Iran Iraq war as per SIPRI records.. Even as per Iran records, the Iranians claimed to have shot down one Mig25 but the service ceiling was not claimed as 70,000 Ft. it was a sneak attack which happened when the pilot returned to his base and the f14 had a gun kill on the Mig25 and the service ceiling of this encounter was around 35,000 feet as per Iranian record.. Where in the hell did you get those fancy numbers??
And secondly coming to the point, an aircraft which is certified to fly at 50,000 Ft as service ceiling may fly one or two thousand more, but even then at the Risk of compressor stall.. But as per your Pakistani Fanboys, your fighters can fly almost twice the service ceiling certified by the Manufacturer.. May be in your Pakistani stories it can happen, but not in reality..
And one more, even if the F16's have managed to cruise on to the Mig25, the distance between mig25 and f16 were around 75kms, and PAF had nothing in its inventory to counter that, on a tail chase mode with a far powerful aircraft in terms of speed, than an f16.. Now get that into your head..

Because as the article states they flew near Indo-Pak border area.
Never deep in our airspace.

By the time your F16s scrambled it must have been few minutes untill they kick in thier afterburners and get to that altitude of 50,000 feet and do you know how much distance a Mig25 flying at close to mach 2 can cross over inside in that few minutes..??? If you know, then you wont stay in this thread for discussions..

Windy, which SAMs did you guys have in 1997? I'll tell you:

Crotale : Flight ceiling VT-1: 6,000 m, Mk3: 9,000 m

The rest were just MANPADS and AA guns. Needless to say, none could reach an altitude of 70,000 ft!

So your contention that your VAs/VPs were well protected by SAMs etc is incorrect. You had nothing in your inventory which could even come close to a Foxbat.

I also asked the same question, but he didn't rebut.. I know, he will be all flaming when he has something to say, but when we counter him with facts, he will be gone.. @OrionHunter @Windjammer

 

[wiseone2]

Let me state a fact.
F-14s, the MiG-25 killer, was pitted in aggressor exercises against Vipers. And Vipers would emerge victorious in the WVR combat.
If a Viper can track you on it's radar, or even catches a glimpse of you, your chances of survival fall heavily.

F-15 was built specifically to counter the MiG-25

 

[amardeep mishra]

Cobras draw first blood as an Indian Canberra on a reconnaissance mission is shot down.

The Indians were cooking up something (They had completed the arrangements for a series of underground nuclear tests at Pokhran) and for that they were keen to know how Pakistan would react. On the other hand they also wanted to know about the operational status of the F-16 operations in Pakistan.

It was not a surprise when in May 1997, PAF radars picked up a high altitude track near the border. Two F-16s were immediately scrambled and vectored on to the possible path of the track which was now identified as an Indian MiG-25R flying at 70,000 ft. Initial vectors were passed to the F-16s as they prepared to initiate their zoom climb. The track was declared hostile as soon as it crossed the border into Pakistan. The APG-66 radar of the lead F-16 painted the track at a range of 92 km which continued to move inside Pakistan Air Space. The F-16s immediately initiated their zoom climb and climbed rapidly up to 50,000 ft. The mutual distance was reduced to less than 50 km and the F-16s were still climbing when they were told to disengage as the Foxbat had banked sharply, back into Indian Airspace. May it be haste (according to us) or an intension to rub our noses (according to the Indians), the Foxbat broke the sound barrier before exiting, making this engagement public.

History might have repeated itself had the Foxbat pressed on with the intrusion (In the past, an IAF Canberra continued to carry out its probing mission with two F-86 Sabres attempting an interception and were successful when the Canberra lost its height during a turn). The Indian pilot was well aware that if the F-16s were positioned 8 km below his aircraft, he would be in the firing range of the AIM-9L Sidewinder. Under these circumstances, any evasive maneuvering can make him loose his height and bring him into the clutches of the predators, lurking below him. It was this reason that he wisely disengaged rather than toy around with the F-16s.

The Indian MiG-25 Foxbat carried out various reccee missions near and over the Indo-Pak border in the past, but it never ventured deep into our airspace. The major reason was the fear of being shot down by the Pakistani Air Defenses. In the media it was claimed that nothing in the PAF is capable of reaching the cruising altitude of the MiG-25. To some extent this was true, but correct placement by the radar controller can always put it in danger of being shot down by Sidewinders. Similarly, PAF had the high altitude SAMs placed at VP/VAs to engage the Foxbat. It was for the F-16 and its reliable avionics and weapons' suite due to which it increased the probability of a Foxbat kill, and the Foxbat could never be utilized as intended by the Indians (Unopposed roaming deep inside Pakistan Airspace). USAF Vipers in DACT had outmaneuvered both the MiG-23 and MiG-25 in head-to-head tests, reaching speeds of up to Mach 2 at 60,000 ft ('Making of the Viper' Page 47), the PAF Vipers were fit enough to reach 60,000 ft. and take a shot at the Foxbat.

@Windjammer

Hi dear,let me shed some light on this whole foxbat episode. Mig25 were never meant to engage other aircraft in dogfight. The manuvrebility of foxbat is just pathetic.But as an interceptor,it could do its job pretty well -for instance superior climb rate and acceleration.Now let's imagine a hypothetical situation shall we?
First Let's consider
1)head on engagement-
Let's imagine a foxbat is about to enter the Pakistani airspace,f16 are scrambled as foxbat enters Pakistani airspace,considering the climb rate of viper with full load of AIM9L and fuel,it'll roughly take 1.5-1.8minutes to get to its flight ceiling of 60000fts. By that time foxbat would have covered 84-99kms flying at 80000ft and 2.8M. Now the closure rate between the jets and between missile and foxbat would be 4.3 and 5.5M respectively. Obviously in such a favourable scenario missile would have a higher probability of intercept but wait,missile would have to first spend energy to reach to the altitude of 80000ft,which roughly translates to 5.1 million joules(considering the mass of side winder to be 85kgs and when fired from 60000ft). Now this 5.1 million joules should be supplied from the main motor and hence its effective range would be decreased,matters will become worse if foxbat is manuvering because inherently nearly all missiles employ proportional guidance or its derivatives which means missile would have to position itself such that the line of sight angle remains constant- this means every time foxbat makes a manuvre,the missile will have to adjust itself to drive the line of sight angle to a constant. I'm not saying it'll be impossible for sidewinder to intercept ,it'll b just a bit difficult.
Of course things will change dramatically if foxbat a was flying slower or God forbid at a lower altitude.But since Indian foxbats were flying in clean configuration with just the camera ,I think there is no harm in assuming that they could fly at 80000ft and 2.8M.after all the recce versions could indeed fly that way.

2)tail chase-
Now let's imagine foxbat pilot chickened out and initiated a roll and turned to India.in this case,although the engine is facing the missile seeker but the closure rate is -0.1M(kindly note I'm considering 2.7M for missile and 2.8M for foxbat). Which means missile is slower than the foxbat.No matter what happens,in this case missile will never be able to make to foxbat and foxbat survives to fly another day. To intercept foxbat we'd need closure rate in favour of missile which means Mach number greater than 2.8.Also note that minor Mach advantage in favour of missile wouldn't really help here because we have to account for energy bleeding of missile thanks to proportional guidance scheme. Every time foxbat makes a manuvre,missile would have to respond in order to drive the line of slight angle constant.kindly note that in proportional guidance the lateral acceleration of missile is slaved to the rate of change of line of sight angle

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

just give one answer why Soviets wasn't intercept SR-71, when they were miles a heads in military technology from you in the cold war because they are not sewdeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees you have no answer for me now and you have no logic

I think the the real problem is that it reflect bad on the PAF, that it could not intercept the MiG-25 over Islamabad,
while Sweden could intercept the much harder to catch SR-71 regularily using an indigenous fighter.

I have presented source. Buy the book.
You are now ignored.

 

[DJ_Viper]

The US stopped their SR-71 flights over Sweden, when we showed them that we could shoot them down
with a JA-37 Viggen.
The flights were predictable, so the Viggen could wait at high altitude, and it only had a single Sky Flash
for minimum weight/drag, but it was doable.

Your history is extremely vague. The US stopped the U-2 and SR-71 fights due to a Russian threat of direct confrontation back in the Cold way. Which could've went nuke. But, they then started to use Pakistani air-bases in the North West to conduct those flights and used a few U-2's in that time.